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npila1

Bottom sitting and white tail after flubendazole

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  • * Ammonia Level=0 ppm
  • * Nitrite Level=0ppm
  • * Nitrate level<5 ppm
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 8, 110, 200
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.2, 35, 35
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? api drops
  • * Water temperature? 71
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 40 gallons
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? aquaclear 110
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? recently, 3-4 times a week, 75%

  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? yesterday, 75%
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? right now 1 (4.5-5 inches) - I moved Twinkle to a 20-gallon yesterday
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? prime
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? twice a day, omega pellets, peas, veggie rounds
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? no
  • * Any medications added to the tank? yes flubendazole - started treatment last thursday, tried to remove it yesterday (added carbon and did 75% wc)
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? white part on tail with red streaks
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? bottom sitting

Twinkle was having some fluke symptoms (head twitching, flashing), so I added flubendazole. Three days later, she started bottom sitting with her fins clamped and she looked very weak. She kept getting worse. I added carbon and did large wc to remove the flubendazole but she didn't get better, so I moved her to a clean and sterilized 20-gallon tank yesterday. Sparkle was acting completely normal, until this afternoon when he started bottom sitting with his fins clamped. In the morning, he was active and happy. Also, TODAY I saw that the upper part of his tail had turned white (instead of orange) and he had some blood streaks. Could this be an effect of the medication even though I removed it (or though I removed it) yesterday?

I'm really at a loss here because they were both much better before the treatment and they seem to be getting worse and worse.

Edit: Here is a photo of Sparkle's tail: http://s932.photobucket.com/albums/ad163/npila1/?action=view&current=DSC_2567.jpg

Edited by npila1

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I think sometimes medications can kill off good bacteria so you possibly experienced a cycle crash...your running an Aqua clear 110? Is that 110 gallons per hour? Your slightly under filtered I think?? And then medication can kill off the bacteria. I know sometimes fish will start fin flicking and twitching from ammonia as well...though you tested at 0 for ammonia...and red streaks are also ammonia sometimes.

hrmmmm I personally would start doing daily waterchanges for sure for a bit.

Im not sure I would have to look but I think color fading is also a side affect, I remember reading an article on it once.

But im not an expert so one of them might have a better clue =)

Edited by lwebe10

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Iwebe, AquaClear changed their nomenclature, and now reflects what they think is appropriate for the size of tank. So the AC110 is supposed to be sufficient for up to 110 gallons, although that of course won't be true depending on the fish. In any case, the AC110 has a theoretical max output of 500gph. :)

Flubendazole is a de-wormer, and shouldn't impact the bio-filter, much in the same way praziquantel does not. However, as always, it is important to check.

Npila, I am wondering if there is actually some parasite issue, and the fish are miserable from that. I would give it a couple days, and follow Iwebe's excellent suggestion of daily big water changes. This will only help :)

Keep us updated!

Btw, UK members who use Wormer Plus, have you experienced anything like this? I've used flubendazole twice, and have not seen this effect.

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Thanks, I did test the ammonia and it was 0, and I have done 75% wc every day for the past 3 days, but I will do another one today.

If they were bottom sitting because of a heavy parasite load, wouldn't they also have other symptoms like scratching and twitching? Sparkle hasn't had any of that.

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OOOH wow so someone saying they grabbed 2 of those 110s for 22 bucks now seems like an even BIGGER deal. Off topic...Question...did you maintain the same amount of water changes during treatment? And then re-treat the water? I know sometimes they want the treatment to sit in the water for a few days so its hard to and not do water changes...or if you try and compensate by adding additional medication possible to over medicate?

just curious =)

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The twitching and scratching are attempts to brush off external issues. If it's internal, it's doubtful they would do that.

Do you have baby spinach? Cook it really well and feed it to them, just to make sure they aren't constipated and to push through the system.

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I tried to replace the amount of flubendazole I was adding. The recommended amount is 1/2 to 1/4 per 20 gallons and I was adding enough to maintain it at the lower dose (1/2 tsp for my 40 gallon tank). Is that what you were asking?

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The twitching and scratching are attempts to brush off external issues. If it's internal, it's doubtful they would do that.

Do you have baby spinach? Cook it really well and feed it to them, just to make sure they aren't constipated and to push through the system.

The twitching and scratching are attempts to brush off external issues. If it's internal, it's doubtful they would do that.

Do you have baby spinach? Cook it really well and feed it to them, just to make sure they aren't constipated and to push through the system.

I don't have spinach but I can give them peas. I don't think it's internal though because they have good poops (chunky brown) and they have great appetite. Even now that they are sitting, if I show them the food they ran up to me and jump around like crazy.

