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Jennie

Suzy's Sick

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    Test Results for the Following:
  • * Ammonia Level: 0
  • * Nitrite Level: 0
  • * Nitrate level: 10-20 (closer to 10, before water change)
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7.6
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?: API drops
  • * Water temperature?: 76F
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?: 55 gallons, 5 months
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?: AC 70, AC110
  • * How often do you change the water and how much?: Once a week, 50% plus

  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?: Today, about 70%. Previously, last Saturday.
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size?: 1, about 4 inches. She's an oranda.
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners?: Amquel Plus
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often?: Omega One, peas, zuchinni, frozen bloodworms occasionally.
  • * Any new fish added to the tank?: No.
  • * Any medications added to the tank?: Salt 0.1% last Saturday
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.: Salt when I lost poor Olivia last June
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?: Frayed caudal fins a bit - raggedy around edges. Popeye?
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?: Less active than usual. Less appetite than usual. Long clear stringy poop. Food in some, but not in all.

Hello all. I hope you can help me with Suzy.

I have been concerned about her for a couple of weeks. This may be unrelated, but a couple of weeks ago (10/15) she had a long, clear, bubbly poop. I looked it up on Koko's poop page, and it said constipation. So I fasted her a couple of days, and then fed peas. She seemed alright after that.

Then on 10/22, I noticed her tail fins looked a little raggedy. I added Morton's pickling salt to .01%.

Her tail looks about the same today, maybe a little better.

The last couple of days, she's had lots of long stringy poop, mostly clear but some food in it - one as long as I'd say 10 inches! Now I believe she's developing fluid rings around her eyes, particularly the left one (the side she doesn't want me to photograph, apparently!)

No food today - yesterday a zucchini slice, which she didn't eat with her usual enthusiasm - just pecked at it some.

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Poop stuck on a plant (sorry about water spots, but you can see the silvery part too, above the food part):

016.jpg

Hope you can give me some advice. There is, of course, some salt remaining in the tank (I haven't added more, but I did about a 70% w/c about an hour ago).

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Hi Jennie,

i am sorry to hear that suzie isn't well. yes, it looks like fluid rings, but to me, she also looks bloated, so i am thinking she may be eggbound. if you can do another large water change, to get all the salt out. then re-salt at 0.1% taking it up to 0.3% in 12 hour intervals, this will assist with the popeye and some swelling..

her next feed should be pea with epsom granule in it to give her a stronger laxative.. please also increase the heat in her tank to 80F..

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Hi Jennie,

i am sorry to hear that suzie isn't well. yes, it looks like fluid rings, but to me, she also looks bloated, so i am thinking she may be eggbound. if you can do another large water change, to get all the salt out. then re-salt at 0.1% taking it up to 0.3% in 12 hour intervals, this will assist with the popeye and some swelling..

her next feed should be pea with epsom granule in it to give her a stronger laxative.. please also increase the heat in her tank to 80F..

Eggbound!? ZOUNDS!!!! Stakos you are brilliant :D!!! i spent hours looking at the pic trying think of something that would make a fish swell like that!!!!!!!!!! and i agree with the medication procedure :)

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Shouldn't I salt with Epsom Salts rather than regular salt?

Also, I have both Jungle Anti-Bacterial and Anti-Parasite foods. I had thought perhaps a round of the AP might be useful.

I fed a pea with an epsom granule and raised temp to 80.

Please advise! She is active and ate the pea heartily (and a few more plain ones!)

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Hi, Jennie, Helen's suggestion of salt in the water and Epsom in the peas/food is very good. I would definitely try that.

Good luck!

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I'm sorry, but this doesn't make much sense to me. She's been in .1% salt for a week to treat raggedy fins and that is when her popeye occurred! If salt were efficacious, then the popeye wouldn't have developed, would it?

After what happened with Olivia, I am so scared to take chances, folks.

Here's what Koko said about popeye: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4110-treating-popeye/

"Posted 19 November 2003 - 09:14 PM

If his eyes look like this this is what I would do:)

1. Get a heater and raise them temp to 78F.

2. Get maracyn 2 use that as directed.

3. Use 1/8 of a teaspoon of Epsom salt per 5 gals of water just once with the whole treatment of Maracyn2.

This should be about a weeks treatment.

