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Sakura

Some Opinions Needed

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Okay so I spent the past HOUR researching aquarium systems via marineland inc and I know even less than I did before. They're 'life like' rock attachments are coated in epoxy. Now, we're going to presume that they use aquarium safe epoxy or they would probably be out of business by now but sometimes accidents do happen and maybe the epoxy coating wasn't properly put on and chemicals are slowly leaching. The problem with this idea is that you've been doing a lot of water changes so the chemicals wouldn't ever build up to a really dangerous level.

If they are overstressed from being sick have you tried leaving the lights off for a day or two so as to not stimulate them? Just thinking of coping techniques. When the lights are off, can you notice any difference in them? (I know silly thing to say cause you obviously won't see as well with the lights off)00001649.gif Sick fish are so scary I hope they perk up soon. You're doing an excellent job and doing everything you can for them.

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Let's see, I don't have a bubble bar because I soaked them in bleach and wanted to let them air dry to evaporate the chlorine. They might be safe to use by now. What I have in place of a bubble bar is a piece of airline tubing suctioned to the bottom of the tank, so that's bubbling away. No small bubbles, but it helps create surface agitation at least. I removed the plant and got some stats for you guys to mull over. :)

Tap pH low range: 7.6 pH high range: 8.0 Ammonia: 0 Nitrite: 0 Nitrate: 0

IMG_5016.jpgIMG_5015.jpg

Tank pH low range: 7.6 pH high range: 8.2 Ammonia: 0.25 Nitrite: 0 Nitrate: 0

IMG_5017.jpgIMG_5018.jpg

So I think what I'll do now is a 50% water change with Prime and I won't add any salt, so that will bring the concentration down to .05% like Amy suggested. Would it benefit in the long term to add some crushed coral to my filter boxes? This helps keep pH stable right? If I'm not sure whether or not the pH fluctuates, would it be a good precautionary measure to add the crushed coral just in case? In other words, it couldn't hurt anything to add it, right? I have kept the tank lights off since they arrived, but some ambient light does come in through the window in the living room. There is no direct light however, and the light that comes in is rather subdued. Thanks for the support and help, you guys are so great!

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I thought crushed coral brought up the PH which of course you don't want to do with your PH being as high as it is. As far as I know there are only a few things that bring down the Ph, like driftwood. I hope you get things figured out soon. Your fish are gorgeous!! Good luck. :heart

Edited by Gigi

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Since the PH is being picked up in the high range test kit, it is about 8.2, not in the 7 area. 8.2 if stable is ok though as mine stays between 8.0-8.4, however it also comes out of the tap aroun 8.0 and it seems that yours does as well. I only use te high range as the low range doesnt work for my PH as it is around 8. I think you will have to use high range as well now instead of the low range.

I had a problem with planst I bought once and it kept making the fish sick. I ended up having a completely empty tank except for my filter and fish until they got better. Then I only added in one plant or item (ie rocks) at a time for a few days and making sure they were fine. SO i would put one plant in and leave only that plant in for say 3-4 days, and if the fish were fine I would add plant #2 after 4 days. Eventually, when I added something in I could see that they weren't doing as well so I threw the plant out. Have you tried that? ( i see you've removed the one plant, but is there anything else in the tank with the fish?)

8.0-8.2 doesnt seem like a PH fluctuation to me... I'd re-check it wit the high range PH kit a few times a day and record it. as long as it stays around the 8.0-8.2 it isnt really fluctuating. You should only need the low range test kit if the high range test shows at the smallest PH level of 7.8 (i think thats the first level on the high range kit). Thats means it is dropping. Otherwise it could be stable around 8.

Edited by lirpa1

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There's definitely a difference there in pH, and as pH is on a logarithmic scale a difference of even 0.2 is actually pretty noticeable, and yours looks like nearer 0.4...are you working or are you able to take a while over water changes? If you add the water gradually enough hopefully they will acclimatise reasonably to the differences, or maybe decrease your water changes to 25% three times a day if your ammonia isn't climbing.

