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Guest fredfish

Swollen Eyes With Dots In Middle

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Guest fredfish

Ammonia Level : 0

Nitrite Level: 0

Nitrate level: 200 ppm

Ph Level: 8.4

Tank size(How many Gals): 12 gallons, up about 2 months

What kind of Filtration: eclipse system 12, mechanical, carbon filter, biowheel

How often do you change the water and how much: 20% once or twice a month

What kind of Water additives or conditioners: aquasafe to replacement water

Any Medications add to the tank? No

How many fish in the tank and there size: 1 common goldfish, ~ 3"; 1 comet, ~ 3.5" (not including tail)

Add any new fish to the tank? No

What do you feed your fish? Wardleys total goldfish, occasional tubifex worms. Used to feed vibragrow medium pelletsuntil I ran out 2 weeks ago

Any unusual findings on the fish? Such as

"grains of salt", bloody streaks, frayed fins, fungus? NO

Any unusual behavior? No, swims well and eats

Stan, my 2 year old common goldfish started to develop white bumps in the middle of each eye about 2 months ago. They seemd to appear overnight. This happened when I changed the bulb in the lamp by the tank from regular tungsten lamp to halogen. After 2 days I stoped using that lamp, and since have only used ambient light for tank.

About 1 month ago the white bumps seemed to get bigger and he became increasingly lethargic. He did not seem to be able to compete for food with the bigger, faster comet. At the advice of a local pet store owner, I removed the common from the tank and gave him 5 days of maracyn 2 treatment. The poor guy received his treatment in a 3 gallon bucket, because I do not have a hospital tank.

The treatment did not have any appreciable affect on his eyes, but he swam and ate better once I re-introduced him back into the tank.

Now over the last 2 weeks his eyes have begun to swell up. The white bumps have turned a brown color. I think I saw blood in one of his eyes a week ago. Now his left eye is so swollen I am afraid that it will burst.

What could this illness be, and how should I treat it?

Could water conditions be part of the problem? I was not good about taking regular measurements, today I obtained the above with some test strips I just bought. The nitrates and PH seem too high. I will do a partial water change tonight to hopefully reduce some of the nitrate. I live in Los Angeles and the tap water here is rather hard and basic I guess.

Thanks for your help!

I couldn't get this image link to work, but you can open the URL to see a picture of Stan.

<IMG src="http://pix-1.picturepusher.com/picture/512/uw1jzv.jpg"/>

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Hello and :welcome

Firstly, let me say, your nitrAtes are waaaaay too high for ANY treatment to be successful. Start out with doing a 50% waterchange immediately (with temperature matched dechlored water. If your tapwater is hard, then you probably have a good KH. For a free acount of your tapwaters ingrdients, call your local water supply or look online.

Ok, with that out of the way, get those nitrAte down to 40ppm or below. Go and purchase maracyn 1 (erythromycin) and treat him in a separate container, 5 gallon bucket with aerator and close monitoring of the ammonia levels is fine. I also suggest you feed a medicated food such as Medi-gold.

I'll be honest with you here, If its as bad as you describe, this does not look good. Further problems might manifest. Blood pooling in the eye possibly indicates a detach lens. I suppose we will see. But, Could you work on getting us the link to the pictures?

Post back soon. :unsure:

Paul

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Guest fredfish

Hi toothless,

Thanks for the thoughtful reponse. This site is a great resource, I only wish I had discovered it sooner.

Later last night I replaced about 1.5 gallons of evaporated water with distilled water. I used to replace evaporate with conditioned tapwater, but it occurred to me that this might add to many minerals to the aquarium. In any case, here are the readings taken this morning:

PH: 8.0

Alk: 240 ppm (was 300 last night)

Total Hardness: 250 ppm (same)

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 80 ppm (was 200 last night)

The nitrate reading is probably not very accurate because the color strip jumps from 80 to 200. In any case it it still too high.

I am going to the pet store now to buy maracyn 1 and medi-gold. I might pick up a 5 gallon tank and filter while I am there.

I have 2 gallons of conditioned tap water that I aerated over night standing by. I plan on filling the hosipital tank with 2 gallons from the main tank and the 2 gallons of tap water. Then I will replace the main tank water.

Here is a link to pictures I took of Stan today:

http://pix-1.picturepusher.com/user/hn2pal/public/906/1173

I also skipped the morning feeding today to help get the nitrates under control.

I forgot to mention that when I treated Stan about a month ago, he was also opening and closing his mouth frequently. I interpreted this as having difficulty breathing. He didn't do it at the surface though, he stayed near the bottom. He stopped opening his mouth this way after the treatment, but he still spends much of his time between meals floating near the bottom of the tank.

