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jamisskat

What Kind Of Fry...

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I was wondering if a deformed GF Breed with a normal GF would there be a chance for deformed babies?...Tama is a boy and one day I want him with the others in the pond..just curious since there would be that chance of him fertilizing eggs....I don't want this to happen if the fry would be born sick or badly deformed...And I'm no good at culling.. If bad fry would come out of a spawn then Tama is going to be living a lonely life with no other GF...

Edited by jewels

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I think it is possible that deformations are inherited. I got a double tailed fry and I let him breed with his sister. They got many double tailed babies. If that is a deformation, I don't know. They are beautiful.

Can't you keep Tama with males only?

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I think it is possible that deformations are inherited. I got a double tailed fry and I let him breed with his sister. They got many double tailed babies. If that is a deformation, I don't know. They are beautiful.

Can't you keep Tama with males only?

Well my husband has this idea of setting up another pond on the other side of the 5,000 g.. my 125g pond sets off this area also..I guess I could put him in with a male from my gang...Or try to find him a buddy by spring..A male buddy that is...lol...That's interesting, I wonder If Tama was born like that or maybe had a mouth infection at one time that healed...If you look closely you can see where it's fused shut on each side of the mouth.. very weird looking...I don't worry about him eating anymore though since watching him today..he's able to pick the food up and while it's still floating around he just sucks it in..its almost like he does this on purpose to be able to eat...smart fish I tell ya.. I just don't want sick fry or fry who need to be culled...

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Before I say anything about future offspring of your fish - let me first say - one of the reasons that Koko's is so friendly is that we strive to have all the members participate. This was one of the problems we had with "Wait until a mod gets here to answer your questions" type post. You do not necessarily HAVE to have a mod answer - there are a good many very qualified people here on the site that are not mods or helpers - and they know the answers, too. In fact - I reckon we have hundreds of lifetimes of experience between the collective membership, here, on Koko's.

So - if you KNOW an answer - please, post up. Do not be afraid to chime in. Many times we learn things - or different ways of doing things or such - from different people. If you do not know the answer - read up and learn! I do not answer many times because I do not KNOW. But I love to learn. And the membership here has much to teach.

Now - as far as breeding, in just about every spawning you are going to have fry that are "mismade" - ones that are not put together right or ones that have difficulties with swimming or with getting their first air or whatever. No matter how fancy, how perfect or how expensive the parents are, you are ALWAYS going to have the "flawed" babies.

Goldfish genetics, believe it or not, is one of the most complicated genetic codes there is. IT is thought that this is partly because man has been "messing" with the breeds since "time began"!!!! Unless you luck out and find a couple of fish that is, genetically, perfectly compatible, you may have upwards of 50% of the fry that are not viable. I have heard of crosses that produce even less than that. Sometimes the cross you think would be GREAT, turns out to be only so-so. Sometimes the one you think might be so-so gives you a high percentage of good offspring. Last year, I was lucky to have 1 in 1000 that was good quality in one cross. Since I had only one female, I was kinda stuck, so I crossed her with 4 different males. One was "good", one was "bad" and the other two were "ok". This year, I crossed back the sisters/brothers to themselves - and it looks like I am going to get about 65-70% good babies! That is amazing. But crossing two unrelated fish may not work very well.

Even with a "good cross", though, you MUST be willing to accept the fact that you are going to have a fair number of fry that simply are not going to make it. They may not have proper digestion or mouths may be made wrong or the fish may be single or double or crooked or mis-matched or ..... the list goes on and on and on. IF you are not prepared for this possibility, no, you should not breed.

Nature makes the goldfish lay thousands of eggs. In nature, only a few of the "best" survive. The others are simply not made to. You, too, will need to sort through thousands of eggs/fry to find fish that can live. You need to be the "Predator" that selects the "best" to survive. It is not an easy job for many.

