Jump to content
Kokos Goldfish Forum
Sign in to follow this  
jetman73

Pro Form C

Recommended Posts

I see numerous people here on the board seem too be fighting persistent parasitic problems. There is a product available called Pro Form C that could help many of you but it is mainly marketed too pond owners. It is basically a malachite green and formalin combo that is safe for your fish and filter when dosed correctly. It pretty much takes care of all parasites except flukes (can work on flukes if dosed at double strengh but this dosage will also kill your beneficial bacteria), fish lice, anchor worms and internal parasites.

Since the smallest amount you can buy is a quart I contacted the manufacturer about making it available in smaller amounts and will keep you updated as too the response.

For any of you that are using this product make sure you dechlorinate with Amquel and Not Prime. Just passing that little tidbit of information along straight from the manufacturer. It also seems too only be available in the US and Canada and has a very long shelf life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Proform C should not be used with any dechlorinator that is sulfoxylate or sulfonate based (Amquel IS sulfonate based).

I believe Rid Ich+ is the about, if not exactly, the same concentration of both meds as what is in Proform C, so if you're facing a parasite problem other than flukes, anchor worm or lice and don't want to spend the money to buy a quart of Proform C, or enough formalin and MG to dose yourself, try Rid Ich+.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Happy,

I posed that exact question too the manufacturer and they said that Amquel is fine while Prime is not. Those are not my words, they are the words of the manufacturer. Pro form C is also a better alternative too use than regular formalin/malachite green products because it is formulated with malachite green chloride which is safer for fish and filter. I already know that you know those facts and that you have mentioned this drug in the past. Unfortunately numerous people on this board will have no way too get it just like other drugs like prazi and dimilin.

Original post:

I also heard back from the manufacturer regarding smaller size bottles of this med and while there are no plans too do it as of now they are thinking of selling it in 8 and 16 oz. bottles. Maybe with a few more emails from us goldfish people we can convince them too do it. Their reason for not selling it in smaller bottles is because the med is very cheap right now with a quart costing around $20-$25. However for people with tanks a quart will last you your lifetime and probably your grandchildren also.

I started this post too let people know that there are much better alternative meds out there that are completely safe and reliable. There is really not too much mention of Pro form C here and I think everyone that is treating their fish for parasites should look into it if they are able too obtain it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I posed that exact question too the manufacturer and they said that Amquel is fine while Prime is not.

Maybe the person responding to your emails got mixed up? Amquel is 100% sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate and shouldn't be used with any formalin/formaldehyde product.

It is true that many F/MG combo meds contain a different form of MG (MG oxalate), but Rid Ich + contains chloride salt of MG - same as Proform C.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the info about rid ich +. I had no idea.

While proform c states not too use with sulf"I"nates is there a difference between them and sodium hydroxymethanesulf"O"nate which like you mentioned is the active ingredient in amquel. I am not a chemist and anyone that can answer that please do so. With all that being said what type of dechlor would you use with this type of med?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not a chemist, either, but I do know that sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate (Amquel) will at the very least deactivate the malachite green (if not cause damage with a higher-than-intended dose of aldehydes) so at least for that reason it shouldn't be used with Proform C. Maybe I can get someone better in chemistry than I to clarify the sulfonate/sulfinate issue for the sake of curiousity, though.. I'll let you know.

I use only sodium thiosulfate based dechlor while medicating with formalin/mg meds (and on a regular maintenance basis as well).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks again Happy,

I still wonder why they told me amquel since when I posed my question too them I specifically asked about amquel, prime, and ST. They told me too use the amquel, not the prime and gave no mention of the ST. Hmmm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the info I got back from them stating why amquel is safe too use. I hope this woRobert:

AmQuel (Kordon), Liquid Buffered ClorAm-X (Hikari) are both fine for dechlorination in new water that is going into a system that is being treated with Proform C. Treat the new water before putting it in the system if at possible, but the fact that it being used as a chlorinator eliminates most of the objection of having it in the same water as malachite green (the dechlorination reaction utilizes the sulfonate part of the molecule). The better product to use is ULTIMATE, this contains the ClorAm-X, but is a complete water conditioner and is better than the other two in that regard. ULTIMATE is available under the AquaScience label and soon, under the Hikari label. It is generally available.

BTW, neither AmQuel nopr ClorAm-X contain "sulfinate". The sulfinate products are those highly odorous products that are poor immitations of ClorAm-X-containing products.

==JFK==

rks.l

Very Interesting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest starsmom

Jetman:

Just wondering what you think of Jungle Labs Parasite Clear. I have used it successfully, as has at least one other person on the board. I think it's fairly new. It did not overly stress my fish, or crash my cycle, but got rid of my "mystery critters" which I suspect were immature anchor worms.

Ingredients are: praziquantel, N-[((4-Chlorophenyl)amino]carbon1]-2, 6-diflurobenzamide; metornidazole; acriflavine.

It supposedly treats both internal and external parasites, including protozoans, flukes, internal worms, lice, anchor worms and flagellates. Safe for plants and won't harm bio filter.

