Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
babicake828

Orandas Don't Have Head Problems! - Informative Wen Thread

56 posts in this topic

.....??? All this really says is that they tested the removed wen and found mutated skin, spongy skin, increased pigment cells, excess mucous and body fat. This could be the described results of a benign tumor or cyst. So, again, if you look at the technical definition of tumor, all these things fit. So, as I said, adjectives need to be added to describe the tumor.

But, the thing is, ALL of our "claims" of a wen being a tumor is from an absolute strict sense of the definition. We're just being nit-picky... ;) And, as the common connotation of a tumor is of a negative nature, no one would ever really refer to a wen as a tumor. It's just a wen. Or, better yet.... a bubble hat! :teehee

Edited by Lynda Von G

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"An abnormal growth of tissue resulting from uncontrolled,"

The growth on an Oranda's or Lionhead's heads are controlled. You get goldfish who's head growth will cover the entire head and in other varieties just parts of the head. The texture of the growth can also be controlled like in a lemonhead Oranda or the single wen on a crowned Pearscale. This controlled growth can be bred into varieties. the head growth will also start to slow down if the fish get older.......the growth on most Goldfishes do make them abnormal- that's why we are keeping them.

(If you have read the article you will also have noted that the removed growth is not growing back - the skin fold was cut of and will not regrow?

progressive multiplication of cells and serving no physiological function; a neoplasm.

As already mentioned the head growth on Goldfish slow down - most tumors will keep on growing until .....death? if the growth on an Oranda's head store fat then it has a function. When starving your Goldfish it will probably use up the fat reserve? A normal tumor will grow even if you starve the victim.

I suppose, according to medical terminology, a wen would probably actually fit into the category of a "false tumor," which is described as: a "structural enlargement due to extravasation, exudation, echinococcus, or retained sebaceous matter."

If it's a false tumor it is not a tumor :P

So, again, if you look at the technical definition of tumor, all these things fit.

No.

1+1=2 .....not 1 plus something or 2 minus something. :hmm

We're just being nit-picky... ;)

It's okay. I am a high school teacher and I am used to difficult teenagers. :tomuch:

On a serious note: I also have an Oranda who's headgrowth is troubling me. The rate at which it is growing it will also cover the eyes within a year. The problem is that she is an adult and i am force feeding the other fish in the tank to get them to grow out - and she is eating as much as them so the growth is all in the wen.

I have saved the article to show the vet when the time comes.

Lennard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello, I will leave it to you guys to determine whether you want to call a wen a tumor or not. However, I would like to add this little bit - the wen growth is by no means a controlled growth. We select for fish that display this abnormal growth (abnormal because wild carp do not display this as a norm), but we cannot predict how much each individual fish's wen will grow, and we certainly cannot halt the growth of the wen when we feel that it has grown enough. Therefore wen growth is unpredictable and uncontrolled.

Also, in humans, most tumors fall under the benign category, and everyone of us harbor at least several "tumors/neoplasms" in our bodies at any given time. These neoplasms however are controlled by immune system (and other factors) and actually do not grow much, if at all. They are also referred to as micro-tumors. It is only after other cellular dis-regulations that these neoplasms develop into malignant tumors and cancers. Most, however, will not.

Does a wen have any physiological function? This is a good question. Just because it can store fat, does not mean it can use it. A tumor of adipose tissue will likewise contain an excessive accumulation of fat cells. I doubt the body can utilize it though. Lastly, just because something can make a physiological contribution or impact on the fish doesn't make it does not indicate that it does have a normal physiological role.

In any case, I love having these discussions. In the end, we all benefit from information that is brought up and (hopefully) learn new things :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uncontrolled growth does not mean unlimited growth. Rather it refers to escaping the normal control mechanisms that make a tissue respond properly. Some cells in the little tumors I have on my face did not follow the skin growth regulations that say "grow flat and stop dividing when you can't" and piled up to make a bump. Some have been there for over 40 years and are the same size they were right after they formed. The one I had removed did not grow back. Benign tumors almost never grow back after surgery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ahhahha. this thread is entertaining with argument of tumor vs. not tumor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Latecomer to the thread here (as always!) but I would not compare it to a tumour. It may fit the simplified dictionary definition of a tumour, but it does not fit the actual definition in biology, which is a mass of uncontrolled cell growth via uncontrolled cell division (usually DNA damage as the source), whether begin of malignant. The wen and it's growth is controlled by the fish's genes (but environment will allow it to flourish and grow to the potential of those genes). To put it in a easier way, it is a controlled growth patterned into the fish's DNA by us as humans via selective breeding, not an uncontrolled growth or, as said, a 'tumour'. :) Though tumour is certainly a good way to describe it's appearance though if you want to use a descriptive term! :rofl

It is not correct to call it a wart either. A wart is a viral infection manifesting as a lump of raised cells (the wart). The wen is not a viral infection. However, once again it certainly could make a good descriptive term for appearance of it!