If your fish's mouth deformity is mechanical - meaning itcame from a past injury, then the fry have no greater chance of having the same mouth deformity than any other fry do. If your fish's mouth deformity was genetically determined, it STILL does not mean you will see fry like that. There is no "mouth gene". So many of the genes are linked and partially expressed that the mouth deformity may be so buried in other traits that you never see it. On the other hand, it may be something that comes out - more or less deformed than the parent's - possibly making it so some of the fry do not ever grow up.

It is hard to know - impossible to predict.

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Thanks Daryl...Sorry. If I seemed rude about needing a mod :hide: I love when all people answer... I was looking for anyone to help me :) I Will not breed him and I will prevent any Fry If I can be keeping him directly with males ONLY... I bet though given a chance he would make some interesting fry...But, I wont simply since he's surely not 100% Oranda...I have no clue to what he's crossed with...But either way he's perfect in my eyes... :exactly

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You were NOT rude - and there is no need to apologize. I just wanted to take the opportunity to dispell the notion that some have gotten recently that we only want "Mods" (or Helpers) to answer questions. That is simply NOT true.

What we want to avoid is either blatantly wrong answers ( but if you do answer incorrectly - that is still fine - as long as it is an honest mistake - good grief - I certainly make enough of them!) or so many responses that encourage the original poster but do not have any specific information.

Encouragemet posts are GREAT - and very nice. The problem is that, if you get too many of them, the original question can get lost in the shuffle. That is all. ANYONE is ENCOURAGED to answer if you think you can be of help - just as anyone is encouraged to ask questions if you have a question. That is how we all learn - by sharing the experiences we have. Together we have sooooooo much information and knowledge - sharing it is the whole reason for Koko's!!

:)

I do not know that you should NEVER breed your fish - but if you are not prepared for culling, it may be a choice you do not wish to make. Breeding, no matter how wonderful the parents are, does result in a number of non-viable fry that cannot live. It can be difficult. But it can have great rewards if you do decide to go that way. There is nothing so wonderful - nothing that makes you swell with pride -like seeing a little fish swimming happily in your tank - one that you raised from just a tiny egg. It does not matter if it is a show winner - or just a bright happy little guy - it is still a big thrill. :)

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You were NOT rude - and there is no need to apologize. I just wanted to take the opportunity to dispell the notion that some have gotten recently that we only want "Mods" (or Helpers) to answer questions. That is simply NOT true.

What we want to avoid is either blatantly wrong answers ( but if you do answer incorrectly - that is still fine - as long as it is an honest mistake - good grief - I certainly make enough of them!) or so many responses that encourage the original poster but do not have any specific information.

Encouragemet posts are GREAT - and very nice. The problem is that, if you get too many of them, the original question can get lost in the shuffle. That is all. ANYONE is ENCOURAGED to answer if you think you can be of help - just as anyone is encouraged to ask questions if you have a question. That is how we all learn - by sharing the experiences we have. Together we have sooooooo much information and knowledge - sharing it is the whole reason for Koko's!!

:)

I do not know that you should NEVER breed your fish - but if you are not prepared for culling, it may be a choice you do not wish to make. Breeding, no matter how wonderful the parents are, does result in a number of non-viable fry that cannot live. It can be difficult. But it can have great rewards if you do decide to go that way. There is nothing so wonderful - nothing that makes you swell with pride -like seeing a little fish swimming happily in your tank - one that you raised from just a tiny egg. It does not matter if it is a show winner - or just a bright happy little guy - it is still a big thrill. :)

Thanks Daryl...Well I may allow him to join then..I just want the best for this little guy...I bet though he'd at least produce 1 great looker :rolleyes: ...I want fry again so bad..either my fish hold out or they eat the eggs.. or the most common thing is that they lay eggs in QT and have none left in the main tank :rofl ...Bella sure will give fry sooner or later.. Do you think Tama will live a full life?..I know that's hard to say.. but could be possible theres a internal disorder too? he's eating very well he's got this method down well.. I'll drop food in and he picks it up and just as soon as it starts floating he sucks it in...I feel so badly for him..i just couldn't leave him there to suffer or worse go home to a bowl..

