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Ick Improving But Now Slimy Film

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The good news is that the ick is improving however there is a a white slime coming off the fish, espcially the smallest fish, a 1 1/2 inch tailess oranda which is having trouble swimming due to the fin rot. They ate very well last night and the poo looks like their homemade gel food. So is the slime from the Ick going away? Is there now a bacterial infection? Perimeters have not changed and the heater is @ 78 degrees.

Oh, how I hate to keep posting in the 911. :(

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The slime you are talking about sounds like the fish slime coat thickening and falling off. When fish are sick, and stressed, they tend to overproduce the slime coat. (I believe it's some kind of defense mechanism? For protection). The slime coat thickens and flakes off. I went through the same thing. My fish got Ich, it led to fin rot, and overproduction of the slime coat.

When this happened, I was told to try to keep the fish as calm and stress free as possible. NO lights. Put a towel around the tank to keep them in the dark. Often when fish are sick, we watch them more. Pass the tank often, lights flickering on and off. We do that because we wanna know whats going on LOL. BUt it is actually stressing them out, and making things worse. You can check in on the fish of course. But try to keep it to a minimum.

Hopefully the fish will begin to perk up.. If you see the fish start to get worse, you could try ordering some medicated food from GoldfishConnection.com.. It might not be bad to have on hand, but don't open it if you don't need it. If you keep it unopened, and stored in a cool dry place it can last for 6 months. Once you start it, you must feed it only for at least 14 days (30 days is best). So it's not like you just want to give it without good reason. For now, a stress free environment and pristine water is best. But I like to be prepared : )

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Hullo,

I had a quick read of you other threads, you seem to have been very unfortunate :(

It might be worthwhile to check your water parameters again just to make sure. With so many water changes, there is a chance your good bacteria has been disturbed.

Your basic tests for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH would be good.

Regards

Slugger :)

PS Good luck!

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Clearance has now died. And my fantail is dying a slow death...their coats have slimed off and I did everything you all said. Towels no lights, only salt no Ick out. I am so sad. Only my lionhead is now alive & swimming. He is moving into a QT tank. Salt may work for some situations but obviously not mine.

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I'm sorry sweetie. I honestly don't think it's the salt, I think its becase of the Ich meds in the first place that may have damaged them so bad. I know it probably seems like the salt.. But the Ich meds are sooo harsh. Often they leave the fish weaker, more stressed, and then this is when things like fin rot, and excessive slime coat, all of these things start getting worse.

If you are afraid it's the salt, try taking it back to a level of 0.2%. SOme fish do have different salt tolerances, but in this case it sounds more like the Ich meds just weakened the fish.

Since things are getting bad you might want to try a medicated food now. Ich parasites can cause secondary infections, and sometimes they can inject bacteria directly into the fish. The most Ich you have, the more openings for the bacteria to enter. The more likely you are to risk running a secondary infections. There are a few really good medicated foods from GoldfishConnection.com. They are a tad pricey, but they have good results.. YOu can get them overnighted for an extra fee. It may be worth it to you.. You could give Rick a call in the morning, explain your situation, and ask him which med would be best in this case.

There are medicated foods in stores, like Jungle.. Often those meds will keep the infection from spreading, but you need the meds from GFC to clear things up

I am sooo sorry you lost another fish. I really am :cry1 I really hope something can be done about the others...

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Just a note. Many of the ick meds available have formalin in them.

From Wikipedia: Aqueous solutions of formaldehyde are referred to as formalin. "100%" formalin consists of a saturated solution of formaldehyde (roughly 40% by mass) in water, with a small amount of stabilizer, usually methanol to limit oxidation and polymerization.

Formaldehyde is used in curing leather and I also believe it's used for imbalming the dead too. Tho it can be used "safely" in small doses, (like rat poison to thin blood in humans) many types of fish simply cannot handle it.