A wen is a genetic controlled growth, not a tumour, not a wart or viral infection. Just a telescopes eyes, just like a bubble eyes sacs, just like the split tail of our fancies and so on. It may be abnormal in a sense that the trait has somehow mutated and it has been selected for by humans when it would not exist in the wild phenotype, but it is a growth dictated by the fish's genes, and in that way it is natural. The artificial selection is the abnormal, non natural component here, not the wen itself. :hi

Edit- In short

Wen= Genetic growth dictated by the fish's DNA. Wether or not it is natural (Human influence) is debatable, but it is DNA controlled, just like the development and growth of the rest of the fish, it's hearts and gills and everything.

Tumour= Uncontrolled growth (As in, not planned for) not dictated by the fish's DNA.

Wart= A viral infection

So while a wen may serve a similar function to a benign tumour, I would not say it is one by the biological definition.

I love these discussions none the less, though I think I'm a bit to late to participate in this one!

Edited by Amber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another little add on (can't edit post again, sorry guys!) is that if a wen, a growth made so extreme by artificial selection, but controlled by the fish's genetics, is a tumour, so is a split tail, so are bubble eyes, and all the other strange things we breed into fish via the same method. :unsure: Just because it looks like a tumour, doesn't necessarily make it one.

Incidentally, this is why I don't have orandas. Not the debate, the headgrowth just doesn't tickle my fancy. I got to have a look at an actual tumour in once, and since then anything that even remotely looks like it isn't my style, especially when attached to a fishy! :whistle

Edited by Amber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is funny! I once thought it was their brains a long time ago. Its not a tumor. Tumors are not passed on throughout generations. The wen is passed on, therefore its a bodily feature. I wonder what's next? A wen from head to tail? LoL

Is there any nerves system within the wen or is it like our fingernails and hair? It seems that cutting/trimming can be quite painful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is funny! I once thought it was their brains a long time ago. Its not a tumor. Tumors are not passed on throughout generations. The wen is passed on, therefore its a bodily feature. I wonder what's next? A wen from head to tail? LoL

Is there any nerves system within the wen or is it like our fingernails and hair? It seems that cutting/trimming can be quite painful.

1. Unfortunately, the propensity for development of certain rumors can be passed down from parent to offspring, so the argument that because wen potential is heritable, hence making it not a tumor, is not correct.

2. There are no nerves in the wen.

3. Fish certainly can sense and process pain, but they do not do so in the way that we do. So, while it is really important to treat all animals so as to never hurt them, it's also really important not to assign human characteristics and feelings to them. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I definitely see where you are coming from, however, it is NOT abnormal, therefore NOT a tumor.

I think you have essentially boiled it down to this statement; 'it is NOT abnormal, therefore NOT a tumor'

The question then is; Would the breed be considered abnormal?

If so, then the wen is a tumor in my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I definitely see where you are coming from, however, it is NOT abnormal, therefore NOT a tumor.

I think you have essentially boiled it down to this statement; 'it is NOT abnormal, therefore NOT a tumor'

The question then is; Would the breed be considered abnormal?

If so, then the wen is a tumor in my opinion.

Mike, Sarah (ryukin girl) was incorrect when making this statement. The wen is considered a neoplasm, and has been examined by several groups. Here is the abstract from one group

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22888656

Dynamics of development and morphology of hyperplastic skin lesions ("hoods") on the head of goldfish, which were bred using artificial selection for more than thousand years, were studied. During monitoring of hundred fishes, at the age of 6 months "hoods" were found in 39.5%, among 14 months-old fishes in 60,7%. Morphologic examination of "hoods" on various stages of development revealed epithelial hyperplasia with increased clear mucous cells number, dermis thickening and oedema. On later stages developed papillomatous outgrowth and areas of epithelial intrusion. The comparative oncology analysis allow to hypothesize these skin growth to be a genetically determined benign neoplasm. This is the first example of artificially selected neoplasm described in the literature. It supports our hypothesis of the possible evolutionary role of tumors.

As you can see, the conclusion is that wen is a benign neoplasm, or in other words, a benign tumor (a mass of abnormal cells).

I hope this can put an end to the debate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I definitely see where you are coming from, however, it is NOT abnormal, therefore NOT a tumor.

I think you have essentially boiled it down to this statement; 'it is NOT abnormal, therefore NOT a tumor'

The question then is; Would the breed be considered abnormal?

If so, then the wen is a tumor in my opinion.