Edited by jewels

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He's a beautiful fish Jewels and from reading your posts and seeing pics he looks and sounds to have a very spunky cute li'l personality too :D . As Daryl says it is your choice if you wish to breed him with another or allow for that to happen. I don't know much about how genetics work so cannot help with that.

There's another member here (I think it's sea) who also has a fish with a mouth deformity/anomoly. Her fish has a cross bite. That is a lower jutting jaw, you can see it in some deep sea fish and it's a genetic crossover that apparantly very occasionally occurs in goldies.

I am glad your fish is eating and hope it is just a genetic abnormalityy but there is also an internal infection that affects the mouth in a way that narrows down the entrance to a mere hole. Uberleslie's fish suffered from it (and is now healed) so do watch out for any odd behavior that just might indicate that Tama has some small ulcers in his mouth or an inflammation type infection. Poor nutrition in the past is especially responsible for some mouth infections.

It does seem unlikely since he is eating so well but I would just watch him closely, checking his poop is normal looking, how much he is actually eating and if he is growing and so on.

Well, don't mind me. I'm always on the lookout for disease in my fish, I have to learn to enjoy them more!! I did have a fry you see who also had a funny pinprick mouth. I put it down to her being the smallest and getting the least nutrition...It eventually went back to normal on its own :)

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He's a beautiful fish Jewels and from reading your posts and seeing pics he looks and sounds to have a very spunky cute li'l personality too :D . As Daryl says it is your choice if you wish to breed him with another or allow for that to happen. I don't know much about how genetics work so cannot help with that.

There's another member here (I think it's sea) who also has a fish with a mouth deformity/anomoly. Her fish has a cross bite. That is a lower jutting jaw, you can see it in some deep sea fish and it's a genetic crossover that apparantly very occasionally occurs in goldies.

I am glad your fish is eating and hope it is just a genetic abnormalityy but there is also an internal infection that affects the mouth in a way that narrows down the entrance to a mere hole. Uberleslie's fish suffered from it (and is now healed) so do watch out for any odd behavior that just might indicate that Tama has some small ulcers in his mouth or an inflammation type infection. Poor nutrition in the past is especially responsible for some mouth infections.

It does seem unlikely since he is eating so well but I would just watch him closely, checking his poop is normal looking, how much he is actually eating and if he is growing and so on.

Well, don't mind me. I'm always on the lookout for disease in my fish, I have to learn to enjoy them more!! I did have a fry you see who also had a funny pinprick mouth. I put it down to her being the smallest and getting the least nutrition...It eventually went back to normal on its own :)

Hi Trinket! :) ..I'm pretty sure it's a mouth defect...But I will surely keep an eye out for any possible future issues If it's indeed an infection... What makes me believe it's a defect is because his body is all out of shape...His Dorsal fin sets back further and his head takes shape of a triangle...I have no clue why he's got such fancy fins but they are very long and flowing..So far his poo's are normal.. short-med length and the same color as his food...And yes, He's sure got a great personality :wub: He wants attention it seems..lol...as far as breeding...I guess it will be up to him..I want him to be outside eventually and enjoy the others..If it happends then I'll have to deal with it I guess..But on the other hand I'm sure I wont really know if he fathers any Fry being that theres already so many males against my girls...Can't several fish fertilize eggs at one time anyways?...But I just love him and yes he's eating good..I'm feeding him about 6 small meals daily..I know seem much but there very tiny feedings...When I brought him home he was indeed very skinny but having him about 48hrs now his belly is looking normal...I hope he grows..I wish I had a bigger tub to put him in..He's in my 10G QT and the way he likes to swim around he really needs something bigger.. which is what also makes me feel like he's part comet or something in that line of breeds...

Edited by jewels

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Yup - since fish are "broadcast" fertilizers, the single drop of eggs can be ferlitilzed by any males that happen to be in the area.

I was thinking on your fishy last night - and I remembered that there was a Britol Shubie at last year's show. It took Reserve Grand Champ - and it had a misformed mouth. The judge stated that, had it had a "regular" mouth, it would have been Gd. Champ. The reason I remembered it was that every Bristol at the show had that mouth - kinda looked like they had had a broken jaw in their "youth" - and that it was genetic. The breeder had given multiple fish to multiple people - so they were all from the same line. So in this case, the jaw WAS genetically reproduced - and it was significant enough of a genetic trait that it was reproduced pretty accurately and specifically in the generations.

