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d_golem

Inheriting Desireable Features

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The prospect of breeding goldfish is very appealing to me, and although I'm fairly new to this whole goldfish business, I'm prepared to do my best in raising my current GFs (all about 4cm long) and making them breed.

There're a few questions I would like to ask if u guys dont mind answering :D will be very appreciated:

1. If 2 fish of the same breed mate (e.g. fantail with another fantail), how many % of the frys will be the same breed like their parents?

2. Can a fry with totally different characteristics as their parents be produced (e.g. telescope-eye fry from oranda & pearlscale parents) and if it's possible, how many % of the frys will become that?

3. Can 2 fancies parents produce a comet, or even more, a common? If so, how many % will usually become that?

4. Can a batch of frys feature several different breeds (e.g. ranchu, oranda, fantail, telescope etc in one batch)?

5. What breed (fancies only) is easiest to produce true-to-type and what is the hardest?

I suspect most of the answers to the questions will be a bit vague, especially the % questions, so maybe give an average percentage it's best ;) thanks a bunch guys

cheers

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Those are some great questions. I will be watching this post to see what people have to say. If you dont mind, I would like to add one of my questions that I have been curious about. I also wondered if you can breed inbreed goldfish. Say the male and female produce a really good offspring, can you them breed it with other offspring or the parents? Weird, but I thought Id ask.

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Guest Chishower

I know that commons are found a lot in batches of fancy fry when the genetics revert back to normal. For anything, the % will vary...

Thats the extent of my knowledge. :rofl I am also curious to know the answeres.

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Pls add any questions about the topic, I think we all wanna have good base on what to expect when our precious GFs suddenly decided it's time to "boogie" :rofl

cheers

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those are a lot of questions....let me see what I can try to answer.... :rofl

#1- I would think that the majority of the fry would be the breed of the parents. You will have some fry that are deformed or under developed.

#2-I dont think that you can get a totally different breed as your example stated, but you can get a number of fry that are a cross breed of the two parents.

#3- I think that they can have a common fry cause sometimes in breed they do revert back to simpler breeds

#4- I think that depends on who the parents are...if you have a tank of different goldies, then yeah.

#5- I really dont knwo that one...I'm raisin my first and third spawns of my goldies...and from what I see, the mojirty of the first batch look like they will be like their father, a comet and only like 5-10% will be either fantails or orandas

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Thx for the reply Tazz :lol: greatly appreciated. Just wanna to bring up gia-ekhdal's question :

If you dont mind, I would like to add one of my questions that I have been curious about. I also wondered if you can breed inbreed goldfish. Say the male and female produce a really good offspring, can you them breed it with other offspring or the parents? Weird, but I thought Id ask.

I'm also curious about this one :rolleyes:

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you are welcome d_golem...from what I have read, it is not unusual to have fish inbreed. It was called making a True-bloodlines. Kinda like how they did in medieval times/fuedalism

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Well i've read that in-breeding between humans will result in erratic temper & mental problems for the children :rolleyes: will it happen in GFs? :lol: feels like a stupid question

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Guest mellowr

inbreeding makes 4 good looks but i think it makes em stupid, cuz they dun get any better genes only recessive or somethin like that. hey i think thats wut my teacher says

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Goldfish have one of the more difficult genetic codes to work with. They have far more characterisitics than many creatures, and most (almost all) of these traits are individually expressed - there are very few of them that are dependant or connected to others. Add to this yet another complication - very few traits are expressed in the simple dominant/recessive relationships - they are full of modifyers and partial expressions.

For example: In cats, The orange coloration is connected to the sex allelles. A cat needs only one dominant orange allele to be orange. A male only carries one, for the Y chromosome carries no color allele. One X chromosome with an Orange makes an orange cat. But a female cat carries 2 X Chromosomes - both can carry the orange, one can or neither can. This allows for the partial dominance of color - producing a tortoishell (black and orange) cat that is always female. (Very simplified and there are exceptions)

Fish do not have these connected traits. You cannot select a pair of fish demonstrating certain characteristics and expect offspring to reflect a combination of the reflected traits. The successes in honing a line of goldfish to be a well bred, repeatable representation of a breed or characteristic comes from consistant and lengthy breeding through numerous generations. If only the best black fish are bred with only the best black fish, the majority of the offspring will be good black. If a good black is bred into the line of fish, but he has oranges and other lines of fish 3 generations back(or 5 or whatever) in his line, the number of offspring demonstrating the good black will drop substantially in numbers. Crossing in an orange into a black line will cause the black to disappear or be lost in all subsequent lines.

Success in goldfish breeds has been and will be attained in long, consistant and careful breeding and culling. THis is how it has been done for hundreds and hundreds of years. You will not be able to take two fish that have dramatically different traits, cross them and see any offspring that demonstrate the best of both parents as you could in cavies, cats, dogs and some other simpler creatures. There are too many individual traits that depend on no other - and can be expressed or not, depending on the "whim of nature".