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I think then it's most likely the after effects of the meds. I would just give them daily water changes. You can add 0.1% salt to the tank to help them, if you like.

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I think then it's most likely the after effects of the meds. I would just give them daily water changes. You can add 0.1% salt to the tank to help them, if you like.

I just did another wc and will continue until I see improvement as you suggested. I will also add new carbon to hopefully take out any leftover medication. Did you use carbon to remove the flubendazole when you used it?

P.S. For anyone interested in flubendazole, feel free to take a look at this page: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?30488-Flubendazole-side-effect.

It seems that this medication works really well for some people but others lose a lot of fish from it...

Edited by npila1

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Good luck! I've never used carbon for that purpose. Only WCs.

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I have a feeling that the Flubendazole is the problem here as i recently lost both of my new additions and the only thing different in the tank was wormer plus. I would now advise that UK members use caution when using this product and only use it as a last resort. I have used this product for a number of years now both on my tropical and goldfish tanks with no adverse effects. As a rule i used it twice a year although the packet does state that it can be used as regularly as every month. Once my new goldfish (Gandalf and Galadriel) had gone through the 2 weeks of prazi and salt they settled in nicely and everything was going along perfectly. It was time to do my 6 monthly dose of wormer plus and when i added it to the tank things started going wrong the very next day. Gandalf was covered in excess slime 24 hours after adding the dose. He stopped eating and i put him in the 10 gallon QT tank. The next day i awoke to the worst case of fin rot i had ever seen. Gandalfs tail was almost gone to the extent that the actuall spines were falling off. He stopped eating and after a week had virtually no fins what so ever. I was adding pimafix and melafix to the water daily but this had no effect whatsoever. Julies dad put her to sleep as i was at work. I was devasted. The next day Galadriel showed the exact same symptoms and although the fins were not affected this time she was covered in excess slime coat and stopped eating also. Even tried adding garlic to the food then after that didn't work i tried hand feeding soaked pellets with plastic tweezers. On day 7 her spine was curved in to a C shape and i had to put her to sleep also. I can't think what may have caused this. My parameters were 0,0,10 and PH was a steady 7.4. The only thing added to the tank was Wormer plus although if anyone can shed any light on what they think might have caused this i would be glad to hear their thoughts. Frodo acted his normal self throughout. I will be getting no more goldfish as this really hit me hard. 2 beautiful and healthy fish gone in 2 weeks :(

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Alistair, I'm really sorry you lost them both, and it's really worrying :(

From what I know of flubendazole, it is supposed to be very safe and toxicity isn't achieved unless it's 1 order of magnitude higher than recommended dosage. Have you contacted Kusuri to ask them? More recently, I've been suggesting Fluke-Solve instead of WormerPlus, simply because I think we have a tad more experience as a group with Praziquantel.

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Thanks Alex. I don't know if i had a bad batch or it was even the Wormer Plus that was the cause. I have been meaning to email the vet at Plymouth Discus and it is on my things to do list but with the new baby and being back at work this week it's like there isn't enough hours in the day. I would assume that the Prazi and salt they were QT'd with would rule out most of the common parasites/bacteria that i would expect to tag along with a new fish. The rate of the fin loss on Gandalf was astounding and i have certainly never seen anything like it before.

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Please let us know what the vet says when it gets to that!

How is the baby? We need pics! :D

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Will do. I have lots and lots of pics and will post some shortly :)

Julie took some pictures of Gandalf on her mobile as i was at work, the quality isn't great.

This was 24 hours after we noticed excess slime coat appearing.

24hoursafterwormerplus.jpg

This is 4 days later and most of his tail is gone. He was bottom sitting, not eating and barely moving.

Copyof4days.jpg

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Unfortunately, I've seen that type of rot before, and salt doesn't really cut it. In the past, the only thing that might have made a difference is an aggressive broad spectrum antibiotic.

I wonder if the WormerPlus did work, but the extent of flukes infection resulted in an overwhelming secondary bacterial infection.

Looking forward to the baby pics! :)

Edited by dnalex

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Unfortunately, I've seen that type of rot before, and salt doesn't really cut it. In the past, the only thing that might have made a difference is an aggressive broad spectrum antibiotic.

I wonder if the WormerPlus did work, but the extent of flukes infection resulted in an overwhelming secondary bacterial infection.

Looking forward to the baby pics! :)

I can't see how there would be any flukes present at all as both of my fish were QT'd for 2 weeks and treated with Fluke-Solve and 0.3% salt.

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Oh, I had not realized you had treated with fluke solve prior to that :o

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