That does not mean that yours will, though. But the point I guess I was making is that, even with a misshapen jaw, the fish can have a GOOD life - and grow large and breed well and be happy. That winning Shubie was the biggest Bristol the judge had ever seen. She lived year round in a pond with koi - and did just fine.

So, if you wish to add your fish to your pond and give him a shot at being a "dad", I see no reason why you should not. Chances are you will never see any that look like "dad". If they do, they still have the potential for a full, happy life. That is all a fry really needs - and even with the "best crosses" there will be alot that do not get that chance.

:)

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Sorry, I just had to post a pic of my fry Maxi... He was deformed.

The pic is bad but you can see he had that "beak" too.

Bild406.jpg

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Sorry, I just had to post a pic of my fry Maxi... He was deformed.

The pic is bad but you can see he had that "beak" too.

Bild406.jpg

OMG..That looks just like Tama !..That's exactly how he looks.. the mouth is indeed beak like...Is Maxi still alive Annette?

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Yup - since fish are "broadcast" fertilizers, the single drop of eggs can be ferlitilzed by any males that happen to be in the area.

I was thinking on your fishy last night - and I remembered that there was a Britol Shubie at last year's show. It took Reserve Grand Champ - and it had a misformed mouth. The judge stated that, had it had a "regular" mouth, it would have been Gd. Champ. The reason I remembered it was that every Bristol at the show had that mouth - kinda looked like they had had a broken jaw in their "youth" - and that it was genetic. The breeder had given multiple fish to multiple people - so they were all from the same line. So in this case, the jaw WAS genetically reproduced - and it was significant enough of a genetic trait that it was reproduced pretty accurately and specifically in the generations.

That does not mean that yours will, though. But the point I guess I was making is that, even with a misshapen jaw, the fish can have a GOOD life - and grow large and breed well and be happy. That winning Shubie was the biggest Bristol the judge had ever seen. She lived year round in a pond with koi - and did just fine.

So, if you wish to add your fish to your pond and give him a shot at being a "dad", I see no reason why you should not. Chances are you will never see any that look like "dad". If they do, they still have the potential for a full, happy life. That is all a fry really needs - and even with the "best crosses" there will be alot that do not get that chance.

:)

Well in that case he's going into the pond..Although I'm wondering if I should put him into the 5,000 p since he looks rather long..I bet he's going to get huge!..If he's indeed cross between comet or something he will favor better in the bigger pond...My hubby did say that we are def getting a bigger premade pond for the other side of the 5,000 p...so far I have my 125g set up next to it.. it's very pretty..just as soon as I get the mess cleaned up I'll update pics in the diary of my pond.

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OMG..That looks just like Tama !..That's exactly how he looks.. the mouth is indeed beak like...Is Maxi still alive Annette?

No, he died of dropsy when I was in hospital with my son, he broke his leg.

He was a sensitive fish, my first fry. He was one years old...

Edited by OldHag

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OMG..That looks just like Tama !..That's exactly how he looks.. the mouth is indeed beak like...Is Maxi still alive Annette?

No, he died of dropsy when I was in hospital with my son, he broke his leg.

He was a sensitive fish, my first fry. He was one years old...

Awww R.I.P. Maxi....I had 1 fry last yr..Jelly Bean...He only lived until 12 weeks..I was soooo sad...I'm ready for Fry again..

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Thanks, yes that was hard. He was special.

I wish you good luck with Tama!

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Thanks, yes that was hard. He was special.

I wish you good luck with Tama!

Thankyou so much!..I'm going to be doing a fluke treatment on him as well next week..Cuz you never know :exactly ...DO you think feeding him 6 small meals is to much?..Theres no food left over on the bottom but I still do about a 2g WC on his 10g QT tank everyday..

Edited by jewels

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