I almost killed my fish by using a med that was too strong for him. Once the meds were gone, salt helped heal the damage that the meds caused. Tho goldfish are strong fish, they produce alot of ammonia. I think this is the reason they can't handle some meds that other fish can. Maybe it's a chemical reaction, I don't know.

Some goldfish are salt intolerate, but otherwise I don't see where the salt would do anything but help.

Another thing to consider, (which you might already know) is that ick meds will kill off the beneficial bacteria, thus causing BIG spikes of Ammonia, nitrItes, and nitrAtes. If that happened and you didn't know that it did, this could have caused additional problems for the fish leading to their swimming off to heaven.

I'm really sorry you lost some of your babies. :( This is for you :hug

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Thanks very much for the insight of the ICK issue.

The Ick Clear was used for only 2 days and there was improvement then I did a 100% water change, cleaned the tank and began salt. The ick then got much worse. Just difficult to comphrend that the meds did them in when it was only for such a short time. But there is no blame or shame in this unique situation.

At this point I am grateful that my lionhead Lionel seems to be somewhat out of the woods. I have removed him from the 55 gallon and have him in a QT tank. He is swimming and eating well. :) I will be breaking down my 55 gallon, discinfect/bleach it and decide just where to go with my goldies from here. :unsure:

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I'm so sorry that things are so sad. When you bleach make sure to use a mild solution (I think a 1/30th solution is a good mix) and to rinse really well. Then leave your tank out in the sunlight for a few days and do another rinse. Bleach will kill everything, but unfortunately even a tiny amount can harm your fish. I'm so glad Lionel is hanging in there.

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I'm so sorry that things are so sad. When you bleach make sure to use a mild solution (I think a 1/30th solution is a good mix) and to rinse really well. Then leave your tank out in the sunlight for a few days and do another rinse. Bleach will kill everything, but unfortunately even a tiny amount can harm your fish. I'm so glad Lionel is hanging in there.

Amy, I luv ya to pieces.. and because I luv ya I have to say that unfortunately bleach will not kill off everything, especially at that weak of solution. Fluke and ick eggs will survive to be reborn a few days later. I also found out that certain bad bacteria will survive a while even completely dried out.

Here's a link to a pinned disinfecting page http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=41101

Here is what Daryl says, "It really depends on what you are disinfecting - and how you want to do it.

Potassium permanganate is one of the best disinfectants possible. It will take care of just about anything biological. Soak what ever you want to disinfect in a solution of PP that is bright purple for about4 hours. If the solution turns brown, add more until it is purple.

You can fill a tank up to the top and run it purple - through the filters and all and kill everything in the tank. (Remove the fish, please - they will die, also)

IF you have a deep gravel base, remember that any disinfectant cannot reach into every granny of it - and will not do it all. If you really need to zap the WHOLE tank, remove all the gravel and boil it at a rolling boil for 10 minutes. Add about 1T salt to 1 quart of water to increase the boil kill. Or pressure cook - this will kill even the alien infection from outer space or the nasties that never die from Toothless's tank.

If I am "nuking" a tank, I take out everything. Gravel is boiled. Ceramic/rock/bioball media is boiled. Any "soft" media is discarded (sponges, floss, etc.). The biowheel, all the decorations, plastic plants, etc. are dropped in the clean tank. The tank is filled to the very top and the filter is set running with no media, no biowheel. Then the PP is added until it is bright purple. This is run this way for 4 hours. At the end of 4 hours, hydrogen peroxide is added to the tank until the water is clear. Then the tank is emptied, things are rinsed and the tank can be reset and started for fish/cycle again.

A standard concentration of 1:12 bleach/water is what is used for most infectious agents. Some more stubborn infectious agents require a 1:10 concentration. Live plants cannot survive this concentration. 1:19, as Sandy has stated is ok for those. It will not kill all - but will get a lot off the plant. The best way to make sure a plant is clean is to place it in a "iso" tank for a time. Many problems cannot survive without a fish host. A good dechlorinator can detoxify the bleach when you are done.

Between bleach, potassium peroxide, and boiling, you can pretty much sterilize just about anything you want."

