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Guest Lyndzi

New Take On Euthanasia

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Guest Lyndzi

Hey guys, I stumbled across this informal experiment performed by a man who has several biology degrees and has been keeping fish for the better part of his life. He now runs a tropical fish board, and owns a company in the UK that sets up and maintains tanks for the public.

Here is the exterpt from the forum:

"Euthanasia prelim results (not for the squimish)

there has been loads on the board lately over this and some very wrong info here and there so i decided to do some fairly rougth experiments tho the results should stand as a good starting point for more in depth reaserch.

first the setup and problems faced.

first i tried to decide how you could measure in some way the level of pain a fish is feeling so various methods could be evaluated. after alot of thought i decided the simplist yet most accurate way to do this was to measure different stress level hormones both before and and directly post mortem. the hard part is getting a base reading from the fish, as any form of penetration with a needle will induce stress that will show in the blood 15-20 seconds later and this could skew the results. however if u tranq the fish first then it's an invalid test.

so it was decided to house the fish seperately in small 18"x12"x12" tanks for 48 hours with 70% water change daily with water taken directly from the sterile chamber of a central sump filter. then just before the test on each i sampled there water and tested for the hormones secreted in there urine useing a Gas Photo Spectrometer and Radon Gas Ioniser. this gave good non stress load levels on each subject.

It was decided that rather than just post a long list of data that wouldnt realy mean much to most i would use a scale of 1-10 to describe the humane index of each method if you like with 10 being the most humane.

the subjects chosen were 3" Gold fish all of wich were happy and healthy before hand.

the methods tested were Co2 (will count for all types) Clove oil, MS222, Freezing,Pure Ethanol Bath (98%), Para formaldahyde (cranial injection and submersed bath in 30% solution),Potasium permanganate cranial injection (is of use to me on the very big fish we sometimes have to deal with), spinal cord seperation,decaptation and hard blow to the head.

the following results were acheived

Co2 7

clove oil 7

MS222 9

Freezing 1

Pure Ethanol bath 2

Para Formaldahyde Bath 6

Paraformaldahyde crainial injection 9

Potaasium Cranial injection 9.5

Spinal Cord 3

Decapitaion 4

hard blow to the head (varied results from 10 experiments rageing from 1 to 8 )

ok this isnt conclusive science the experiment has a couple of flaws but the data is valid test data, and would server as a good start for more extensive research by someone with alot more time than me. i wouldnt recomend decapitaion as the results are very varied there it cant be described as a predictable method.

as for the rest that is for others to argue over"

You can view the entire thread here:

http://www.tropicalfish.site5.com/tfc/show...15&pagenumber=1

Just thought it would be a heads up on some traditionally 'humane' methods :hi Something to think about anyways

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Nice find Lyndzi..... I wonder what "MS222" is???? Hm.... not that I'm doubting anything this guy is saying, I would just think that someone that educated would be a better speller!! :D

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Guest Lyndzi

MS222 I'm pretty sure is a veterinary anaesthetic.

Haha he's from England, does that explain it? :lol: haha just kidding guys!

No this guy is always careless about his spelling, I think he's pretty busy and doesn't pay much attention to what he's typing. I do trust in his knowledge though B)

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im kinda shocked to see freezing as a least humane! Thats the method i would have used!

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Imagine a pure ethanol bath? eick! That's the last thing I'd do.

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Guest Lyndzi

Yeah I have used the freezer method a couple of times..

of course he used common goldfish, who have been known to survive being frozen into a popsicle, so maybe if he had of used tropical fish the results for that one would have been different.

I guess we're more comfortable with that method, because we can't see the fish suffering... out of sight, out of mind :( I feel very guilty now :crp

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I like the clove oil method. When my oranda, Julian got a huge mass in his side, that was just getting bigger, I did that. Seemed VERY peaceful. After he was gone, I put him in the freezer. :(

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i might sound stupid but i have no clue what clove oil is! Where do you get it and what else is it usually used for?

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Guest amysue

As a kid my mom used to make hard candy with one of the flavors being clove. Clove oil is a flavoring agent....specialty food stores sell it.

