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Imber

Half Of Squishface's Wen Has Turned Blood Red

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Yesterday Morning Squishface looked normal. Yesterday afternoon half of her wen had turned blood red. Something that may or may not be relevant is that our AC was broken for a few days so her temperatures were up and I tried to keep her cool with ice packs, but her tank did get up to about 82 at the highest.

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level? 0

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? low 5-10

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 8

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7.4

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? api drops + a strip test to make sure

[*]Water temperature? 78 now

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 10, a few years

[*]What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 100gph not sure of the brand

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? weekly 50-80%

[*]how many days ago was the last water change and how much? This morning, 80% but the water readings were from the w/c bucket

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 1, 3 inch body probably 5-6 inches with her tail

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? prime

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? Aqueon Goldfish Granules 1-2 times a day, peas, algae wafers

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? No

[*]Any medications added to the tank? I salted 3 tbsps with the water change

[*]List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. When I first got her she was half dead and covered in parasites so I salt and pp dipped her. This was extreme, but I knew that if I didn't try to take out as many as those bugs as possible she would die from them in a day or two anyway. This was 1.5 years ago. Since then I've prazi'd and salt treated her once when she seemed to be doing more bottom-sitting. I think she's just one of those fish that tends to nap during the day then get up and make a lot of noise at night though.

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Half of her wen has turned blood red. She has some red spots on her tail too, but she gets those from time to time. She's had a lot of wen growth recently and her eyes have become nearly covered. They look a little strange, but I think it's just the extra growth. I worry that she has popeye and I can't see it. Also, when I first got her I thought she was dropsying but have come to realize that her scales just don't quite fit right so they look a little rough. On any other fish seeing an outline of scales would have alarmed me, but she's always been like that.

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? She's eating and pooping. Her poo has been long, thick and brown(so I gave her a pea today). She had a little bit of Zig-zagging a couple of days ago so probably egg reabsorption triggered by the extra heat. She seems a little more lethargic than usual, but she gets up and forages around and eats when I come in the room. I should also mention that she went through a color change a couple of months ago from orange and white to completely white. Her light fixture broke and it took me a couple of weeks to get a new one so that probably contributed to the turning white. Oh and she only has 2 silk plants, her heater and her filter tube in her tank so she could have bonked it on something but there's nothing to get stuck in.

squishface3.jpg

squishface2.jpg

squishface1.jpg

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Wow if I didn't know better I would have thought she was a red capped oranda!

For now I would just keep doing what you're doing. Keep the temp stable, do frequent water changes and keep the salt in there. Keep a very close eye for signs of things getting worse, but I wouldn't do anything else just yet.

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It looks like she has a pretty nasty bacterial infection, most likely Staph. Do you have access to medicated food, such as Jungle anti-bacterial or Medi-gold? Also, if you can, swab the affected area with hydrogen peroxide.

I would also do as close to 100% WCs as possible at least once daily. This is important to get rid of the excess bacteria.

If it is indeed Staph, the wen unfortunately will start to collapse within the next few days. :(

I'm sorry you are having issues. She is adorable.

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how fast did it happen? The only thing I ever saw (in a book) which sort of resembled this was a fish with a tumor who got half of his face turn black.

How do you know it is an infection in the wen alex? I am so lost with wenned ones! Is it like when the body turns pinkish?

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This one is probably a little easier to see, because she is lemon/white. My understanding is that the dark red ulcer coming from under the wen is characteristic of Staph. The thing about wens is that things can and do get trapped in there.

I agree with Chrissy in that it's important not to jump into a treatment precipitously. The salt is good for now.

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She looked fine yesterday morning at around 10 AM(wen was still all white) then when I checked at around 3 PM she looked like this. She does get those viral cyst things from time to time - the waxy white ones(I probably should have mentioned this in the original post). I just step up the water changes and they go away. I have medigold, but it's old so I put an order in last night for medigold and metromeds because I like to keep them around the house and in case this was something that needed them.

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wow alex. then the wen falls off? that is awful. Hope this won't be the case!

You could do some sort of dip or bath before internal meds. Like a Potassium Permanganate bath? That would help kill off surface bacteria and such. Not sure how deep in the wen it goes. It is weird how the line is totally symmetrical tho. I will post a pic of the fish I was talking about in 5

ScreenShot2011-08-03at61952PM.png

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Personally, I think you should wait a little (of course if things get dramatically worse quickly that's another story). The food is ordered so that is good, if this persists or gets worse then you have that option of starting meds when they arrive. Dips can be very hard on fish, and given that this is UNDER the wen the chances of an external treatment helping are less than if it was somewhere else on the body or if there were open sores. Whereas the salt will be in the water for a longer period and will have a chance to act on the fish over time, without being too harsh. The fish has already gone through some stress with the temperature fluctuations, you wouldn't want to push her by making that worse.

Is there anything in your tank that might be harboring bacteria? (decoration, gravel, etc)?

Edited by Chrissy_Bee

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The wen collapses, like it's caving in. It looks to me like there are smaller spots at other parts of the wen. You can see the red dots.

Imber, the PP may be very helpful if you have any around.