Thanks for your help so far and I will keep you posted.

- fredfish

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Hes definitely got what we call "pop-eye" This is somehwat a rarity with commons and comets but he looks to of a higher breeding status than most standard pondcomets. This usually translates into weaker genetics pertaining to health. Tis ok though, I think we might just be able to help him.

You wont be able to find medi-gold at the store. You can purchase it online, here: Medi-gold at goldfish connection.com Tis a VERY good medicated feed.

Maracyn 1 is perhaps the first drug ANY fishkeeper should try when treating pop-eye. Medi-gold is just plain excellent for MANY things including pop-eye.

You might not be far off from your idea of using distilled water to lessen the amount of carbonate hardness your tapwater contains. But in truth, goldfish can live very easily in waterr with a pH of 8. Especially if it remains steady. I would quit using the distilled for now. Just treat your tapwater with dechlorinator and it should be fine to use. Again, stability, more than the actual pH, is the important factor.

You can do as large a waterchange as you like. Once the nitrAtes are within an acceptable level, you can reduce the frequency of changes.

Good luck and post back soon. :)

Paul

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Guest fredfish

Hi toothless,

Stan is such a trooper, he keeps going no matter how many times he gets sick. He used to have trouble with buoyancy, he would float near the surface for hours at a time without being ablle to get to the bottom. Didn't seem to bother him, he found out a way to wedge his dorsal fin against the under-side of the water filter to keep himself stable, and he would just hang out there until he could sink again.

Stan was just transferred to the hospital tank. I administered the first dose of Maracyn 1. I used the powder form, which was a little messy. As you expected, vvvv and 2 other local pet stores do not carry Medigold. I just ordered some online. In the mean time, I got "Jungle" brand "Anti-Parasite Medicated Fish Food" and "Anti-Bacteria Medicated Fish Food". Is it worthwhile to use either of these, or should I feed Stan flakes until the Medigold arrives ( could be several days I imagine).

Here are the stats on the hospital tank:

5 gallons with mechanical, carbon, and biowheel filter and aeration

2 gallons water from main tank

2 gallons conditioned tap water

1 gallon distilled water (don't ask, I paniced)

sprinkling of gravel from main tank

1 teaspon aquarium salt

1/2 teaspoon stress zyme

PH: 8.0

Alk: 120 ppm

Total Hardness: 120 ppm

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 40 ppm ( acceptable?)

Keeping my fingers crossed,

Fredfish

:ill

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Remove the carbon from the filters when using ANY medication. If this 5 gallon tank is fully cycled, thats good. If not, remove the gravel from the tank and do not allow the filter to try and cycle. To do this, daily 100% waterchanges are needed as well as scrubbing the filter and tank clean in between.

If the medicated food you have states no antibiotics being used. I guess its of to use til the medi-gold gets there. Once the medigold is there, feed exclusively and as much as he will eat.

40ppm nitrAtes is indeed acceptable. Strive to keep them this low from now on. :)

Good luck wioth this little guy. Your right, he sound slike quite the trooper. Much like my own comet that was on the verge of death several years ago. He is still alive and well to this day. Thanks to the great folks here at kokos, that is. You can see him in my signature or my photo album. Anyway, after I was so graciously helped back then, I have learned quite a bit and am paying it forward, ten fold. Who knows, maybe someday soon, you will have the chance to do this as well. ;)

Good luck and keep us updated!

Paul

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Guest fredfish

OK, I removed the carbon from the filter. I removed the biowheel too. I suppose the stress zyme was a mistake? Will change the water every day, but is 100% too much?

I looked at the ingredients from the Jungle brand anti-parasite food, the active ingredients are:

metronidazole

praziquantel

levamisole

I found info on these chemicals here:

http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/metronidaz.htm

http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic2/praziquantel.htm

http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic3/levamisole.htm

I don't understand most of it, but the first page says "Metronidazole is an oral synthetic antiprotozoal and antibacterial agent" - since it says antibacterial I guess I won't use it.

I will just feed him the wardley flakes for now. Wish I had more vibragrow.

Your fish is quite impressive! I am glad to hear that he is healthy now.

By the way, my Stan is a common goldfish, right? I got him from my friend's roommate a couple years ago, so I don't know his lineage. Resued him from a fishbowl.

Murphy, the purplish white fish in the background, is a comet. He was smaller than stan when I introduced him to the tank, but outgrew him quickly.

:unsure:

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Good antiparasitic food there.

Metronidazol kills hexamita and spironucleus. Somewhat common fish pathogens in the aquatic industry. Metrodidazol also helps stave off some internal bacterial infections too.

Praziquantel kills flatworms. Flukes, tapeworms and the like.

Levamisol kills nematodes and some flatworms such as flukes and the like.