Then if you can go to http://www.goldfishconnection.com and get the Medigold this is an anitibotic fish food to help this."

Is this wrong?

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I think what stakos is trying to help first is the eggs compacted in the fish, if this swelling can get down, there is a good chance the rings will go down as the fish will be able to pass the water out once the eggs are absorbed :thumb:

Regular salt has helped with popeye too :thumb:

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Hi, koko! Thanks for reading!

Hah! Suzy could be Johnny Cash, for all I know! She was tiny when I got her - maybe 1.5". We just passed our one year anniversary, on October 13! So she's only a year or so old. I call her Suzy 'cause she just looks like a girl to me. I have no idea, really; I'm waiting for more evident signs.

Suzy does not look bloated to me or to my husband. Her body shape is as it usually is. Her poop is not zig-zaggy. Except for when there are food pockets in it, the poop is very silvery, thin, and long - like a thread.

So I'm thinking she's not egg bound.

Anyway, I did a 75% water change this evening, and started your treatment plan as I felt I had to do something! I did a lot of reading and your plan made the most sense to me. The only adaptation I did was to feed Jungle Anti-Parasite, as it contains Metro and I don't have any Medi-Gold or Metromeds.

I figured if anyone knows what she's doing, it's koko!!!

Thanks again. Any and all input is most appreciated!

I don't want her to dropsy, and I sure don't want to lose her.

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Jennie, I'm glad you ask questions, as you should always when something is unclear or doesn't make sense. I haven't seen Helen answer, and since she might be busy (with guest in Australia and all lol), I'll try to answer the questions. Please keep in mind that her rationale for the suggestion may be different than mine, although we both came to the same conclusion on how to treat, at least for now.

1. Salt - salt is antimicrobial, as you know, and has been shown to be effective against popeye. For popeye, 0.1% salt is really not enough, and you will need to go all the way to 0.3% for salt to work here. The same case is with ich. At 0.1%, salt probably won't work. At 0.2%, may be, and at 0.3% salt, most definitely.

2. Epsom - will help to reduce the eye swelling. (Popeye is essentially swelling of the eye).

3. Why not Medi-Gold or Maracyn 2 as Koko suggested? Sure, those will absolutely work, but Maracyn 2 will kill your tank cycle, and Medi-Gold is like using a sledgehammer. I'm not sure if you'll agree, but when possible, I think it makes much more sense to go with the gentler (non-medication approach) option.

What do you think?

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I think we need a link here to Jennies thread on Olivia :( I will add it when I hunt it down so all the background history is in one place, or maybe Jennie can.

Olivia was a fish that muddled through 3 long diagnosis threads here with salt only and died :(

I can understand why Jennie feels a more aggressive treatment may be needed here and why to us it sounds like panic but if you read through the heartbreaking story of Olivia it is very understandable and most possibly connected, as Suzy was Olivia's companion back in July when Olivia died.

The whispy poop is not egg poop. From those pics it looks like either bacterial or stressed poop. If Jennie feels her fish is the same roundness as her normal and not bloated I would think together with the lack of egg poop and egg bound floatiness it isn't egg bound.

I would try to get rid of some of the brown dioxides that look to be on the floor of the tank if you can.Do you know your GH? If you have started the Maracyn 2 then it should be completed for the 3 or 5 days as recommended on the pack. It may indeed be just what is needed here too, and as long as your GH is not too high (over 200) it can be effective for early stage pop eye. Remember, no lights on with this -as it is a light sensitive antibiotic.

Really hoping this is going to work for you and Suzy. :)

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I'm sorry, Jennie, that you are having these problems. I hope Suzy will get better ASAP with the treatments. Given the background of what's going on, I can easily see why you are anxious and why more aggressive treatments are considered. :)

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How is she doing today. ?