I've taken the liberty to attach a link to Rick if GC's article on hole in the wen, which I believe this is

http://www.goldfishconnection.com/articles/details.php?articleId=131&parentId=12

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I'm so sorry that your little squishface is having trouble. I assume the name is from Sealab and that makes me want to root for squishface even more!

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Her tank is very basic with a bare bottom and just her 2 silk plants, heater, filter intake tube and airstone so there is waterflow through pretty much everything. When I was putting ice packs in her tank, I double bagged them with freezer bags and left the outside bag(which was new to begin with) in her tank so that no outside contact was made with anything but that bag, but there's the possibility that it introduced something bad. I do have Permoxyn if needed and a slew of other meds like biobandage if it does start to deteriorate. I have also read that tea tree oil has been shown to be affective against staph so I was wondering if melafix might help even though it's pretty diluted. I know it's generally viewed as a weak/junk med, but since it's gentle on the fish and the cycle I was wondering what your feelings would be on adding that. I don't have access to Baytril or any sort of local fish doc. I have a great vet for my furry pets though so he might be willing to sell me some Baytril if it comes down to that.

Yes her name is from Sealab :)

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I know a lot of people don't recommend Melafix, but I often do. As you said it's gentle but does have some healing/antiseptic properties. I would add it if you have it, then wait it out a little to see what happens.

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I am not at all a fan of mela or metafix. I have used it a few times and each time the fish had issues breathing. Since you have been having temp problems I wouldn't add it incase there isn't enough DO. But then if Chrissy has used it with success. Maybe I just have crazy fish :)

I would first try the PP bath in a separate tub. What is the dosing on Permoxyn? I do my baths at 2 to 4ppm for 5hrs.

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I don't have any problems with Melafix, and I personally have used it before. The only reservation I have is that it looks like we are going to have to go with a medicated food. Given that, I prefer to just feed with medicated food and multiple WCs. The WCs kinda make moot adding most things in the water.

How is the wen holding up? Does it look like it's de-stabilizing?

Edit: I just looked up the instructions for Permoxyn. The final concentration after adding to the bath is 5ppm.

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That is the complaint I've heard about Melafix, that the oil coats the gills and causes breathing issues. I've never observed that myself and I've used it a few times. In each case it was for the treatment of minor wounds and seemed to help healing..or if anything did no harm.

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It still looks like it does in the picture and when I was holding her for pictures it felt like a normal wen. My upside-down bottom sinker Ziggy(RIP) who some of you might remember used to get a lot of wen infections from him scooting it on the bottom so I got a lot of wen swabbing/feeling experience with him. This all seems to be underneath though unlike his where he'd just get a little surface sore.

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I've used Melafix in the past (mostly with Bettas but with a few goldies as well) and I never had any issue with it.

If you don't see or feel any holes or other type of wound, I would go with the salt like Chrissy said. Do that for a few weeks with good w/cs (make sure you add back what you take out) and give that a try. If Squishface doesn't seem to have any improvement then I would up it to something a tad stronger. I've also read that warmer water helps with the salt treatment so maybe while the a/c is out you could try that.

Like Chrissy said, you don't want to stress the poor thing out too much.

Suggestion: Crazy color change? Unlikely to happen so quickly, but goldfish are strange creatures :P lol

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I considered the color change as well, as unlikely as it is. Years ago we had a heat wave (SO rare for these parts) and our black moor turned orange in about 4 days!

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My :twocents

Melafix if a fish is having issues should only be used half dose. I have used it on half dose to help fish heal :)

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I just think it is super strange how symmetrical it is. It's not like the entire wen turned red overnight.

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I'd also advise trying the more gentle treatments like salt and (half dose) melafix before moving on to harsher treatments like PP (it may well be 'external', but that doesn't mean it's gentle. It's still a shock for the fish, likely with lasting consequences with respect to longevity).

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PP is not at all aggressive to fish. It has the same stress factor as salt. You can see the fish inside the tub hanging out totally relaxed.

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PP is not at all aggressive to fish. It has the same stress factor as salt. You can see the fish inside the tub hanging out totally relaxed.

:exactly

I actually think that salt can be more stressful at higher percentages.

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PP is illegal here, cannot even be prescribed as the vet told me. i looked into it for Sir Loyn. he said it can halve the lifespan of the fish. so i decided against it.

i would go melafix.

we are also of the understanding that salt assists many different health issues as well as helping the fish to breathe better during stressful times.

we know when there are blood streaks in fins or scrapes that are bleeding or about to bleed, we highly recommend salt and melafix. it's worked well in the past to heal issues such as these with successful results and minimal stress.

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PP, potassium permaganate, correct? This stuff kills organic matter and is used as a disinfectant with aquarium equipment. Why in the22 would you want to put your fish in a bucket of it? Diluted or no it can still be dangerous and it is still a harsh treatment.

Why is everyone jumping to the harshest treatment they can think of? When you have a tummy ache do you run to the hospital and have your appendix removed? No, you don't because that is over the top for something that could very well just be gas.

It is entirely possible that is was a fast color change or that it is internal. If it is internal then a pp dip will do nothing but stress the fish out and shorten its lifespan.

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