Your other option is look at getting some zeolite so you can change the water once a day gradually and just keep swapping the zeolite round to deal with the ammonia, you'd have to leave off salting them until later obviously? You need to be careful with that though, Daryl likes to soak one in salt solution and one in the tank and swap them around on a daily basis but some people have noticed theirs still leaking ammonia after being really well rinsed after salting. Might be something to read up on though, the problem can't be that common or people wouldn't use it.

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I'm so Sorry Sakura, I do hope they're feeling better this am :)

Just curious,you said the 3rd fish you purchased was in the same condition upon arrival, but now is doing better, but is in another tank... just curious as to why?Didn't you get all 3 at the same time, and from the same place?I'm Thinking then there's something in the tank the tele's are in that is distressing them?just typing out loud here ;) I do hope you get this figured out soon :)

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Ok so have just spent the morning reading up on pH levels, and how to lower them and such. But I think as you probably agree that the more important thing is to stabilize the pH instead of trying to lower it. I know you don't have a GH/KH test kit BUT is there a pet store you trust? I know that pet stores will test your water for you and maybe you might have to shop around to find one that'll test your hardness level. Once those levels are known you'll be able to find out if they're the normal levels or not. For tap water try phoning the city water system and see if they can readily give you the numbers.

IF those levels aren't within the norms (for goldfish they can be anywhere around 100-400 ppm) then you have found the problem.

My brain is now mush so i'll check back after a nap, Hope the babies are feeling better today.

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Alright today the tap water pH tests at 7.4(!) and the tank is at 8.2 still. So I guess the problem is that the pH of the tap water fluctuates all the time! grrr Now what do I do?! Am I going to have to buy bottles of spring water or what?

The Ryukin (Amelie) is in a different tank just because I felt the three of them were too cramped as far as dilution of toxins in the 29 gallon tank. Even though I was doing twice daily changes, I thought they'd be better off with more space per fish. So she's in a plastic tub that holds 10 gallons with her own filter and bubbler. She was really skittish in the glass tank, so I thought the frosted sides of the tub might help keep her calm too. But she might not be fine after all, because yesterday I couldn't get her to eat anything. She tried eating the gel but spit it right back out, and she wouldn't eat pellets or bloodworms either. Other than not eating, she seems just fine though. I'll try feeding her again today and see what happens.

What a bummer. I really need to do a water change, but now I'm afraid to because it'll change the pH too much.

Edited by Sakura

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pH levels in tap water can vary seasonally. Which makes sense, right now the snow is melting and if you're area uses an underwater resource for water then that snow is going to go into it. That means more chemicals and more minerals are going in but they have to maintain the same supply so therefore the alkalinity of the water (bicarbonate, carbonate, or hydroxide) doesn't get addressed. There is a wide range of acceptable limits and it's non toxic to humans, a minimum amount is in there just as a buffer. Therefore in the spring when the melt happens it can take a bit for them to 'catch up' on the alkalinity as they are addressing the other issues with water quality.

IF this is what is happening to your water you'll need to adjust the alkalinity accordingly. You don't have to switch to specialized water just yet. Find out your GH/KH and alkalinity levels and possibly pH strived for from your city source. Find a pet store that can measure the GH/KH and possibly alkalinity in your tank water. With this information you should be able to confirm if your tap water is causing an unstable environment.

This is just one possibility. I really hope there's a MOD here who can delve into water quality aspects better than my measly attempts.

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Your advice has been very helpful Bodoba, don't call it measly! But yeah, come to think of it not a single mod has replied on this thread yet :idont

I guess I would really like to know what I should do as far as water changes go in the meantime because the tank really needs it! I may not be able to get out to test GH/KH today, and there are no good fish stores around here that will test it accurately for me anyways. They test hardness at Pet*smart but it's just with the strip test and does not give exact numbers either I don't believe. I would just have to buy the test kits on my own probably and I'm not sure that any stores nearby sell them. I think I'll have to buy online.

Oh by the way, I emailed Ken also to ask his advice. He's the seller. Hopefully he replies soon!

