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SMichele

Help? A Long First Post, But Please?

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Okay, thank you.

If my Ph does slip over time, what can be done to remedy that?

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Some people choose to add a bag of crushed coral to their filter box. That slowly dissolves over time, raising KH, which in turns holds pH steady. Alternatively you can buy a product called "Buff it up" from Goldfishconnection.com, but don't use the cheap pH up products you can often see in stores. Those don't work so great and are unreliable.

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Ok, one of the fish is spending an awful lot of time at the surface.

This fish is smaller than the other, however does appear to eat well. She'll go to the very top for a few moments, then swim back downwards.. She will then go about 2 or 3 inches below the surface for a few minutes, and then rise to the very top.. This will repeat many times.

What could this be, and what can I do?

She does this regardless of if I am right by the tank or not,

and in the tank there is a filter which is meant for a tank 3x this size, as well as an air pump, so I doubt it is a lack of oxygen.

Despite the ammonia being at .25, all levels are good. 50% water change is being done first thing in the morning though.

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Ok, one of the fish is spending an awful lot of time at the surface.

This fish is smaller than the other, however does appear to eat well. She'll go to the very top for a few moments, then swim back downwards.. She will then go about 2 or 3 inches below the surface for a few minutes, and then rise to the very top.. This will repeat many times.

What could this be, and what can I do?

She does this regardless of if I am right by the tank or not,

and in the tank there is a filter which is meant for a tank 3x this size, as well as an air pump, so I doubt it is a lack of oxygen.

Despite the ammonia being at .25, all levels are good. 50% water change is being done first thing in the morning though.

This may possibly be swim bladder issues. Does she flip over at all? Try feeding her a pea and then fast them to see if it clears out their system. It may be the flakes causing them to rise to the top as they're sucking up air.

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And wouldn't ya know it, right after I posted that, this behavior stopped.

She is currently resting with her "sister", a few inches above the bottom of the tank. Still "swimming" but very clearly in a state of rest. My guess is that they're now in their sleep cycle...

But, still, not sure what the previous behavior was all about.

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Tay, no, she doesn't flip over at all.

She seems to swim very, very well, as well. She is also clearly aware of her surroundings (I touch the side of the tank, she'll move from that side, as she's not used to me yet -- when she was awake, I am letting her rest now).

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I think it's wonderful that you rescued these fish and are giving them a great chance at a long, happy life. :)

The amount/frequency of water changes you do depends entirely on the ammonia/nitrite levels in the tank. Once the ammonia gets to a level that isn't yet toxic (depending on your temp and pH), you can do small water changes (10-20$) daily to keep the ammonia at that level. If you get 0.25 ammonia and change half the water, you're taking out the "food" for the bacteria. With a low temp and high pH, ammonia can get quite high (1.0 ppm or more) before it becomes toxic. There's a chart in the water quality section of the forums that will show you what your "safe" level of ammonia is. When you start seeing nitrite, salt can make it safe for the fish. I still wouldn't let nitrite get above 0.5 ppm if you can help it. NEVER above 1.0 ppm. You can use Prime to detoxify ammonia and nitrite so you can go longer without water changes. Just make sure you test the water every day at least, sometimes twice a day, and especially after a water change to make sure the water is all set.

Edit:: Found the chart.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/35322-ammonia-toxicity/

Edited by tofu

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if you are afraid of letting the ammonia climb + the fish freak out already at 0.25 what you can try is the Conditioner called Prime

My link

What Prime does is that it makes Ammonia, later Nitrite - harmless to the fish. So what you can do is use that instead of a water change - or maybe change 10% and add Prime for the rest. You can get your own comfort zone with it. I have never let the ammonia climb to 1 - I see the fish freak out before. But already when I get trace ammonia (when your tester isn't exactly the color of 0) - I squirt in a bit of Prime. You need to let the ammonia climb a little - otherwise it will take a long time to cycle. :undecided:

Hope this helps.

I think that since your are cycling - most of the changes in behavior of your fish (gulping etc) - will be due to the ammonia etc. So I guess water changes will usually fix that.

good luck!

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if you are afraid of letting the ammonia climb + the fish freak out already at 0.25 what you can try is the Conditioner called Prime

My link

What Prime does is that it makes Ammonia, later Nitrite - harmless to the fish. So what you can do is use that instead of a water change - or maybe change 10% and add Prime for the rest. You can get your own comfort zone with it. I have never let the ammonia climb to 1 - I see the fish freak out before. But already when I get trace ammonia (when your tester isn't exactly the color of 0) - I squirt in a bit of Prime. You need to let the ammonia climb a little - otherwise it will take a long time to cycle. :undecided:

Hope this helps.

I think that since your are cycling - most of the changes in behavior of your fish (gulping etc) - will be due to the ammonia etc. So I guess water changes will usually fix that.

good luck!

:exactly Federica has made a good point with the Prime water conditioner. It'll neutralize the ammonia if you're having issues with it. It's also great for the nitrite part too.

