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RHankinsJr

Orandas In Very Very Poor State

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[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level? 0ppm

[*]Nitrite Level? 0ppm

[*]Nitrate level? 20-25

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 8.7

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? ??

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Drops

[*]Water temperature? 72ish

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 55g and for 1yr approx ( filter has 3yrs of constant use )

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)? 2 emporer 400s

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? every two weeks, 80%

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 orandas, 5-6" and 4-5"

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? amquel+, proper ph 7.5

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? progold 1once daily

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? no

[*]Any medications added to the tank? no

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? cloudy color to them, blood in rear fins, some fin rot

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? bottom sitting, not eating, deep breathing

Not sure when this started, we have been gone for the week. They were showing no signs of distress when we left. The wife got home before me and notified me so I had her check the water, snap pics, and I am posting the information.

The feeder was still working properly for our time away and was still dropping a small amount of progold and was still set to once a day.

don't pay attention to my sig, I have not updated it. These are the two orandas from the 20g tank that were moved into the 55g tank after my ranchu passed. The tank was fully cleaned before we moved them over. We bought all new items for the tank when we moved them and we moved their emporer to the new tank to seed it properly.

Tank has had them in it for approx 1 year now.

2.jpg

1.jpg

Thanks,

Richard

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First off I am a Newbie still so will offer No Advise,but I think maybe you should do a large water change,and good gravel Vac...Good clean fresh,treated(dechlorniated) water is always benificial imo :) I'm sure a Mod will be by shortly to point you in the right direction :) I do Hope your Fish feel better soon :)

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Thank you for your advice, as soon as I get home I will be doing that right away the nitrATE is high for being at the end of their 2 week cycle.

The wife doesn't know how to use the python so it has to wait on me.

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Can only wish you the very best of luck mate. I know just what its like to have to watch a fish in that kind of condition, its not very nice :(

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Hi,

The first thing I've noticed is you are doing biweekly water changes. That is quite a wide time gap between water changes. In my opinion, the maximum should be considered at weekly basis. Could you please change the schedule to weekly on the same water volume replaced? Your fish will benefit more from frequent water changes than inadequate one.

I've also noted your oranda (behind at first pic) has fluid buildup around the eye. I'm familiar with this. I just can't put a finger what it was. Have you noted any flashing? We'll need Trinket to confirm this. I'm thinking this could be trichodina but again, it's hard for me to pin down which one it was.

In the meantime, Shelly is correct in advising you to do more water changes. I'd do one at this point and readjust the schedule as necessary.

How thick is the substrate?

What other decorations do you have? Any hollow ones?

What is the pH on your tap? Please test your tap and do NOT use the pH adjusting chemical.

If your hardness levels and pH were low to begin with, then I suggest getting crushed corals instead of relying on the pH up to do that job since water changes tend to lift off the effects thus causing the pH to swing uncontrollably.

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Oh wow that must have been awful to come home to! I agree do the biggest water change possible with your fish still in the tank and vaccum the gravel really, really well!

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Hi,

The first thing I've noticed is you are doing biweekly water changes. That is quite a wide time gap between water changes. In my opinion, the maximum should be considered at weekly basis. Could you please change the schedule to weekly on the same water volume replaced? Your fish will benefit more from frequent water changes than inadequate one.

I've also noted your oranda (behind at first pic) has fluid buildup around the eye. I'm familiar with this. I just can't put a finger what it was. Have you noted any flashing? We'll need Trinket to confirm this. I'm thinking this could be trichodina but again, it's hard for me to pin down which one it was.

In the meantime, Shelly is correct in advising you to do more water changes. I'd do one at this point and readjust the schedule as necessary.

How thick is the substrate?

What other decorations do you have? Any hollow ones?

What is the pH on your tap? Please test your tap and do NOT use the pH adjusting chemical.

If your hardness levels and pH were low to begin with, then I suggest getting crushed corals instead of relying on the pH up to do that job since water changes tend to lift off the effects thus causing the pH to swing uncontrollably.

Substrate is maybe 1/4" at most spots some may be a little higher from getting moved around in pythoning the water. I have crushed coral in the extra media holders on one of the emporers. When I get home I will test the tap water, the last time I did it was very very low and with a low (gH? whatever the one that keeps it stable is ).

