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charliebower14

Black moors acting lethargic

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I have 2 black moors in a 55 litre tank, one is about 2 months old and the other maybe 5 months old. They're being moved into a bigger tank soon but they've seemed a bit lethargic this last week or 2. The tank has been set up for 4 months and is fully cycled. Water levels tested with api test kit:

Ammonia - between 0-0.25ppm but I'd say it's closer to 0

Nitrite - 0ppm

Nitrate - between 0-5 ppm

PH - 6.4 -6.6 

I introduced some new plants into the tank a couple weeks ago and after this they became very lethargic, hiding in the roots at the back of the tank completely still for lengths of time. I read that they dont like heavily planted tanks so I took out most of the plants just leaving in a few nerve plants that dont really get in the way of them swimming. They seemed to become more active after this and I thought the problem was fixed but I've noticed they're spending a lot of time hanging near the front of the tank. They keep moving but spend quite a lot of time there at various points during the day, the big one more than the little one.

Then in the last few days I noticed what looks like ich on the bigger ones top fin. It's just one little spot about 1mm in diameter and it looks kinda fury. I'm pretty sure its ich so now I'm thinking that's why they might be lethargic, I read it's not always visable so it's possible they're both affected. Why might they have got this when my tank levels are pretty good? 

Before seeing the white spot I thought it might be the tank size but now I think probably not? Should I treat them for ich before moving them to the new tank or should I move them and see if they improve? If treating I would like to use salt as I dont want to put any chemicals in my tank. I haven't noticed any other symptoms other than lethargy and the white spot, they always come to the front when I go to their tank and they've not gone off their food, although I'm currently 48 hours into starving them and I'm going to give them peas tomorrow incase they're constipated. 

Anyones opinion on this would be greatly appreciated thanks. 

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23 minutes ago, charliebower14 said:

I have 2 black moors in a 55 litre tank, one is about 2 months old and the other maybe 5 months old. They're being moved into a bigger tank soon but they've seemed a bit lethargic this last week or 2. The tank has been set up for 4 months and is fully cycled.

Im so glad to see your getting them a bigger tank. They really do need 20 gallons per fish. :)

 

23 minutes ago, charliebower14 said:

Water levels tested with api test kit:

Ammonia - between 0-0.25ppm but I'd say it's closer to 0

Nitrite - 0ppm

Nitrate - between 0-5 ppm

PH - 6.4 -6.6 

Could you please test out your tap water on all of these for me :) 

23 minutes ago, charliebower14 said:

I introduced some new plants into the tank a couple weeks ago and after this they became very lethargic, hiding in the roots at the back of the tank completely still for lengths of time. I read that they dont like heavily planted tanks so I took out most of the plants just leaving in a few nerve plants that dont really get in the way of them swimming. They seemed to become more active after this and I thought the problem was fixed but I've noticed they're spending a lot of time hanging near the front of the tank. They keep moving but spend quite a lot of time there at various points during the day, the big one more than the little one.

When you got the plants did you disinfect them first before placing them in there? 

23 minutes ago, charliebower14 said:

Then in the last few days I noticed what looks like ich on the bigger ones top fin. It's just one little spot about 1mm in diameter and it looks kinda fury. I'm pretty sure its ich so now I'm thinking that's why they might be lethargic, I read it's not always visable so it's possible they're both affected. Why might they have got this when my tank levels are pretty good? 

Before seeing the white spot I thought it might be the tank size but now I think probably not? Should I treat them for ich before moving them to the new tank or should I move them and see if they improve? If treating I would like to use salt as I dont want to put any chemicals in my tank. I haven't noticed any other symptoms other than lethargy and the white spot, they always come to the front when I go to their tank and they've not gone off their food, although I'm currently 48 hours into starving them and I'm going to give them peas tomorrow incase they're constipated. 

Anyones opinion on this would be greatly appreciated thanks. 

If you can please get us a photo of the white spots. :)

I wouldn't stop feeding them. Goldfish don't really need to be fasted unless your going to travel with them or show them. Goldfish dont have a stomach and if the fish is constapated the best food to help with that is Duckweed :thumbs: or Green beans for the really bad case.