Edited by Sakura

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Well I ended up doing a 1/3 water change and they are not happy at all. They went sunk straight to the bottom and are very listless, just letting themselves be pushed around by the current. I'm starting to panic. Amelie isn't doing well either which supports the idea of pH being the issue. Looks like she may be getting the beginnings of popeye, but not too sure.

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Gosh...how frustrating. It does seem like your PH changes, which reminds me that I need to test my tap before each QT water change. Right now I have two in QT, a pretty tiny telescope and a giant fist sized oranda. The tank is not cycled and it is a ten gallon. I am doing one daily 75% water change and the tank never raises above .25ppm ammonia. If it does I will have to increase my water changes, but I do notice that although they like the fresh water there is some stress in doing the changes for them.

How are they today?

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Well I ended up doing a 1/3 water change and they are not happy at all. They went sunk straight to the bottom and are very listless, just letting themselves be pushed around by the current. I'm starting to panic. Amelie isn't doing well either which supports the idea of pH being the issue. Looks like she may be getting the beginnings of popeye, but not too sure.

What was the PH from the tap and the tank reading before the water change? I don't know how to use baking soda, but I know some people do that and it may help to treat the water you are adding to the tank. Adding crushed coral certainly can't hurt anything.

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I know my ph dropped when I removed some seashells,Maybe you could add some?would that help?How about some decor that they could hide from the current?I feel so bad for you and your new fishes :(I hope they start to feel better real soon!!!

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Just wanted to say I'm thinking of you and your poor fishies. :heart:heart I can't offer anything except encouragement because I have zero experience with PH problems. I hope it will soon sort itself out for you. :hug

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Sorry aboutmy comments Sakura! I thought you were saying the PH was swinging with the one time test between the high and low range test kits, but now I see what you mean! :( Good luckw ith ur fishies!

One of my friends had a problem with dropping PH. Someone suggested limestone rocks to her as it releases nutrients etc in the wtaer to make it a bit harder and keep it more stable? Does anyone know about that?

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But yeah, come to think of it not a single mod has replied on this thread yet :idont

i was thinking the same thing!!! Where are the mods to help you?? Did they all go on vacation or get sick at the same time again?? :krazy::idont

Edited by Gigi

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But yeah, come to think of it not a single mod has replied on this thread yet :idont

i was thinking the same thing!!! Where are the mods to help you?? Did they all go on vacation or get sick at the same time again?? :krazy::idont

What about sending a pm to one of the mods?

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I have sent a PM to Trinket. :) I feel bad doing that because I don't want to be a bother or anything :unsure:

Ken called me back but he didn't have time to talk too much. He admitted he didn't really know much about pH issues, but he did say that it's not uncommon for telescopes to be very lazy and just sit around. Still though, they are sitting with their dorsals down and fins clamped, so something is bothering them. Plus Fuu was swimming around happily just a couple days ago, so this is odd for her. He did suggest that I let the tap water run for a good bit of time before testing for pH though since it will have been sitting in the pipes and that may cause the readings to be off.

Hmm. Still just not too sure what to do, but I think I'll continue with twice daily 1/3 changes and light feeding. I guess I'm not really sure what else I can do. But Amelie is still not eating and that worries me a lot, and I really think she is developing a case of popeye. I'm not reaching for the meds though, because I do think it's related to water issues.

Would Buff It Up help in this case I wonder? Since the tank pH is higher than the tap, I could add Buff It Up to the water before adding it to the tank so that the pH remains constant. But I've heard it takes a bit of experimentation because the amount you add will be different depending on the pH difference and all that. If anyone has experience with the product; do you add it and then wait a certain amount of time before you test it, because it takes time for the product to affect the pH? Or does it work immediately (within a couple minutes)?

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My tap ph is 7.4 and my tank ph is 8.2. The difference is apparently due to the amount of dissolved CO2 in the water. Cometgirl told me this when I was trying to figure out why the ph levels were different a few months ago, and suggested that I run a bubbler in the tap water to dissipate the CO2. I did what Cometgirl suggested and found that putting fresh water in a bucket and running an airstone in it for a few hours dissipated the CO2 and brought the pH level to the tank level.