Of course, I could be wrong...but think that that is what everyone is talking about.

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Clove oil is usually sold in drug stores as a treatment for toothache; it is actually a local anaesthetic and will numb tissue instantly. It is a clear thin oil in very small bottles.

For euthanasia purposes, you need to shake 10 drops of the oil very vigorously in a small bottle of old tank water until the mixture has completely emulsified (just dripping the oil into water does not work). Then gradually add this emulsion to half a gallon of water (old tank water in a separate container with the fish already in it). As the mixture takes effect, the fish will slowly stop swimming, stop breathing and pass away. It's bst to leave the fish in the container for another half an hour or so, just to be on the safe side.

Please don't add vodka or other spirits to the clove oil though (sometimes done to make the oil emulsify quicker) as there is definite evidence that this causes pain and distress.

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I always found the freezer way wrong, wouldn't the fish still

be alive if we would heat the fish back up?

I remember watching a show about this woman who forgot her

chickens out side in the winter and her favorite chicken died.

So she tooked it in,and it wouldn't fit into the box she wanted to put the

chicken in to dig it since his legs where hard like a rock,so she put the

chicken right beside the fire place and after awhile she came back to find the chicken alive all confused ect ect it was pretty intresting.

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Guest Lyndzi

Hey Martinez, do you by any chance have a pond and winter your commons/koi outside? Because they definately freeze almost to the point of suspended animation, but come back everyspring.

I did hear somewhere that goldfish have been known to come back to life after being frozen completely, as in, Popsicle Pete. But of course that could be an old wives' tale. :P

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Fish will die if they freeze completely solid. Most people with ponds in places where they can freeze solid will bring their fish indoors for the winter or use a de-icer.

This is very interesting although I do not agree with the freezer method. I have used this many times myself. The basic principle of it is, as the water temperature cools the fish off, they go to sleep and eventually freeze to death. They basically are in a state of hibernation before they die.

Also, a reputable friend of mine has done a lot of research on this too and says that many biologists now say that fish do not feel pain in the same way that we do. Their nervous system and brains are not developed to the level ours are so they cannot interpret it in the same way. They feel something touch them and think, "get away, that might eat me" but do not feel pain sensation like we do.

Anyway Im not arguing here, just stating what I have read and heard over the years. Also the person who wrote that really didnt seem professional, grammatically or otherwise. In order to be a biologist you need excellent writing skills. It is possible he was just in a hurry but it really comes across as not being professional or reputable to me. Just my .02.

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Guest one fish wonder
black oranda....unlike the movies.....freezing an organism with a heart and blood makes their heart stop. when the heart stops, the person loses blood flow to vital organs and they die. ice=heart stop=dead

Although what you say is true I have heard of stories like black oranda was saying so I feel this is perfectly acceptable and wouldn't use frezzing as a euthanasia (spl???) My fishy used to live in a small pond in my garden and this would freeze solid every winter and he lived outside for 4-5 years in that pond he is still alive and happy so I dont see how this method can actually work as many fish live out in the winter in ponds!!! Decapitation doesn't sound like mush fun I'd personly use the clove oil method now I know what it is!!!

:panana:nana :gbanana :rbanana :tbanana

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Guest Lyndzi

To all the hataz that didn't believe...^_^

http://www.tocaquatics.com/cgi-bin/ikonboa...t=ST;f=25;t=207

Jason Bell, TOC aquatics... that's the profile he wrote up for himself,

I know this guy from another forum (where he was banned, actually!) and his advice is always spot on... A little rough around the edges maybe, but a brilliant guy. So take from it what you will, but I have never gone against this guy's advice, and never been disappointed.

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Some animals have chemicals that keep their cells from freezing completely ( like biological anti-freeze). If their cells don't freeze completely they don't die. So they can appear frozen and can remain locked in ice for a whole winter and then thaw out in the spring and be alive. Their metabolic rate slows way down so that they can survive. I'm not saying goldfish do this (I don't know, maybe they do) but definately some animals can. I do know that our pond froze every winter and our goldfish always lived.

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