Two things to note. Aquarium gravel sold today is covered by a thin coating of resin. It will come off if you boil the gravel. Also, PP crystals can be hard to find. Kordon makes a product called Permoxyn that is a 3.84% PP solution that Toothless talks about in the pinned disinfecting page in the planted tanks section. It's much easier to find.

Now, I am no expert. I have only been here a couple of months myself and am learning loads everyday, but I spent two days researching ways to disinfect Elvis' equipment after he came down with a bad fluke infestation. That is the only reason I know this stuff.

Amy, I hope you'll forgive me for correcting you and will still be my friend. ::waiting nervously for Amy's forgiveness:: ;)

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Finally some good news! Gemini my calico Fantail pulled through the night. And today he has been swimming around almost like normal. What was especially nice was that he swam toward me like he had missed me. I fed him a tiny bit of gel food this morning and he ate all of it. Then tonight he actually swam (as best as he could with his fin rot) to the top of the tank for another little bit of gel food...HAND FED! I almost fell over in happiness. Not sure if we are completely out of the tunnel yet but this glimmer of light has helped my spirit tremendously.

Oh, and Lionel is doing much better as well. I hope I can get the 2 of them back together in good health in the next week or so. :)

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I'm so sorry that things are so sad. When you bleach make sure to use a mild solution (I think a 1/30th solution is a good mix) and to rinse really well. Then leave your tank out in the sunlight for a few days and do another rinse. Bleach will kill everything, but unfortunately even a tiny amount can harm your fish. I'm so glad Lionel is hanging in there.

Amy, I luv ya to pieces.. and because I luv ya I have to say that unfortunately bleach will not kill off everything, especially at that weak of solution. Fluke and ick eggs will survive to be reborn a few days later. I also found out that certain bad bacteria will survive a while even completely dried out.

Here's a link to a pinned disinfecting page http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=41101

Here is what Daryl says, "It really depends on what you are disinfecting - and how you want to do it.

Potassium permanganate is one of the best disinfectants possible. It will take care of just about anything biological. Soak what ever you want to disinfect in a solution of PP that is bright purple for about4 hours. If the solution turns brown, add more until it is purple.

You can fill a tank up to the top and run it purple - through the filters and all and kill everything in the tank. (Remove the fish, please - they will die, also)

IF you have a deep gravel base, remember that any disinfectant cannot reach into every granny of it - and will not do it all. If you really need to zap the WHOLE tank, remove all the gravel and boil it at a rolling boil for 10 minutes. Add about 1T salt to 1 quart of water to increase the boil kill. Or pressure cook - this will kill even the alien infection from outer space or the nasties that never die from Toothless's tank.

If I am "nuking" a tank, I take out everything. Gravel is boiled. Ceramic/rock/bioball media is boiled. Any "soft" media is discarded (sponges, floss, etc.). The biowheel, all the decorations, plastic plants, etc. are dropped in the clean tank. The tank is filled to the very top and the filter is set running with no media, no biowheel. Then the PP is added until it is bright purple. This is run this way for 4 hours. At the end of 4 hours, hydrogen peroxide is added to the tank until the water is clear. Then the tank is emptied, things are rinsed and the tank can be reset and started for fish/cycle again.

A standard concentration of 1:12 bleach/water is what is used for most infectious agents. Some more stubborn infectious agents require a 1:10 concentration. Live plants cannot survive this concentration. 1:19, as Sandy has stated is ok for those. It will not kill all - but will get a lot off the plant. The best way to make sure a plant is clean is to place it in a "iso" tank for a time. Many problems cannot survive without a fish host. A good dechlorinator can detoxify the bleach when you are done.

Between bleach, potassium peroxide, and boiling, you can pretty much sterilize just about anything you want."

Two things to note. Aquarium gravel sold today is covered by a thin coating of resin. It will come off if you boil the gravel. Also, PP crystals can be hard to find. Kordon makes a product called Permoxyn that is a 3.84% PP solution that Toothless talks about in the pinned disinfecting page in the planted tanks section. It's much easier to find.