By the way :welcome 

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Thank you for getting back to me so quick. 

4 hours ago, koko said:

Could you please test out your tap water on all of these for me :) 

I took samples from the tap and from the fish tank and tested them both so I could compare them against each other.

The PH of the tank is 6.6

The PH of the tap water is 6.8 (I'm pretty sure I used to get this reading for the tank)

Ammonia looks the same for both I'd say 0 or maybe just the tiniest bit 

Nitrite in both is 0

The nitrate for the tank and the tap water look almost the same although its quite hard to tell. They look to be between 0 and 1ppm very low. 

I must have done the first test a bit wrong as I rushed to test before work, but I made sure the vials were thoroughly rinsed this time and was accurate with drops. 

4 hours ago, koko said:

When you got the plants did you disinfect them first before placing them in there?

No I didn't😖 I honestly hadn't thought about that. How would you recommend disinfecting plants, for future reference? Could this be why the tanks PH is slightly lower?

4 hours ago, koko said:

If you can please get us a photo of the white spots. :)

20200122_010654.thumb.jpg.3d8ede5ddf1b4f4fa415effbbfd84e75.jpg

This is the bigger of the two. Hes the only one with any spots and he just has one on his top fin. This spot is in exactly the same place on the other side of his fin.

4 hours ago, koko said:

I wouldn't stop feeding them. Goldfish don't really need to be fasted unless your going to travel with them or show them. Goldfish dont have a stomach and if the fish is constapated the best food to help with that is Duckweed :thumbs: or Green beans for the really bad case.

They both seem more like themselves since I got home and i gave them a few flakes after reading what you said about not fasting them. I will get some green beans tomorrow. I didn't know duck weed was good for them, I would like some for my tank I just need to find somewhere I can buy it near me. 

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If you’ve had them for two months it’s unlikely to be ich, and the spot is too big.  More likely your water chemistry isn’t making them happy, especially if it is that acidic and soft, too.  Do you know your hardness, by chance?  The city should have some information on it.

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5 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

If you’ve had them for two months it’s unlikely to be ich, and the spot is too big.  More likely your water chemistry isn’t making them happy, especially if it is that acidic and soft, too.  Do you know your hardness, by chance?  The city should have some information on it.

I've had the big guy about 3 months and the little one about a month, I'm relieved it's probably not ich😌 I've never bothered altering the PH before as I read it's better to have consistency. Would you reccomend using a buffer to make it more alkaline? I live in a soft to moderately hard water area in the UK. I don't have anything that measures the hardness but I have a TDS meter and the tap water is 64ppm and the tank 88pm 

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Oh if it’s been a month parasites are definitely possible, two months is less likely.  I must have misunderstood your initial post and thought the age was the time you had them.

Did you do any quarantine treatments or prophylactics?  

As for hardness, search your town’s municipal page or whatever the UK equivalent is.  There should be water quality records for every part of the country.  I know we had them when I lived in Devon. If you can fill out the entire form with as much detail as possible it will help us.  The water testing info was very helpful, we just need to additional history and that all logged in one place so we don’t get confused ;)

Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank)

* Nitrite Level(Tank)

* Nitrate level(Tank)

* Ammonia Level(Tap)

* Nitrite Level(Tap)

* Nitrate level(Tap)

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?

* Water temperature?

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?

* How often do you change the water and how much?

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?

* How many fish in the tank and their size?

* What kind of water additives or conditioners?

* What do you feed your fish and how often?

* Any new fish added to the tank?

* Any medications added to the tank?

* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank.Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.

* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

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8 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Did you do any quarantine treatments or prophylactics?  

No I didn't do anything like this, I just acclimated him and then netted him into the tank. 

