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Guest pinkspore

Another Oranda Dying!

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"Over a month ago I set it up at my fiance's apartment to cycle. We put one small Oranda from the lfs in, and a week later added another Oranda and a Ryukin. The ammonia in the 55 gallon was very high continually, usually 1ppm. The tap water here has chloramine in it. After a week or so, one Oranda got stuck in the filter intake, so I moved him to the 20 gallon at my house to recover with my finless fantail. Within a couple of days he was just fine, and the fantail perked up as soon as I introduced him."

Well, now it is easier to see the path your problems have taken. Let's take for granted that all lfs fish generally have parasites or are carrying them. In a new uncycled tank just one fish is usually enough to handle whilst cycling; but after a week you added two more, thereby increasing the free ammonia, threefold. Without any established cycle to convert ammonia you would have needed massive daily changes to keep the parameters safe. (ie if your ammonia is 1ppm and you change 50% you will still be left with 0.50ppm) So, at this point your fish were under enormous stress which weakens their defences. This is when they become easy meat for parasites which can quickly overwhelm them. I think the combination of new tank syndrome and flukes is what has gone wrong for you. By moving your sick oranda in with the fantail I'm afraid you have moved his fluke load in, too. It's for this reason we always recommend running a quarantine proceedure to screen new fish for parasites; it involves raising salt to 0.3%, raising heat and adding Prazi.

Just one thought about your water testing and chloramines from the tap. I'm not sure which test kit you have, but, if you are using AmQuel, the test results when used in conjunction with a Nessler type kit (Yellow/gold colours) will be unreliable - the reagents disturb the colour control. The Salicylate kits (yellow/green) are the ones to use with AmQuel.

As Mads says, it will help you in future to keep all the info on the same thread, OR post a link to any previous relevant topics, so that everything of note is included. I often try to search a persons other threads for clues and info but this takes forever (as you can imagine) and I don't always have time to do such an in depth investigation.

Don't be put off fishkeeping because of your initial losses. Many of us started out where you are now and you will learn a tremendous amount if you stick with it. Fish do die from time to time, even in the hands of experienced keepers, but quarantining is the most important step when starting a new tank or introducing new fish.

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Guest pinkspore

Well, the Ryukin made it through the night. He's still alternating swimming around looking normal and drifting around looking dead. Can't decide if he's getting better or worse now.

I am using the API test kit, the ammonia turns yellow or green, so I think I've got the right thing.

I just read the thread on quarantine procedures, and my first thought was "Where on earth would I put yet another tank?!" I know it's the best thing for the fish, but right now we're scrambling to find places for the tanks we have within the next 8 days. I have no idea where or how I could install another tank, cycle it, maintain it, etc. for months. Does everyone else just have an extra established tank just sitting around?

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pinkspore I hope your Ryukin pulls through! I know you're getting good advice here.

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to answer your question about having an extra cycled tank, -A good way to doing this is to have a second filter set up on your tank (you can't over filter your tank!), you can get a 10 gal bucket or 'rubbermaid' tote box that you can dedicate to fish things and then bring it out when needed for quarrantine procedures. (I have a tote box that I use to store all my goldfish paraphenalia in and when I need the box I empty all my gear into plastic bags for the duration of QT being set up) when you need to set up your QT all you need to do is transfer some of your tank water and your extra filter for an instant cycle! :)

Glad to hear your fish pulled through the night, lets hope it makes it to the time you get your meds.

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Just wanted to add to Mads advice (I do the same thing as she does): I think you can easily use your 20 gal as the QT while you're waiting for the 55 to cycle. You could treat both the fish in there as it is already cycled - am I right that you are down to the ryukin and the fantail? - meanwhile you could continue the 55g as a fishless cycle by adding pure ammonia. You don't necessarily need a different tank to observe the QT proceedure - you can take all the necessary steps with what you have.