The CO2 will dissipate over time from the tank (raising the ph)--as has happened in your tank, it seems--but then you have the fluctuation in the tank, where you don't want it. Your tank is stable at 8.2, right? So the problem is the tap water ph. See if running an airstone in a bucket of tap water raises the ph to the tank level. If this works for you like it did for me--test it after a few hours to see--you will have a way to adjust the ph before you put it in the tank and therefore to do the water changes without subjecting your fish to the Ph fluctuations.

(I just read your last post. I don't think buff it up will solve your problem IF the fluctuation is caused by CO2 dissipation. If you buff new tap water to 8.2--and then put it in the tank--it seems that that PH will rise again to higher than 8.2 as the CO2 dissipates. So, it would be the same problem..)

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Yes, so far the tank pH seems pretty stable at 8.2.

That is a good suggestion, I think I have a couple 5 gallon buckets I could use. They are full of gravel, so I'll have to find another place for that though! :rolleyes: I don't have an extra bubbler, but the filters provide plenty of splash so I could probably borrow it for a few hours each day. It should only take a few hours with the bubbler to raise the pH you think? I will try that. Thank you Spillie :)

I have also called and left a message asking about pH at the water treatment place for my city, so I hope they'll get back to me tomorrow. I can also ask them about chlorines and chloramines just 'cause I'm curious which they use and how much.

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I think I ran the bubbler in a 5 gallon bucket for just a few hours, but honestly I can't remember now if it was two hours or 6 hours. You might try for an hour or two and test and see where it is. It should end up at the tank ph, though, if the reason for the fluctuation is the same as it was in my case, i.e., the CO2 dissipation. Hope this works for you! I just used this technique recently in my 10 G quarantine tank (put bubbler in the water before work, changed 5 gallons of water after work) and my new fish did not seem to have any ph issues.

[if you stabilize the PH and your fish still have issues, then at least you eliminate the PH as the problem...but I hope this is a simple fix and bubbling the water before the water changes solves the problem. Fingers crossed!]

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This is my first telescope (so I don't have much experience), but I can say he worries me because he is laying around a lot. So maybe they do that? But the lowered dorsal and clamped fins makes me think that your fish seem unhappy. Something does indeed seem up. I think your plan with twice daily 1/3 water changes seems like a good plan. Have you tried anything extra yummy for Amelie...bloodworms, brine? That might be a good try. If you talk to Ken again I would see if he has been having other issues with this batch of fish. I know you mentioned the shipping was rough for them. What happened? How did they look when they first came in? I really want to see them get better.

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Well when they first arrived they all looked mostly fine except for a lot of redness in the fins. But Mugen bottom-sat for a couple days after arriving. Amelie's always been skittish, I assume that's just the way she is. Fuu was the worst, and Ken thought that made sense because she seemed to thrash around a lot in the shipping bag. But when she arrived she was extremely floaty. She couldn't seem to control it, she'd swim around a bit, but whenever she rested she'd float right back up to the top, and it seemed difficult for her to swim down. That issue gradually went away. She also had red coming through from under her scales in one spot, like bleeding from underneath the scales. I let him know about it, and that has since cleared up thankfully. I thought she might have internal damage which was causing the float and bruise, plus she also looked lopsided when viewed from above. Then Ken told me that it's normal for females to look lopsided from the top! Okay, so she's a female then I guess! :)

I tried gel, pellets and bloodworms with Amelie. Poor thing, she wasn't interested in any of it. If she doesn't improve soon I think I'll try soaking the food in garlic. I can just buy regular garlic juice from the grocery store, right? Oh my, I just looked it up and it's a little spendy! Hope it doesn't come to that...

I can't wait to see pictures of and hear more about your new fish Amy! Where did you get them from?

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I think Trinket's in America at Fumi's at the moment so won't be on as much, and the other mods don't have as much to do with the D&D forums :(

Sounds like the bubbling water is a good idea if you've got the space to have buckets sitting around :) Keep us up to date with how it's going.

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