Now, I am no expert. I have only been here a couple of months myself and am learning loads everyday, but I spent two days researching ways to disinfect Elvis' equipment after he came down with a bad fluke infestation. That is the only reason I know this stuff.

Amy, I hope you'll forgive me for correcting you and will still be my friend. ::waiting nervously for Amy's forgiveness:: ;)

This was extremely helpful should I chose to "kill" my tank, but with the 2 remaining fish improving I may not need to (fingers crossed). I am faithfully following the salt solution however did move Lionel into a QT tank because his body was completely covered in slime and I was concerned about infection. After just a day he looks much better and as my previous post details, Gemini also seems to be coming around. I may be saddened with the loss of my 3 orandas but I think we all are going to survive with some lessons learned. Thanks all!

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That is EXCELLENT NEWS : ) I am soo happy he pulled through, and I hope they keep getting better..

Amy, you should NOT forgive Roni. That is unacceptable : ) :rofl LMAO (Sarcasm in case anyone missed it)

We're all learning, and sharing opinions and information that we have learned... Correcting someone, or providing extra information is always a good thing I think, as long as you say it politely (which you did) and don't act like a know it all (and you didn't).

It helps us learn for the future, and thats good : ) One time I told someone I didn't think they wanted to use harsh meds when they had velvet. I said there was a chance salt might do it. I wasn't sure though, so I just asked them to hold off until a mod came along. Trinket said "Actually, in the case of velvet, salt usually will not work". She recommended the treatment that was appropriate. I think all of us are giving the best info we can, and trying to help the best way we can. And if someone can come along and correct it, or add it it, it's helpful..

Actually, I LIKE that about this board. We are all friends, and no one (that I have really seen) is every trying to do anything but help. And also, there are simply opinions that are different, and sometimes different methods.. I think everyone pitches in a little here or there, and in the end, we all do the best we can..

Not that there was ever a real questions about whether Amy would forgive you, or really anything to be forgiven. : )

Back to the actual part about the cleaning, I actually had no idea how to do it either, and I found all the various methods.. In the end, I chose to use PP, because it seemed easier, safer, and because Daryl gave good instructions, and even when I had MORE questions, she answered them. I knew she was very experienced, so i listened to her. Very pleased with the results as well... I used it to wipe out a tank that was diseased ridden.. and then I used that very tank to put my new (expensive) babies in! I was scared, but they are doing WELL! AS far as I can tell it wiped out everything (including the cycle of course, so you do have to recycle the tank. Fishless if possible). For me, it did not stain either.. Well I got a pinkish stain on my hands that lasted about a day, but thats cause I didn't listen when I was told to wear gloves lol

So smilingfish, are the fish now just in reg water with no meds? Just curious..

**edit*** oh you just answered that while I was typing! : )

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Roni, you are so silly! Of course, I forgive you (though you really don't need forgivenss) and I would rather Smiling Fish get better information than not! You've dealt with this. And actually because of you I just ordered Permoxyn from Goldfish Connection. Actually, since you have dealt with it, did you use it straight or did you dilute it? I'm planning to use it for cleaning live plants.

I sort of semi-nuked my tank when I lost both Searchlight and Tangerine. I couldn't get PP and bleach just made me too nervous. I was really scared that I would miss some of my rinsing and hurt them. It just didn't seem worth the risk to me. So I researched and did my own technique which isn't really officially nuking but worked. I ran the tank with a high salt percentage (bascially I ran it through with saltwater) for twenty-four hours and then I ran it through with a strong with vinegar concentrate for two days. Then I rinsed everything well and got the tank up and running and did a fishless cycle for six weeks (long enough to kill anything that needs a host).