Good news that he lasted through the night :)

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Guest pinkspore

Still hanging in there! Either the Jungle tabs helped, or Sergei is just a tough little bugger. He's still alternating alert swimming/feeding with limp drifting, but I don't think he's getting worse.

-A good way to doing this is to have a second filter set up on your tank (you can't over filter your tank!),

That would be a great idea if my tank would cooperate. We already had to cut the slot in the top to fit the two filters we have side by side. I'm not sure if the structure would still be sound if we got out the hacksaw and cut it that much bigger. I'll have to remember that idea if we ever change the filter setup, though. It's great!

I can use my 20 gallon as a quarantine tank for now, but the big problem is that next Saturday I will be moving and there's really no place for the 20 gallon tank at the new place. We're still scrambling to find sturdy flat surfaces for the guppies, gecko, and snake, there's just not room for another tank or tub. Also, I'd really like to have more than 2 fish in my big tank ultimately. I don't know how I would quarantine anyone else in the future, either. Maybe I'll just treat the whole big tank for flukes everytime I add someone...

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"Also, I'd really like to have more than 2 fish in my big tank ultimately. I don't know how I would quarantine anyone else in the future, either. Maybe I'll just treat the whole big tank for flukes everytime I add someone..."

Hmm, I don't really think this would be practical - there is more to worry about out there than just flukes and treating a whole healthy tank for one fishes illness is not good for them. A bit like having to take antibiotics when you are fine just because your partner has an infection.

The best thing to do is to get an extra internal filter like a Fluval or AquaOne to run on your 55g - there is no need to hack the top open, as all that is needed is space for the wire. If you get a 10g rubbermaid/plastic crate, you could put it anywhere there is a plug-point whenever you get a new fish. I often just put mine on the dining room floor.

Regarding the move - can you not simply transfer your existing cycled filter/s onto the 55g? Then you would not need to find space for the 20g.

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Guest pinkspore

I think I might be able to fit a 10 gallon tank in the bottom of my tank stand, that would probably keep it safe from the dog and cat. I could definitely do an internal filter, that's a great idea!

The whole filter thing is kind of complicated. The 55 gallon tank came with an Aquaclear 300. The 20 gallon was running an Aquaclear 200 and a Penguin 150. To try and cycle the tank faster I took the entire Aquaclear 200 and put it on the 55 gallon. This didn't seem to help.

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Oh I am so sorry! It is so frusting to watch and not know how to help! Everyone at Kokos helped me get my fishies through! Don't give up! For a while there I was just like you, frustrated and sad. I was doing 50% water change in the morning and 25% at night for 2 weeks. Then the fishies got better even though a lost a few. Hang in there!!! :heart

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Guest pinkspore

Sergei is still hanging in there! My order from the goldfish connection arrived today so I could finally dose the tank with PraziPro. Johann my precious fantail is happy and eating. Sergei has been scaring people for 4 days now, he lays on his side on the bottom or drifts around limply, and then when I come over to look at him he snaps out of it and swims around a little. He's been getting weaker and weaker, though. Every time I check on him I expect him to be dead. I'm really hoping he's still strong enough to recover.

I put a teaspoon of the PraziPro in the 20 gallon tank, and Johann ate a couple of pieces of Medi-Gold. Sergei isn't strong enought o eat right now. I'm really hoping for some recovery overnight.

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i hope your fish take a turn for the better!

i will keep my fingers crossed for you! :heart

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Guest pinkspore

No improvement. I'm stunned he has lasted this long.

Since I moved everybody from the 55 gallon to the 20 gallon a bit over a week ago, do I need to treat the 20 gallon for flukes as well?

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:hmm Did you mean to say this the other way around? ie. as the fish are in the 20g, does the 55 need treating?

The 20g certainly needs treating as the fish are in there - flukes are on the fish. I would also treat the 55g to catch any stages left behind.

I would try to force feed the sick fish some MediGold - lift him gently above the waterline to make him gape and drop a couple of soaked pellets into his open mouth.