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welcome, and congratulations on your new babies.. i have nothing more to add, you've been given great advise from the best of our members...

the only thing i will ask though.. can you load some pics? we'd love to see them :heart

helen

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Regretfully, I must say that I do not think one of the fish will make it. I do not believe that this has anything to do with the levels in the tank, all of which are still within reason, and from what I've been told, non-toxic. Ammonia, which I just tested again, is at .25ppm.. As I'm cycling, I was told that I need to let it rise.

The little fish that was near the top of the tank last night, is floating like she's a bit drunk. I went in their a few moments ago and found her pressed against the side of the filter (I have a Penguin Bio-Wheel filter). I used the net to get her away from the filter, and since she's been floating like drunk.. Getting blown around by the filter, and air pump. She also will not eat. The other fish, though not very active, is swimming fine.

I am doing all I can for these two, but I've a feeling the little one will be gone before the night is through. She was not as active when I first rescued her, and I had suspected since day one that something was off, but I could not pinpoint it.

Hopefully she pulls through, but I am doubtful.

She also appears to be floating with her face downwards at times.. It seems she is just letting the movement of the water push her around. :(

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I would do a large water change. The fish comes before the cycle. large water change (75%) with temp matched water.

best of luck!

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oh.. maybe she has swim bladder? i am not experienced enough to be suggesting meds or anything, but if she's really small, she could be getting drawn to the filter as she's floaty? i have read many times on other member's posts that feeding peas helps..

unsalted frozen peas, boiled (using the tank's water), jackets removed, mashed (cooled) and fed to the floaty fish is a good way to relieve a fish from swim bladder.. this happens if they've been gulping air at the surface..

someone more experienced should come along soon to help, but perhaps you should prepare it incase this is the next step?

i hope this all works out for you, you really are doing a great job.. big strong support hugs your way.. :heart

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Yes, I tried the unsalted peas ...she will not eat them (or even her regular food).

She is floating upside down often now, and only seems to stop when there's something right above her, like holding her in place.. For example, she is currently resting on one of the fake plants.

I am going to try a water change, but I do not think this has anything to do with water levels.

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some fish are very sensitive to ammonia... hope the w/c helps...

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Even ammonia at 0.25 is toxic. Especially if the tank temperature is high or if the pH is high. Ammonia in any amount is very stressful on the fish, so I think a large water change as Federica suggested will help the fish out. She may still not make it, but the water change will give her the best possible chance.

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It looks like little Toto has passed on... :/

She is still floating with the flow of the water in the tank, however her gills have not moved, and she does not react to anything.

I picked her out of the tank with the net, and she did not move at all.

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oh I am so sorry.... how is the other little one?

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Dorothy, as named by my niece, appears to be doing well (one thing that makes me think it wasn't the conditions of the water, but I did do a partial change just in case).

Dorothy is very responsive, and seems to eat well. She is not the most active fish in the world, but she is a fast swimmer.

I truly believe Toto was sick when I got him, and that perhaps he had swim bladder. He is smaller, for one.. I know goldfish come in different sizes and just being smaller than one doesn't mean illness, but that has had me concerned. His color was also more faded into a very light orange, whereas Dorothy's has been vibrant since I first got her.

Edited by SMichele

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What can I do for Dorothy to help her survive? I've a feeling her chances are likely not the best, due to where she has came from.. And due to the fact that the tank is cycling -- but then again, Dorothy appears completely unphased by the tank cycling.. But yes, I want to give her the best shot that I can.

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It sounds like he probably was sick when you got him, but any ammonia only aggravates the situation and makes a sick fish worse. So sorry you lost him :( I hope Dorothy does well :)

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It looks like little Toto has passed on... :/

She is still floating with the flow of the water in the tank, however her gills have not moved, and she does not react to anything.

I picked her out of the tank with the net, and she did not move at all.

I'm so sorry. May toto RIP. How is your other fish?

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Even ammonia at 0.25 is toxic. Especially if the tank temperature is high or if the pH is high. Ammonia in any amount is very stressful on the fish.

The toxicity of ammonia depends on the temperature and pH. It's impossible to know if 0.25 ammonia is harmful without knowing the temp and pH.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/35322-ammonia-toxicity/

The bound form of ammonia is completely harmless. So if your temp and pH are low enough, 0.25 ammonia may not be harmful at all. But you really have to test to find out. That's what Prime does, too, it binds the ammonia. The bottle of Prime I have says about 5 mL Prime binds about 0.8 mg/L ammonia.

Also, different breeds may be more or less stressed by it. My shubunkin hasn't shown any distress, even when the ammonia got to 1.0 ppm while I was sleeping. Granted, there probably wasn't any of the toxic form of ammonia in the water since my temp is 72, pH 7.8. Fancy breeds may not be able to handle much ammonia.

Edited by tofu

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Tofu, this is what I think, but it should be confirmed by a mod because I'm not 100% sure:

Ammonia is a gill irritant at any amount and will put stress on an already sick fish. When that chart you have says the ammonia is "toxic" that means it will kill at above that level. I'm talking about stress, and I do believe that any amount of ammonia regardless of pH and temp is stressful on the gills. I would really like someone to confirm this though so I know for sure :undecided:

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Well, toothless said that the bound form of ammonia is "totally harmless". Can't get much clearer than that, at least in my opinion. If it's wrong, someone should change/remove it, so I wouldn't mind knowing for sure either. :)

Edited by tofu

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