Normally at the end of 2 weeks the nitrATE is barely to 10ppm, this time it was larger. Quite possibly due to the feedings having to be done via auto-feeder for the time we were gone.

There are no decorations in the tank at all.

Thanks,

Richard

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bump.

ph of water on tap is 5.9, I was out of kH, gH test.

Changed water ~90%.

Was a little more debris ( guessing from feeder ) but not a lot. Nothing out of the way in filters.

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Wow, that's quite an acidic pH from a tap. Could you please get KH and GH kits? The crushed corals seem to do a good job at keeping pH from falling below 7 which benefits the goldfish much better.

Do you have access to kanamycin? This is the best antibiotic we can try for possible flex here. Flex-short for Flexibacter columnaris. Finrot and bloody streaks connect very well to possible bacterial infection. (Sorry, I confused this with other health issues as I had never seen flex this very severe like the fish were literally caked with too much flour.) This is not necessary with the proper antibiotic we use but if you can manage this (tedious monitoring of meds and salt to be redosed every water change), dose 0.1% of aquarium salt or a TEAspoon per gallon to help keep the bacteria from latching firmly on the fish. Stick on that level and no more than that. Remember to replace salt at exact dosage per water volume replaced. If you removed 20g of water, I'd redose 20 teaspoons of salt again.

The antibiotic can likely destroy your beneficial bacteria so please watch your ammonia and nitrite carefully. Vacuum substrate thoroughly every water change to minimize/reduce bacterial count.

Are fish still eating well?

What are water parameters right now?

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I am not sure if it would be columnaris, when the wife first described them to me that is what I thought as well. But after seeing the pics and looking at them IRL it looks more like they have created a lot of mucous in trying to protect themselves. It is not cottony. That supported your original assumption that it might have been an abnormal trichondia population in the tank.

I'll try to locate some of the antibiotics

They are not eating. Params are 0nitrite,0nitrate,0ammonia. 7.5ph ~73degrees salted as perscribed.

Edited by RHankinsJr

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Okay, salt will hopefully alleviate the issue for a moment. I decided to PM Trinket as my memory is getting dull. Midnight here for me!:( Even if kanamycin may not be required assuming Trinket verifies it's not bacterial infection, it's always good to have it around in your cabinet just in case.

Wait for her word. I'd rather she verifies this.exactly.gif

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I am really concerned about your pH. So it is 5.9 out of your tap, but 8.7 in the tank? And you have crushed coral and proper pH added?

As soon as I saw the pic of your fish I thought...pH crash. I think with all that variation, it is very likely that you have some huge fluctuations going on there. So when you do a water change, do you add the proper pH to the water before putting in the tank? I have never used that product, but I'm wondering if when you add it, does it cause a sudden spike and then, how long does it take to drop back down again?

Lupin is right that you need to do more frequent water changes, if not for the waste then for the pH for sure. Even the best buffers don't tend to hold levels steady for too long. Do you adjust the pH between water changes to keep it steady?

Sorry for all the questions, but I just want to make sure we get to the bottom of what's happening in your tank :)

This may not even be rooted in pH, as Lupin has already said, but it's best to check all factors and narrow down what's happening.

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I really have no clue what's going on in your tank, I really hope you get it sorted, but it's just struck me that a factor that won't help is the difference in pH between the new water and the old, the coral might take care of it pretty quick but massive water changes fluctuating between 5.9 and 8.7 is really really going to stress your fish, and that makes them even more prone to problems. Is it possible for you to have another bag of coral you can swish around in the new water (put it in a bucket before the tank) and check what the pH is? They can take a jump of say 0.1-0.2 I think, but given that pH is on a logarithmic scale a jump of nearly 3 is enormous. Just something to consider, it won't be the main problem, but it might help.

The white looks like excess slimecoat to me, and I've only seen that red veining in fins when there was high ammonia, I'm sure there's other causes but just incase, how old are your test kits? They can be less effective after a while I think...

Just trying to bounce some ideas around, best of luck.

Edit: Chrissy beat me to it with the pH ;)

Edited by devilduck

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I am really concerned about your pH. So it is 5.9 out of your tap, but 8.7 in the tank? And you have crushed coral and proper pH added?