I found a website that I think is similar to what you were describing. 

https://www.stwater.co.uk/my-supply/water-quality/check-my-water-quality/

Using the postcode DE4 2DP you can see all sorts of results for water in my area

Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank) really low less than 0.1ppm

* Nitrite Level(Tank
0ppm

* Nitrate level(Tank)
Less than 1ppm

* Ammonia Level(Tap)
Less than 0.1ppm

* Nitrite Level(Tap)
0ppm

* Nitrate level(Tap)
Less than 1ppm

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 
PH is 6.6. sorry I dont know the other values

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
PH 6.8
I'm not sure of the KH or the GH but on the website I found for my area it said it was 2.75 degrees german
Chloride on the same website says 12.3mg/l

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?
Api freshwater test kit uses drops

* Water temperature?
About 21°C (70°F). Theres no heater but the house is kept at a pretty consistent temperature. It maybe drops half a degree at night

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?
14.5gallon tank has been running 4 months and is fully cycled. I have a 26 gallon tank for them to go In until i move house in a couple of months when I will get a much bigger tank.

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?
Fluval u3 rated for 40gallons and a little sponge bubbler rated for 10 gallons


* How often do you change the water and how much?
I change the water twice a week normally about 25%

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?
4 days ago I changed nearly 50%

* How many fish in the tank and their size?
2 black moors the little one about 4cm and the bigger one about 7cm including tail.

* What kind of water additives or conditioners?
I use aqua one water conditioner every time I do a water change. I have some api stress coat that I've used previously but havent used any in the last month.

* What do you feed your fish and how often?
They get a mix of goldfish flakes, bloodworms and peas. I feed them once a day mostly flakes

* Any new fish added to the tank?
The most recent was added a month ago and he was netted in after being acclimated

* Any medications added to the tank?
Nope

* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank.Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
I've never treated either of them or the tank for anything

* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
Only the white spot on the top fin of the big one, the little one has no visable problems

* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?
They're both eating fine they were swimming in one spot at the front of the tank several times a day but this last day they've seemed more like themselves just the spot is still present.

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I want to see what @Arctic Mama says. But if it was me and my fish I would do a Prazi and Metro round, but I know your in another country. Can you find those?

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I’ve got a lot going right now but I didn’t want to leave this hanging!


Your water is ridiculously soft.  The pH doesn’t much matter, but it’s really not great for goldfish to have so little redox potential and can make things unstable.  Koko can walk you through buffering with both baking soda and aragonite sand :) We want to see that hardness much improved, even if the pH doesn’t change much.  And then it’s a simple matter of rebuffering the water during water changes for whatever volume is replaced.

I would probably do both prazi and metro, but the water needs to be warmer, too.  If this is a parasitic then metro might help or might not be enough, but being able to raise the heat gradually during treatment to closer together 78-80F is going to help mature any larval parasite quicker so we can see what we are dealing with.  It will also boost your goldfish’s immune system, the cooler water can be stressful to fancies compared with comets and shubunkin.

If you are able to obtain those meds (prazi shouldn’t be hard to find in the UK but metronidazole often needs ordering from the US) that would be the first step. If that isn’t possible we can focus on getting a heater and going from there with a prazi and salt treatment instead, maybe with some methylene blue or colloids silver as an additional antiseptic if needed.

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Thank you for your advise i really appreciate it.

I got a KH test kit today so I will test that for tap and tank water tomorrow and let you know. 

I have a heater that I can put in to warm up the water. I can't find anywhere selling prazi in the uk but I found something I think is similar, called fluke solve. I cant find any meto though.

I'm about to go to bed but tomorrow I'll do KH tests so buffering advice would be greatly appreciated thanks again

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Fluke solve should work, can you get a picture of the active ingredients? Go ahead and put the heater in and raise the temp about a degree every four hours or so until it’s up to 78-80F

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If you can get a one gallon jug. Then fill it with tap water. Then your going to test the ph. Then add 1/8 of a teaspoon of baking soda to it. Mix it in well let sit for about a min or so. Then test. Keep adding the baking soda and testing the ph till you get the ph close to 7.0 - 7.2 that range.

Now keep track of how much you used, cause that would be the amount you would need to use for your water changes.

Also see if you can find some crushed coral and a mesh bag the sell at the LFS or a used pair of panty hoses will work.

What you want to do with that is put the crushed coral in the bag, then place that into the filter. This will keep your ph more stable once you get the ph up. I have to use it in my tank as my kh is low and my ph will slowly go down. 