All in all, after feeding this stuff for a bit, your fish shouldn't have any chances of having internal parasites at all. This will be a good addition to your feeding regime during treatment.

I think it would be fine to go ahead and feed to parasitic food to them untill the medi-gold arrives. Once it does, feed mainly the medigold but also add the parasitic food to his diet as well.

Remember, keep an eye on the water params throughout all of this. Daily testing.....

Your doing great. I hope the pop-eye can be brought undr control soon. The erythromycin in the maracyn 1 is a very good med. It has saved many a pop-eyed (and dropsied) fish in the past.

Ype, stan surely is a common. But, hes seems to be almost, or is, solid matte, from the pics. A matte coloration is generally a prefferable trait in common goldfish. Not too "common" a trait either. Thats why I suggested that he might have been of higher breed than regualr commons. ;)

Paul

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Guest fredfish

OK, busy day.. it is Stan's second day in the hospital tank. Before I changed his water I took these readings:

Ammonia: 0.25

PH: 7.6

Alk: 120

Total Hard: 120

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 40

A little bit of ammonia showing up, hopefully the 30% water change took care of that.. will do another reading in a few hours.

I started feeding both fish the Jungle anti-parasite food.

Also, I have some Coppersafe, would you recommend I treat Stan with that in addition to the Maracyn?

Stan's eyes look the same. The funny thing is he acts like there is no problem, he scavenges the bottom of the hospital tank for food, and swims around alertly with his dorsal fin extended. Nobody told him he is sick.

Thanks for the help and moral support. By the way, my new 40 gallon tank arrived today. I am still waiting for the filter and air pump which should arrive early next week. Am I right in thinking that the most effective way to get the nitrates under control in the long term is to give the fish more water?

- Fredfish

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Nope, no coppersafe, EVER. That stuff is best left for use in saltwater tanks. It is VERY bad to use when there is a low KH. Too dangerous if you ask me. Besides, there are waaaay too many medications that are better.

You are absolutely correct. The key to reducing the amount of energy put into keeping nitrAtes low, is a larger body of water. Well, there are about a million reasons why more is better. But, since water quality is the single most important factor affecting health, and a larger body of water with ample filtration makes for cleaner water, then I am always for more water.

I tell ya, once hes in the bigger tank, they'll be lovin' it. :lol:

As for the eyes not getting better yet, if by the end of 3 days after starting the meds, you see no improvement whatsoever, we need to switch waterborne meds.

Do you have a regular vet for your other animals? If so, it might be a really good idea to ask them if you can aquire a syringe of baytril from them. It might cost a bit but it will certainly be THE best way to treat. If not, then I suggest you switch to furan two, or maracyn plus.

Paul

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Guest fredfish

Woke up this morning to find cloudy water in the hospital tank. I guess I wasn't changing enough of the water. Did a 40% water change. It looks better. Should have taken measurements before the change but I paniced. I am not really set up to change more than 2 gallons at a time, guess I am going to need a bigger bucket.

I do not have other pets or a vet.

Come 4 PM this will make it 72 hours in the hospital tank. So far his eyes look the same.

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If his tank is unfiltered or not utilizing ammo-chips, you need to be doing 100% waterchanges every day. this is the only way to be sure that your water is, and remains, good enough to allow healing to begin or progress. Water quality is the first thing to watch, the second is the medication. In order of importance. ;)

Okay, well, it seems as though the maracyns are not working. If by tomorrow morning, you see no improvement on the eyes, I would suggest doing a 100% waterchange without medication added. Wait 24 hours and then start him on Furan Two. You should be able to find it locally. If you cannot find it, then I suggest maracyn plus.

Because you have no vet and no access to a lab, the treatment of this bacterial infection is trial and error. In the process, medications will be tried and shot down. But, if this is something that CAN be healed, we should be able to find the medication that does it.

You know, this fish might very well have some sort of retinal cancer. I have read a lot about eyes swelling and it widing up being tumorous growth in the eyes. If this is what your fish has, you might be looking at removal of the eye/s to save the fish's life later on. Maybe not though. I just wanted to prepare you just in case. :unsure:

Paul

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Guest fredfish

I stopped adding Maracyn today. Stan's eyes look the same. If anything, the cloudiness is increasing.

The Medigold arrived, so both fish just had it for their evening meal. The pellets are bigger than what I normally feed them, but they are doing OK sucking them down.

I guess I will look for Furan Two tomorrow. How do you know that it is a bacterial infection?

- fredfish

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Maracyn can make cloudiness occur, I believe. Read on the box.