Only thing I noticed is that I had to increase my aeration when using the med.

What do you think of this stuff? I am able to use my tap water for my tanks, so I don't need to worry about water conditioners, and don't know what the effect would be on the med. You seem to know so much, so I figured I'd ask, maybe this would work for others too. It's available at mmm, and comes in 10-gallon doses.

Laura

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Star,

Too answer your question: I just don't know. I have never used this med before.

Being skeptical as I always am it almost sounds too good to be true. It sounds like they are marketing it as the ultimate shotgun therapy. I just happened too look at an old bottle of jungle fungus eliminator and it says it cures dropsy. I'll just leave it at that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Starsmom,

After doing a little more research on the different ingredients in this med they all seem too cover what the manufacturer states. The praziquantel takes care of the flukes and internal worms. The diflurobenzamide would take care of the anchor worms and lice. The metronidazole will get the hexamita and the acriflavine will work on the ciliated protozoans and fungus.

My main concern would be at what levels are these being used at. Just because it includes these meds does not mean they are used at the proper levels. Does it say what levels of these drugs are used on the label because their website gives no information? It also sounds like a pretty potent concoction since it seems too cover almost everything but bacterial problems. Anyone that has used this med in the past or knows more about it I would love too hear from, be it good or bad.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am going too bump this up after reading the info posted on the pondrx site about proform c. It is the total opposite of the information I got from the manufacturer. Any thoughts anyone?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used fungus eliminator for Dropsy about a year ago. The fish was all bloated, and pine coning....I added the meds, and the fish went back to normal......it did die a month later though, so maybe the meds just prolonged it's death. But it did make the bloating go down, and the fish started swimming and eating again.

Is dropsy not a secondary condition though? Maybe the eliminator just killed whatever else was "hiding" behind the dropsy?

I know why the fish got dropsy too, drastic drop in temp. Yikes.

I've learned so much here in the last year.

So if FE doesn't work for dropsy (darn them for lying on the bottle) can you explain why my fish appeared better for a short time? I find this all interesting, and I don't really know a whole lot about dropsy. At the lfs where I bought the meds for dropsy, they told me I couldn't cure it, so at least they didn't lie just to sell the meds (I bought them anyway) :P

Jessica

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest starsmom

Jetman:

It does not list the concentration of any0 of the meds on the package. It does include different treatment instructions depending on the parasite you are treating. For everything except fish lice and anchor worm, you treat up to three times with 48 hours between treatments and a 25% water change in between. For fish lice and anchor worms you can treat up to four times, once a week, with a 25% water change in between.

The first time I treated my fish, they started flashing like crazy when the med dissolved in the water. I treated a second time a week later, and they didn't react to the medication at all. My fish weren't showing any outward signs of stress due to parasites, just found a few small white string type things on one fish, and the treatment didn't seem to affect them badly outside of about 5 minutes of flashing from the first dose of meds. The tank didn't crash, and not even the algae died, but within 3 days of the first treatment, the white things on my fish disappeared and haven't come back. After the first treatment, the fish without the parasites started having white stringy poop, so I fed medigold for a week, which seemed to take care of that. But I'm not sure if the fish had a bacterial infection, or was passing some internal parasites that got knocked out by the meds.

Hope this helps anyone else who needs to treat for parasites, it seemed to work without stressing the fish out too much. I don't know how it would work for a heavy infestation or with fish that were already showing signs of stress.

Laura

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Laura,

Thank you for providing that info. It definately helped me and I am sure numerous other people. Anyone else out there have any experience with this med?

Jessica,

Dropsy is so hard too explain since there are numerous reasons for it happening. In your case I would say the damage too their internal organs was already done. This is normal when we see full blown dropsy. The med probably helped the fish eliminate excess fluid so for a short time it looked better. So while it seemed better the damage was already done internally and that is why the fish died. Normally with full blown dropsy the prognosis is not good. That is why I mentioned the jungle labs claim on their package that it cures dropsy. It says that it cures dropsy and we all know that is not true. Maybe they are making the same claim with their parasite elimanator and that is why I want too hear from other persons responses about using this med.

Edited by jetman73

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jetman, Thanks a bunch for the explanation. I always wondered why she looked better, and then died anyway. I figured the damage had already been done, but I was pretty new. So I never did know for sure.

This fish lived in a bowl for awhile before I found out she needed 10 gals. I put her in the 10 gal, then I learned about the cycle....and well lets just say her immune system had probably been compromised due to iggnorance... I had no clue that they even made medicine for fish....yikes

She was a veil tail too, I have never found another one.

I am interesed in this Pro Form C discussion, glad to see it's pinned.

Jessica

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kordon (Amquel's manufacturer) discourages using Amquel when treating with chemical dyes (which MG is) and says it will interfere with the meds.

Doc J specifically cautions that Amquel should not be used with Proform C - there are quotes from him available elsewhere on the net stating this.

According to a well-respected chemist in the ponding hobby (I didn't ask permission to credit him with this statement publicly), Amquel becomes sulfinite when it reacts with ammonia, and neither it nor Chloram-x should be used with Proform C.