Whats the temp at and is she still eating? If so this is a good sign :thumb:

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Hello dnalex, Trinket, and koko! Thanks for taking time to read and reply. It's much appreciated.

dnalex: Thanks for the info re: Maracyn2 and the cycle. The package brochure claims it doesn't affect the BBs, but that doesn't seem likely. I just checked the params:

Ammonia 0

Nitrites 0

Nitrates 5

pH 7 - 7.2

Temp 80.5

koko:

Suzy's eating the Jungle AP medicated food. I just saw her eat 2 pellets and saw her eat a couple this morning and some last night. The darn things float around and she's not used to that, but she must be eating more because I don't see any on the bottom. I think it's 2 more days of this.

She's swimming around just fine. She's in the middle zone mostly but swims in all zones. No bottom sitting.

Trinket:

Yes, Olivia's illness was very sad indeed. I still have no idea what killed her - a fungus, I guess. Suzy was (apparently) unaffected and remained healthy throughout the ordeal. I believe in retrospect I should have been a stronger advocate for Olivia, as I knew something was seriously wrong with her.

So I have resolved to be a good advocate for Suzy so I can get her through this illness. I'm doing lots of research - here, of course, and on the 'net. I haven't seen any mention of eggbinding and popeye being correlated; it might be, but I haven't seen it. I have made good use of koko's Poop Page! :D

I don't see any poop in her tank today - I guess that's good as there was quite a lot before.

Her eyes look about the same to me. But she's active and eating, as I said. I am about to add the 2nd dose of Maracyn2.

Yes, the brown algae is a constant pain. I've had it for a couple months or so and I can't get rid of it. I usually scrub it off everything at w/c, but I didn't this last time (lazy). I have bought some better lights for the plants and because I read it might help with the brown diatoms. I believe when Suzy feels better I will switch her tank with the turtles' - I don't think the background has been a good choice for goldfish and I am suspicious of it.

I don't have a GH test. Are they readily available at the LFS? Anyone know? Can the LFS test for it?

Thanks for the tip on lights with Maracyn2! I didn't know that - I don't think it's mentioned on the packaging.

Thank you so much for reading, understanding, and replying!

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Oh, I see that the GH/KH test seems readily available. Will pick one up asap.

Suzy is nice and active this morning. Cute, too! :heart

I don't see any noticeable change with her eyes, but they are for sure not worse.

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Jennie, don't forget you can take a water sample to the store and get a free GH and kH test :).

Or if you decide to get the API multipack it should contain a kit. Glad to hear Suzy is active and doing well.

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Hi! I'll either get the kit or have LFS test it - probably tomorrow.

Suzy eats her medicated food (Jungle AP) eagerly. The bottle says to feed it for 3 days, then regular food 4, and repeat for a full 4 weeks.

Omega One is her staple, plus veggies. She had some normal poops today (I see them on the bottom) but she had a long non-bubbly streamer one as well with some food in it.

She is very active.

Temp is at 80F. Params are 0, 0, and 0-5 (which is a bit worrisome). I will retest tomorrow.

Eye rings may be a little less swollen. They are certainly no bigger.

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0-5 is low for nitrates, let's hope the cycle is still with you. Active is good, normal poop today is great :) Keep doing what you are doing.

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Imo & Jennie,

The directions on the Jungle AP is given for the treatment of internal parasites. Since Jennie is using the Metronidazole ingredient in the food to treat the popeye etc., should she not feed Suzy for 14 continuous days instead of 3 on and 4 off for 4 weeks?

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Oooooooooo...good point! I will continue to feed the AP then unless I hear differently. She likes it just fine now that she's figured out how to eat it.

Man, I had to take Metro (flagyl) recently. It is the bitterest thing you ever tasted - just horrible. I'm amazed she eats it, but she noms it on down.

Edited to talk about nitrAtes - yeah, it's low. I did two big water changes, one Sunday, one Monday. Now with the Maracyn2...well, I'll keep an eye on it. I hope it's okay.

Trinket - if my GH or KH are too high, are there products to help with that?

Edited by Jennie

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Man, I had to take Metro (flagyl) recently. It is the bitterest thing you ever tasted - just horrible. I'm amazed she eats it, but she noms it on down.

Suzy is a champ! In the past, when I've had to feed my fish Jungle AP, they all did not appreciate it at all lol.

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