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Well, there are several reasons, that I can think of, for exopthalmia (pop-eye) in fish:

Internal bacterial infection (usually aeromonas infecting the kidneys)

Mechanical damage (usually followed by bacterial infection)

Poor nutrition (usually followed by bacterial infection)

Tumors

A rare parasite called Diplostomum spathacaeum (eye fluke)

Thats basically it. Bacteria are the first thing to treat for once water quality is assured. Water params MUST be perfect for ANY treatment to be successful.

I am trying to convince myself, and you, that this is a treatable ailment. We'll need to keep trying waterborne meds til something gives. If nothing works, this might very well be a tumorous growth you are seeing.

Could you snap a bunch of pics (including macro shots, up close) of his eyes and pic through the shots for the clearest ones? Try not to reduce the filesize either. The clearer, the better. I think that if we can get a good look at the eyes, we might be able to determine a bit more about it. You can e-mail the pics to me at p_vaughn@comcast.net. I will download and study the shots in full detail......

Paul

Paul

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Guest fredfish

OK, latest pictures of Stan's eyes are at:

http://pix-1.picturepusher.com/user/hn2pal/public/906/1177

You can click on a photo to zoom in. The first 2 photos are maybe the clearest.

These water readings were taken at 7:25 PM today:

Ammonia: 0.25

PH: 7.6

Alk: 180

Total HArd: 120

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 20

Have had the same exact readings for the last 3 days, except that PH varies between 7.6 and 8 and Alk varies between 120 and 180

Thanks again for all your help.

-fredfish

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This doesn't look like the pop-eye I've seen (my fish have had it before) -- but rather like his eye was sucked on by another fish? Do both of his eyes look like this, or is it only one?

Then again, I've taken a look at the pictures closer and maybe it is pop-eye. Does it look like this up close: http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/2002/popeye.jpeg ?

Edited by SaneRedFox

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Sane red fox is right, this doesnt look too much like the cases of pop-eye we normally see. But, because both eyes are affected, this excludes mechanical damage. It doesn't resemble cancerous tumors either. So, we are left with a bacterial/fungal problem probably brought on by long periods in less than optimal water quality. this ailment is usually reversable. We might be able to save his eyes yet.

Because the lens in both eyes is cloudy, either the lens is dead, or it is just infected and still trying to purge the bacters responsible. With ammonia being tested positive for, even in small amounts, any treatment could very well be rendered useless. sooooo.......... I suggest that you not try, or not allow, the filter and tank cycle while he is being treated. Clean the filter out under hot tapwater every day. At the same time, replace 100% of the water and add a new, full dose of whatever waterborne medication you are using. Ammo-chips in a stocking toe placed in the filterbox so that the water has to run through it, will keep ammonia at bay in between waterchanges.

Keep us updated.... :)

Paul

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Guest fredfish

With regard to the eyesucking theory, I would not put it past the larger fish, "Murphy", to attack Stan's eyes. About a year ago I thought Stan had fin rot, only to discover that Murphy was nipping at his fins.

Murphy gave up the fin munching, but now pushes stan around during feeding time. I actually thought I saw him go at Stan's eyes once, but I can't be sure.

I posed this theory to a local pet shop owner about a month ago when the white spots appeared (before most of the swelling occured), and he dismissed it because both eyes have the problem. But couldn't murphy have sucked on both eyes? I mean, do eye-suckers really prefer one eye over the other?

Also, how do you do a 100% water change? I have been doing 40% changes, but how does a 100% change work logistically? Do I need 2 tanks?

Thanks for the tips guys.

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I am seriously in doubt that the pleco is the culprit here. For one, the eyes are damaged internally, not the surface. Secondly, the nitrAtes being so high, and presumably for a long period of time, are surely the cause of the whitening of the lenses. Thirdly, as your pet shop owner said, both eyes are affected.

But, this does not mean that the pleco doesnt have the propensity to do something like this. Generally, its not a very good idea to mix common plecos and fancy goldfish. But, since your goldfish are of the common/comet variety, all should be OK. Fancies have much harder time in escaping and/or defending themselves. Not so with commons and comets, being as fast as they are.

To perform a 100% waterchange, just remove the fish to a small container just large enough for them both to turn around in. Cover it well, even if for only a few minutes. Then proceed to change out ALL of the water in the tank. once the tank is empty, take it and the filter to the bathtub and rinse the heck out of them under really hot water. Once cleaned, take them and set them back up. What your doig is removing the bio-film that covers everything and dessimating ANY beneficial bacteria that may be forming. The key here is that you want to keep the tank and filter UN-cycled so that ammonia and nitrItes do not EVER form during treatment. If they do, as I mentioned before, it can render most treatments useless.

Keep that water happy and one of these treatments is bound to work eventually. I am wondering if the erythromycin treatment was hindered by the water quality......

Paul

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