One question I had that I never really got an answer to was about boiling anything that has been resined. Geoff and I use resin for artwork all the time and the fumes are highly toxic. You are actually supposed to wear a mask when you pour it and it says to avoid heat. Because of that I've been really concerned about boiling anything with resin because it releases toxic fumes (bad for you when boiling as well) that I would think could poison the fish. It is an expense but I just felt better buying new gravel or PP'ing it.

Anyway, the big thing is that the fish are doing better...yay!

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Roni, you are so silly! Of course, I forgive you (though you really don't need forgivenss) and I would rather Smiling Fish get better information than not! You've dealt with this. And actually because of you I just ordered Permoxyn from Goldfish Connection. Actually, since you have dealt with it, did you use it straight or did you dilute it? I'm planning to use it for cleaning live plants.

Toothless gives very detailed directions for disinfecting plants in the planted tank area, here's the link. http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=35594.

According to what was told to me, I simply pour in small amounts until the water is a deep purple and let it go (with bubblers) for about four or 5 hours, then rinse them in the water I have changed or removed from Elvis tank and leave them for 48 hours. I then change the water with more from his tank for 48 hours longer then PP again, with a color of psychedelic deep purple, not as strong as first time and let it process itself out to clear or until it turns brown, then rinse again. They go another 48 hours, and by then all the snails are dead and I feel it's safe to put into the tank.

I think I have a weird goldfish. Elvis nibbles a bit on the three in his tank now, but he hasn't really eaten any of them. I have 5 more that I am processing right now. Kordon's makes a really good plant pea gravel that contains dolomite that I use with big rocks on top so Elvis won't swallow the little rocks or catch them in his jaws. So far, I only lost one plant by using this method. BTW, next time you need PP, call around to shops that have Koi or pond equipment and ask for it. Then you won't have to pay for shipping.

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Thanks for the info, Roni! I was going to call around, but knew I wanted to order food anyway so thought what the heck. I didn't get Prazi though, because I know I can find that from somewhere around here.

And I like your process. Rick said I could just soak them for four hours in the PP and then it was safe, but that doesn't seem like quite enough to me.

Where are you finding your plants?

And Smiling Fish, how is everyone?

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Thanks for the info, Roni! I was going to call around, but knew I wanted to order food anyway so thought what the heck. I didn't get Prazi though, because I know I can find that from somewhere around here.

And I like your process. Rick said I could just soak them for four hours in the PP and then it was safe, but that doesn't seem like quite enough to me.

Where are you finding your plants?

And Smiling Fish, how is everyone?

Well its a long story but only Lionel the Lionhead survived the Ick Issue. Gemini passed this morning after a courageous battle. We had power outage for the past 3 days and by the time we got the generator hooked up to all 14 tanks it was too late for him. He will be missed. :cry1

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What a terrible time for the power to go out.. I am soooooooooo sorry... That is terrible news..I really wish there had been a happier ending here, I really do..

I am glad Lionel made it through... Did you end up sticking to salt, or did you give in and do the meds like your husband wanted?

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What a terrible time for the power to go out.. I am soooooooooo sorry... That is terrible news..I really wish there had been a happier ending here, I really do..

I am glad Lionel made it through... Did you end up sticking to salt, or did you give in and do the meds like your husband wanted?

Well I didn't give in but chose to let him med Lionel with Fungus Clear if he really thought it best. With the power outage there was very little left to do until we got our generator up and going. We had to address our largest tanks first and then work our way down to the ill fish. Within 24 hours Lionel looked completely normal and today is swimming like nothing ever happened in a nice clean 15 gallon aquarium which he can call home until we break down the 55 gallon ICKy tank.

I am so very grateful the one goldfish I have had the longest (@ year and half now) Lionel is just fine. :)

Thanks for the many inquiries, sympathies, and advice. It was a horrific ordeal and then to have the power lost for so long...let's just say we now have power and all is well.

Cheers,

Annette

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I am just really happy to hear that Lionel made it through...especially since he obviously means soo much to you. I really am sorry about the loss of the other fish.. Whatever ended up helping Lionel, I am just soooo glad it did! : ) And glad your power is back as well...

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