I have no idea how the person who responded to your email got it so wrong. His statements go against everything I've read and are contradictory to the recommendations of the most knowledgeable fishkeepers I know, not to mention that they're a blatant disregard of the company's own warning label, which, according to Doc J and the aforementioned chemist, is meant to be a caution against using Proform C with Amquel without naming brands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Happy,

Thank you so much for the response. I was pretty sure that is where you were going too go and I agree with you 100% after further research. I always look forward too your insight in a situation like this and I am sure the rest of the board does also.

The reason why I posted that email is since it came straight from the manufacturer. Once I posed that question too them THEY did further research and that is the response I got. I did not edit anything and posted exactly what I received.

I look forward too seeing them in person at the afkaps and you can be sure I will bring it up.

Now the scary question is: When you can not trust what the manufacturer states, who can you trust. You think they would know what would be compatible.

Maybe if you have time you could ask them the same question and see what response you get. For now I am done with them even though the make a terrific product. I think after all of my emails they will consider me a nuisance but people need too know the truth.

And for further info: I have been treating all of my incoming koi with this product without any problems. I still consider it a fantastic product that should be part of anyones QT that does not have use of a microscope or are unsure how too read what they actually get in their scrapes.

Was it Roddy?

Edited by jetman73

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When you can not trust what the manufacturer states, who can you trust.

The manufacturer must know something of the subject, since there is a caution on their label, but the guys who answer the emails obviously aren't all that educated on the matter. It is concerning, though, that you could get such erroneous information from them - after "further research" no less. Whether it be from the president of the company or some lackey hired to only answer emails, most people would not question a response from a representative of the manufacturer.

I agree, Proform C is an effective and relatively safe product, and it's a good precautionary treatment in quarantine when an informed biopsy is not possible.

Was it Roddy?

My description didn't leave much question as to whom I was referring, did it? ;) Yes, it was Roddy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The good old Doc RC. No further questions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a testiment to the general recognition of his intelligence and contribution to the hobby that I could mention a chemist in the ponding hobby and you'd instantly know of whom I was speaking. :) If there's one person I trust when it comes to the chemical aspect of fishkeeping, it's Roddy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This has been a fascinating thread to read through - I'm really glad and impressed that you guys put so much hard work into researching it. Thanks for sharing. :)

As for manufacturers, of course you can't trust them! - their primary objective is to SELL THE PRODUCT, and that means the information they give to you as customers is highly selective. What do you think the manufacturers of goldfish bowls would say if you wrote to ask if bowls are a suitable environment to keep goldfish in? They would tell you yes, they're ideal; how could they admit their product is unsuitable? It's like when pet store people reassure you that your new fish will be fine in a bowl or 1 gallon tank because they 'only grow to fit whatever size container they're in.' Yes, indeed they do, but what the pet shop people don't go on to say is that this is because the fish is cramped and can't grow properly and therefore its lifespan will be severely shortened! Yet we know this is the case. QED.

If you want info. on how effective a product is it's far better to ask someone who actually uses the product or knows its components very well, rather than someone who has a vested interest in it..... a vet, a chemist, a fishkeeper with years of experience, a professional fish breeder, a biologist etc. As indeed you did. :)

By the way, who IS Roddy? I haven't heard of him... :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Roddy is a research chemist involved in the ponding hobby. He hasn't written any books or produced any videos, but he is a great contributor.

I am hesitant to assume the manufacturer of Proform C was diliberately misleading anyone about how to use their product, especially since the information on the product's own label goes against the reply they sent to Rob. I would like to believe the guy answering emails was just unknowledgable and confused/misinformed. It would be very unwise of them to intentionally give people the wrong information on this subject, especially Proform C is typically used on pond fish, which can be quite pricey. They could end up paying quite a hefty settlement if people's koi started dropping after following the manufacturer's own suggestions for product use. Many manufacturers knowingly make false claims about what their products can and cannot do, which is deplorable in its own right, but they usually pretty well cover their butts about safety issues with a product, assumingly because that's where the lawsuits would come in otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there anywhere on the net I can read some of Roddy's work? That would be really interesting. I suspect some if not most of it will go over my head, not being much good at chemistry, but I'd like to have a look anyway! :)

I agree the Proform C guys were probably just uninformed / misguided. But I've come to the sad realisation that many manufacturers can and do deliberately mislead customers about their products, which is just terrible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Emma,

Sorry I missed this thread lately but Proform C is a great product, however I received bad information on what type of dechlorinator is suitable for its use. Hopefully this thread cleared that up.

About Roddy: He is a regular poster on koivet and ocassionally I see him on koibito but I don't think he has a dedicated site regarding his work. He gets extremely technical buts lays it out there so that everyone will understand what he is saying. He mostly writes abouts pond environments and although I do not agree with a lot of his pond practices if you want too learn about how chemicals interact there is no one better. He is basically a book of knowledge when it comes too chemical interactions and always seems too help anyone that needs it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...