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Guest pinkspore

Yes, thank you for deciphering what I meant. Do you think treating the 55 gallon once would be enough? Or should I treat it again in a couple weeks?

I'll definetely try feeding Sergei some MediGold. Hopefully he'll start improving soon.

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Guest pinkspore

I tried popping some food in his mouth, but he spit it out quite forcefully. I'm hoping the whole process didn't stress him out too much.

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Guest pinkspore

Sergei the Ryukin finally died this evening. My fantail is still looking happy and perky, though. I guess once my big tank cycles I might think about getting him some buddies.

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Rick at Goldfishconnection sent me an email today about the prazi pro (q) I ordered. In order to make sure flukes are completely gone. You first need to do the largest water change possible. Remove carbon filter, follow dosing instructions on meds, 6 doses (6 days in a row) with a 20% water change in between doses.

Yes you will become a water keeper! But in the end it will work out for the best.

I am soooo very sorry about your fish. I cried for days.

Make sure the water is perfectly cycled before adding more fish. I think pixie or trinket has a link to the wonders of flukes and the importance of water levels. They pulled me through an unbelievalbe mess I got into. 7 fish in a 20 gall uncycled tank.

You can do it! :goodluck

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Guest pinkspore

Do fish get lonely? My fantail is bottom sitting now. When I originally took out his common buddy he started bottom sitting, and didn't get any better until I moved another fish into the tank with him. Now his last tankmate is gone and he's right back on the bottom again.

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Oh no! I'm so sorry you lost him. :cry1

Sometimes they are just too far gone for the meds to pull them back. Spitting out food is a common response when fish have a heavy fluke load.

Regarding your fantail, I think the best plan is to continue and complete meds as directed. Some people do say that their fish are visibly lonely when their tank mate disappears, but I tend to think that bottom-sitting is an indication of illness or water quality rather than just 'feeling lonely'. Make sure to vac and water change very regularly at the moment - immature flukes will gather in the gravel and once a fish is hanging around the bottom the fluke population can really move in fast.

Newbie's Prazi directions came very helpfully while I was off, so I would also follow a treatment plan on the cycling 55g, too - so that it is pristine for your fish to move into.

Now you know about quarantining and you have your Prazi, you can find new friends for your fantail to share the 55 with. I would only add one at a time to the new tank to allow the filter to expand to meet the newly increased waste output.

Aren't you about to get married and move any minute? I've lost track of everything a little.

Anyway, I hope you can manage all this when you must have so many other things on your mind. Just keep thinking how nice the finished 55 will be with new fish............

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Guest pinkspore

I'm vacuuming and doing a 20% wc daily right now. Tomorrow will be the last day I can do it, though. I'll be back on Wednesday and will move the 20 gallon tank either then or Thursday. There's just a couple of small patches of gravel in the tank now, and it will all go when we move. We're also going to do some major tank-swapping when the 55 is cycled. The guppies will go into the 20 gallon, the fantail will go into the 55 gallon, and I have an internal filter to keep in the 55 gallon so I can get a quarantine tank going.

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Well, I'm back and we're all moved in. Johann the fantail is in the 55 gallon tank and has been swimming all over the place. I started treating that tank for flukes yesterday, so it will get the whole course. Got an internal fiter going in there for future use in a quarantine tank, and a 10 gallon in the stand.

Johann is a lot of fun to watch, his tail is still very short so he swims really jerky. The rest of his fins are really big and beautiful now, hopefully his dorsal fin will round out eventually.

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Pinkspore, all your fish are doing okay now? :)

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Guest pinkspore

Well, I'm down to one goldfish, and he's in the 55 gallon tank doing the same thing he did in the 20 gallon: hanging around in one corner of the tank and hiding anytime people are nearby. I need to start quarantining another fish so he can have some company. Last time he was all alone he acted like this until I put someone else in there with him, and then he acted just fine.

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