Mike, Sarah (ryukin girl) was incorrect when making this statement. The wen is considered a neoplasm, and has been examined by several groups. Here is the abstract from one group

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22888656

Dynamics of development and morphology of hyperplastic skin lesions ("hoods") on the head of goldfish, which were bred using artificial selection for more than thousand years, were studied. During monitoring of hundred fishes, at the age of 6 months "hoods" were found in 39.5%, among 14 months-old fishes in 60,7%. Morphologic examination of "hoods" on various stages of development revealed epithelial hyperplasia with increased clear mucous cells number, dermis thickening and oedema. On later stages developed papillomatous outgrowth and areas of epithelial intrusion. The comparative oncology analysis allow to hypothesize these skin growth to be a genetically determined benign neoplasm. This is the first example of artificially selected neoplasm described in the literature. It supports our hypothesis of the possible evolutionary role of tumors.

As you can see, the conclusion is that wen is a benign neoplasm, or in other words, a benign tumor (a mass of abnormal cells).

I hope this can put an end to the debate.

Okay Alex, the wen is not a tumor.

But I think it has been mentioned a few times that a lot of these breeds are modified (...genetically?)

Does that not mean they (orandas, ryukins, ranchus, etc...) as a species, are mutations of the original?

Then, would that not make them all 'abnormal'?

Could the wens/pot belly's/tele eyes/bubble eyes all just be considered mutations?

Edited by Mr. Hyde

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hehe, the wen IS a tumor, albeit a very benign one that has been selected by breeding.

All of goldfish that we keep in many ways can be considered "unnatural" because they have been selected for exaggerated traits and because they would not have been (and have not been) selected for in nature. I don't know that I would call them abnormal, but this is really just semantics now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alex, I Also wanted to add; WTF...I had to break out the thesaurus!

"epithelial hyperplasia...oncology analysis allow to hypothesize".

;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alex, I Also wanted to add; WTF...I had to break out the thesaurus!

"epithelial hyperplasia...oncology analysis allow to hypothesize".

;)

Jekyll is the one with the PHD!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alex, I Also wanted to add; WTF...I had to break out the thesaurus!

"epithelial hyperplasia...oncology analysis allow to hypothesize".

;)

Well, it's a direct copy of a scientific abstract. Scientists love to confuse one another, and others. :rofl

Translates to excessive growth of skin tissue...cancer analysis allow to lead to the idea... :rofl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alex, I Also wanted to add; WTF...I had to break out the thesaurus!

"epithelial hyperplasia...oncology analysis allow to hypothesize".

;)

Well, it's a direct copy of a scientific abstract. Scientists love to confuse one another, and others. :rofl

Translates to excessive growth of skin tissue...cancer analysis allow to lead to the idea... :rofl

I'm calling you Doc from now on. :rofl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:rofl :rofl :rofl

You could, but my first name is much friendlier. Call Lisa and Sharon Docs. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alex, I Also wanted to add; WTF...I had to break out the thesaurus!

"epithelial hyperplasia...oncology analysis allow to hypothesize".

;)

What's the problem? That's just plain English, LOL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never had a fish with wen, do they all require wen trims at some stage? Or does it depend on their genetic predisposition for excessive wen growth etc etc?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never had a fish with wen, do they all require wen trims at some stage? Or does it depend on their genetic predisposition for excessive wen growth etc etc?

typically the only time we trim wen is if it is impacting their ability to function and lead a 'happy' life, for example if the wen covers the eyes completely and the fish is no longer active as a result. For the majority of wenned fish this is not a concern, and the need for wen trimming is pretty rare. Another time wen trimming might be necessary is a surgical trim in order to remove infected wen tissue. Again, not an incredibly common occurrence, but does happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never had a fish with wen, do they all require wen trims at some stage? Or does it depend on their genetic predisposition for excessive wen growth etc etc?

typically the only time we trim wen is if it is impacting their ability to function and lead a 'happy' life, for example if the wen covers the eyes completely and the fish is no longer active as a result. For the majority of wenned fish this is not a concern, and the need for wen trimming is pretty rare. Another time wen trimming might be necessary is a surgical trim in order to remove infected wen tissue. Again, not an incredibly common occurrence, but does happen.

Thank you! One day I would love an oranda or chu, but wen trimming seems pretty technical!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never had a fish with wen, do they all require wen trims at some stage? Or does it depend on their genetic predisposition for excessive wen growth etc etc?

typically the only time we trim wen is if it is impacting their ability to function and lead a 'happy' life, for example if the wen covers the eyes completely and the fish is no longer active as a result. For the majority of wenned fish this is not a concern, and the need for wen trimming is pretty rare. Another time wen trimming might be necessary is a surgical trim in order to remove infected wen tissue. Again, not an incredibly common occurrence, but does happen.

Thank you! One day I would love an oranda or chu, but wen trimming seems pretty technical!

I personally wouldn't worry about wen trimming until you get to that point. Worrying about what -might- happen is not something that should stop you from getting a type of goldfish that you want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love orandas, but my brother refers to them as the goldfish with their brain exploding out... But then, he thinks all goldfish are ugly. Silly man, he needs to be educated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this