As soon as I saw the pic of your fish I thought...pH crash. I think with all that variation, it is very likely that you have some huge fluctuations going on there. So when you do a water change, do you add the proper pH to the water before putting in the tank? I have never used that product, but I'm wondering if when you add it, does it cause a sudden spike and then, how long does it take to drop back down again?

Lupin is right that you need to do more frequent water changes, if not for the waste then for the pH for sure. Even the best buffers don't tend to hold levels steady for too long. Do you adjust the pH between water changes to keep it steady?

Sorry for all the questions, but I just want to make sure we get to the bottom of what's happening in your tank :)

This may not even be rooted in pH, as Lupin has already said, but it's best to check all factors and narrow down what's happening.

I use a python to remove water and do the substrate 100% each time.

To refill, I mix the water in a 5 gallon buckets using proper ph, and I check the levels on the water before I add it to the tank. I check the water params every wed. and every sat. the ph has always been 7.5 or very close to it. If the ph gets to 7.0 I do a water change, although I have only had to do it for this reason once.

I was curious about proper ph as well since you mentioned it. I took a gallon bucket, put the water in then dosed it with 5gal worth of proper ph... stirred it up tested it 7.5. There was no spike to say other than it correcting the ph... I'll test it again in 30m. It might act differently in the tank since as I mentioned before I have crushed coral in the filters. But I *never* overdose it like I did in this test.

I am using my newest test kit, it is 3 weeks old.

Closest store I have found with the antibiotics is 3 hours away.

***edit** This week I did not do sat or wed testing because I was gone, but upon my arrival back home ( at the end of 2 weeks ) the ph was 7.5 steady.

**re-edit** I just realized that I said the ph was originally 8.7 in my first post, that was innacurate. Not sure where I got that number when entering it.

Edited by RHankinsJr

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I am so sorry about your fish! Yikes!ohmy.gif

Don't go rushing for medications. I am more concerned with PH. If the Ph dropped while you were gone it will make the fish look this way.

Check and double check your PH, we can't be sure it didn't drop while you were away. At the same time too much food build up increases those nitrates. Like everyone has mentioned before..water changes. But you need to make sure that the Ph you are putting in your tank isn't 5.9 it is way too low!

Ok... on a side note there is a better product for Ph than what you are using. It is called Buff it Up and you can get it from Goldfishconnection.com

I agree with Lupin that the eye on the back oranda looks a bit popeye. Do you have aquarium, kosher, pickling salt that you could start dosing tank?

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Absolutely Steph!!! NO MEDS!!!

This is a pH crash. Classic one.

You need to check tap pH and do a full water change. Changing to a higher pH is just fine and in fact imperative.

Please act fast.

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This can be moved from 911. They both died.

@trinket,

If the pH did crash, what brought it back up when my wife tested the water before any changes were made to the tank? And what would cause a crash and recovery like that?

@newbiefishgirl:

I am buffering the water before I introduce it into the tank due to the condition of the tap water.

I will get some buff it up and try it instead of proper pH, my only concern with it is the fact that you can overdose it and since I have to pre-condition my water before adding it to the tank this would make it a much more tedious task. But I guess I have to do whatever it takes. What is the difference between these products that makes buff it up the better choice or is it your personal preference?

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I'm so sorry you lost them :(

I used a liquid buffer before, I can't remember the name but it could be overdosed and it didn't last long. But I find the buff it up lasts between waterchanges, my pH doesn't budge. And as far as I can tell, it's hard to overdose. I always add more than the recommended dosage, because my kH is so low and it never shoots my pH up like the old liquid product did. And another bonus is a little of it goes a long way when compared to other products.

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What makes a ph crash... In simple Terms... The KH gets to low and it cant hold the Ph up any longer. Do a water change and testing the ph after it or with in 24 hours will show you a normal level of ph...

There is a thread about Ph and KH in the Tank water section of this board...

As for Buff it up, it treats the KH in the water and not just the PH, it does both, So yep its better cause it treats the cause not the symptom. :)

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@koko:

Thank you for your explanation. I just did not understand what would make it drop from 7.5 then bring it right back up to 7.5 on it's own without any outside influence from my wife or myself. In fact after the fish died I left the tank running and I am going to continue to monitor the pH levels twice daily for the next couple of weeks to see if this 'crash' happens again without water changes ( fishless now of course ). So far the pH is staying stable at 7.5

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