Line breeding is a carefully constructed inbreeding method that is commonly used when dealing with a very small genetic population. If you only had a small number of creatures, you breed them. The offspring are bred back to the parents. This is done for several generations, maintaining at least two separate "lines" of genetics. After several generations, the best representatives of what you are striving for are "out crossed" to the other line. This will start a new "line" of genetics to work with. Careful line breeding does not result in a weakening of the overall health of the offspring as "inbreeding" would.

#1 If you cross two fantail goldfish with each other, the offspring will be representatives of fantail goldfish. This is not to say they will necessarily be "good" representatives or not. A lot depends on the generational purity of the fantail genes the parents have. If you have two parents that have been nothing but excellent fantails for 10 generations+, you will have fry that represent fantails.

#2.You can and will have fry that demonstrate many characterisitics that are not seen in the parents. The less pure the line of fish that the parents came from, the more possibilities of unknown traits being introduced into the fry. These traits may or may not be visually expressed in the parents, but can be in fry.

#3. Two fancies, if carrying sufficiant genetic coding for comets, can produce some fry that have more traits for a comet than a fancy. The fry may appear to be a comet. It would not be, for it would be carring numerous other genetic codes for many other traits not expressed visually. If bred, it would not breed as a comet.Goldfish do not "revert" back to the common- they can only express and pass on the genetic codes they possess. The more common type, in many instances, is dominant over other types, and tends to be expressed more often than a more complicated and "fancy" trait. So it may seem that you would get a reversion to the common in fish that carry numbers of hidden common traits.

#4 If the fish you are breeding carry the genes for numerous "breeds" it is entirely possible that you may see fry from a single spawning that carry identifying traits of different breeds. One fish may have telescope eyes. One may lack a dorsal fin. One may be long bodied, one barrel bodied. One may have telescope eyes and no dorsal fin. You can call all these fry by the breed name that they most closely resemble, but they cannot be considered to truly be that breed, for they will almost guaranteededly not be good representatives of the breed and will not breed true.

#5 AS far as what breed would be the easiest to breed true, the answer is the simpler the fish, the more chance that you will have that it will carry the genes that will be carried accurately to its offspring. Fancies have been being manipulated and crossed and designed for hundreds of years. The variations within the subgroups of the various species are myriad and amazing. The comet or common, single tailed varieties most likely will hold the best promise that the fry will be consistant representations of the parents.

In every spawning it is said that out of 1000 fry, you will get 100 that are well built, having no outward signs of dramatic flaws or genetic problems. The other 900 will have kinked backs, lack of fins, incorrectly designed gills, internal problems, 3 eyes (these are weird!), and a whole host of other problems. 900 are culled. 100 are grown out to about 3-6 months of age.

At 6 months of age or so it is said that of that 100, there will be about 1 that is worth selecting for a breeding program and/or showing. The other 99 are culled and sold to pet shops,etc.

This is said of fish that are carefully bred like to like - with no introductions of other fish with unknown genetic makeups. As soon as an outcross occurs, introducing unknown genetic makeup, the numbers of undesirable traits rises exponentially.

I am sorry this is so long. Fish genetics is a very complicated and convoluted subject. Perhaps this helped. :)

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Fascinating stuff. :blink: It certainly causes one to admire the chinese breeders who have been doing it for so many generations. Like so many other ventures, the search for perfection is the motivation to breed an exquisite goldfish.

edit: one could also say that perfection is the ultimate expression of harmony. Sorry, had to throw in that gem of wisdom. ;)

Edited by Fishmerised

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Wow daryl! your answers way exceeded my expectations :D thank you very much for spending time writing such detailed answers.

It makes me wonder though. From what I've deducted from your answers, all the fish we bought from pet stores are of inferior quality (but good enough for pets), but are all good representatives of the breed & will breed true? Say I've obtained a great looking young black moor with flowing fins, deep body, prominent eyes & jet black velvety colouration, is it possible that such good specimen was produced by, say a black moor & a pearlscale? If so, then the young black moor is not a "true" black moor and if mated with a known "pure" black moor, most of the frys will not be "true" black moors, will it?

Hmmm, a thought occured to me though. I think there's no such things as "true" ranchu, or fantail, or oranda, or any breed for that matter. When a fish's characteristics complies to the one of the "standard of breeds" that has been set by us humans, then that fish will be called whatever breed its characteristics most resembles, isn't it daryl? :krazy: gah i confuse myself! :rofl i think i also confused u :lol:

Very fascinating stuff!! makes me think twice about crossing my black moor & my ranchu lol doesnt want the frys becomes all strange fishes & deformed

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Thank you so much!!!! That is the info I had been looking for in my other post lol! Great!! Fabulous! Im so happy now. hehe

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