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I cant find anywhere that lists all the ingredients for fluke solve, only that it contains 50% praziquantel.

https://www.vetark.co.uk/pages/SoluPraz_1.aspx?pageid=368

That's a link to the page with information about it.

I'll start raising the temp over the next couple of days.

I tried using my KH test kit - you have to add 1 drop at a time and wait for the colour to change from blue to yellow, counting how many drops you add. The first two drops didn't add any colour to the liquid and then the 3rd drop made it yellow so I assume the KH is less than 3. 

I will have a go at raising the PH with baking soda tomorrow. Should I raise the PH for all water changes from now on? 

I will also have a look round for some coral.

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The fluke solve is a good choice, you can use it :)

 

Yes. We definitely want to buffer that water a bit! And yes, you’ll do this every time.  Baking soda is great because it is so cheap.  But remember the pH is really less important here than the hardness, we want more stability and that will give it to you.  The pH change is just a side effect here, but we are aiming for less soft and volatile, and better for your fish’s osmotic balance.

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Sorry for not responding for a few days, I've been really busy. 

The tank is now at 25.5 and PH is 6.8. I've not managed to get any coral for the filter but I've ordered the fluke solve and it should be here my the end of the week. How long will they need to be in the treated tank for? Their new tank is ready for them to go in

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That’s better on hardness :)  Still pretty soft but much much more stable and better for the fish.

For the fluke treatment, we like to leave it in four days, then change the water and give three days off to let any fluke eggs hatch. One week cycles.

I usually repeat that three times, for three weeks total.  Monday through Thursday with fluke treatment, weekend with clean water.  Then repeat the next Monday :)

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Thank you for your advice, I will start treatment next week and keep you updated. 

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UPDATE

I'm almost 2 weeks into treatment, I'll be putting my third dose of fluke solve in the tank tomorrow. The PH is about 7 but the KH is still about 2. I've found some crushed coral I can order online, how much do I need? 

The white spot on the big guy disappeared and another one appeared in a similar place but that also disappeared so he currently hasn't got any visable symptoms. However I noticed what looks like rot?? on the little ones tail fin. Here's the best picture I could get. Its the first physical symptoms the little ones shown, but it's clearly different to the white spot. What would you reccomend I do now? 

20200216_102716.jpg

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Does the tail just look a little frayed? I can’t tell from that picture, I’d need a close up in bright light behind something pale like a white bowl or your hand.

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No the tail doesn't look frayed it's like a semicircular white patch about 5mm in diameter and 2 or 3mm high from the bottom of her fin. The white patch looks like it might have white stringy bits coming off it? It's difficult to see but I tried taking some more pictures, however they're not much better than the last so I'll attach the best. Sorry, I'm not sure if any of this info will help you further 

20200219_230826_003_saved.jpg

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Ah okay I see it!  Best thing you can do is just topically swab on either meth blue or hydrogen peroxide.  Salt dips may also not be a terrible idea.  If more pop up we may need to consider treating the tank or adjusting your care routine, as something in the water changes or buffering could be stressing him and making him susceptible to issues.

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Not sure if I can get hold of any meth blue but I know I can get hydrogen peroxide. How would you apply? With something like a cotton bud? I can also pick up some aquarium salt for baths. 

The PH is more stable now but the KH is still low so I'm sure that's not helping them. How much crushed coral do I need per gallon of water? 

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Meth blue is just a cheap little antiseptic from the fish store, but peroxide can work.  The advantage of meth blue is you can also use it in the tank for a topical treatment if you’re dealing with something more pervasive.  It’s a front line, low side effect treatment every fish keeper should have on hand, like salt :)

 

I’m not 100% sure on the crushed coral, as I just ran it in my tank prophylactically and never did use it as a deliberate buffer so much as a stabilizer.  @koko or @shakaho or @FishyMandy do any of you happen to have that dosage information on hand?

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I haven't used Crushed Coral before so I have no idea :(

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I've been to my local fish store and got some salt, how much should i use and how long should I bath her for?

I couldn't get any meth blue but I can order some online. 

I also managed to get some crushed oyster shells because the guy said they would do the same thing as the crushed coral. He said it wouldn't matter how much I put in because it would only dissolve when needed.

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