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KevinsFancy

White Ulcer on Fantail, Tx failure, please help.

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  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0-.25 ppm (TAN) (Mini Cycle)
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tank) 5-10 ppm
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap) .50-1.0 ppm
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.8 
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 8.0-8.2   (I live in San Diego, our Tap contains Chloramines but I don't have a test for that)
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API FW Master, Seachem Ammonia Alert, Seachem Multi-Test Ammonia
      • * Water temperature? 75F-78F
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 55G, running since the cycle completed in June 2018
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? AquaClear HOB 70, Tetra Whisper IQ 60, SunSun (Called a Polar Aurora) 304b added a week ago. Prefilters on all.
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? 20% 2x/week, up to 50% every other day (recently)
        • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Yesterday, 10G
        • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 5, all Fanicies. Orange Fantail, 3.5" w/tail. Red Headed Ryukin, 2.5" w/tail. Black Moor, 3"w/tail. Shubunkin, 4.5" w/tail, and another Shubunkin, 4" w/tail.
        • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Seachem Prime, AmQuel+, Seachem Stability
        • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Alternating, Aqueon Goldfish Granules, TetraPro Goldfish Crisps
        • * Any new fish added to the tank? No
        • * Any medications added to the tank? Currently none. Recently, regarding this ulcer, I have used a full course per directions on each of Kanaplex (Water), PolyGuard (Water), Metroplex (Food)- with GarlicGuard and Focus 
        • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank.Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. The only other time was immediately after bringing home the two Shubunkins. The Black Moor ONLY came down with Ich. Treated my DT with Cupramine as directed, cured. 
        • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? The wen on the Fantail presented with a small ulcer above its left eye approximately 1.5 months ago. Black Moor presented with Unilateral Popeye, and minor clouding at the same time.
        • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom? Fantail is now showing some clamping as of this morning, also now listless, and bottom sitting in the corner, facing the glass. 

        I know that these forums are integral in the care of fish and have served to help NUMEROUS new aquarists find their way. I'm hoping that will be the happy end of this story. I found Koko's through yet another Google search, but this was the FIRST time I found a picture that even closely resembled my fish. It is VERY difficult to use the word "white" online or in forums without being regularly asked, "Are you SURE its not Ich?" Been there, done that!

        About April of this year I had just lost a Betta that I rescued from my classroom (Im a Behavior Interventionist, and my student threw the tank across the room) he survived for 6 months or so, but owing to my COMPLETE lack of knowledge he passed with what I now know to be Dropsy (Likely from my lack of adequate care). This stirred an interest in me and I got a 10 gallon aquarium kit, and started researching... and researching, and researching. I exhaustively followed message boards, forums, dedicated websites, etc. Not long after, a friend of mine who works at a large, big box Pet COmpany, showed up to my house with two fish in a bag, one BEAUTIFUL fantail, and one wild looking Black Moor that were surrendered to them. By now, I knew about the nitrogen cycle, the time that took, and a number of other things nonspecific to Goldies, so I set out again to research, this time on breed specific info. I feel I'm a very well informed guy today. I know a great deal about care of Goldfish, but additionally, a great deal about the Freshwater hobby. I knew flinging them into a 10G tank with nothing more than a subpar filter and tap water dechlorinated that day was a bad idea, but it was my only choice. I bought a 55G TopFin setup, and a stand. I went immediately to amazon and purchased what I needed to run a fishless cycle. Having called my friend who "bestowed" the fish upon me, I next called him and explained that WE had a lot of work to do. It has become my hobby very 
        quickly, and I spend a lot of my time researching and maintaining my tank. 

        The problem- Approximately 1.5-2 months ago, I went out of town for a Union conference. I was gone about 5 days, what I returned to was a crashed pH, and high ammonia and NitrAtes. There was also a drop of about 8 degrees in the temp, why I am not sure, but it was under 70F upon arrival. I set to work on regulating my pH slowly while also accomplishing large water changes 1-2x/day. I made it through and was so pleased that I made it out with all my fish when all parameters returned to normal. Not long after (weeks maybe?) I noticed a small spot on my Fantail, above his eye, it was white with what appeared to be white threads about 3mm long swaying about from it. Thus began my disease and treatment research. Soon thereafter, I noticed he developed fluid UNDER his eyes, not surrounding, not behind as in Popeye. After looking at literally everything I could find on every website Google had, because the disease process was not immediately identifiable, or nondescript, I proceeded to a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment with Kanaplex in the water column believing I was treating a bacterial infection secondary to possible mechanical injury. The ulcer did not respond during treatment, briefly seemed better (couple weeks?), then began getting worse. I knew there were stronger options, but as a Nurse myself, I didn't want to start there (not to mention all the debate on BB and Antimicrobials). Now it was ON! I thought, I'm gonna kick this! I began a treatment of PolyGuard in the water column, and Metroplex feeding as it seemed like HITH from Hexamita. After completion of both treatments concurrently, there was no improvement and my lovely white decor was now blue (and tacky), but my prized fantail was NO better. I ceased treatment thinking perhaps the regiment killed the supposed parasite/ bacterial infection, but the ulcer was just taking time to heal. Fast forward to last night. I looked at his head and lo and behold its getting worse... Again. A normally lively, inquisitive fish, he's sitting in the corner, or listlessly floating with his tail hung behind him. 

        This has become urgent, the behavior and affect change is much too sudden. The wound seems to have grown overnight and I have already used some very powerful drugs to try to help him. I think I may be in a mini-cycle as well as I had an uptick in my Ammonia and NitrAtes. I have been using Prime to keep things safe, and more recently AmQuel+, so Ammonia numbers may be off (It's been about 20 hours since my last tank dose of Amquel)

        Some of my questions may be inferred, but please, I am new and know only what my research has taught me. I am just as "new" as any of us facing an obstacle that we can't cross alone. Any and all information, advice, "have you tried/ thought of?", or guidance would REALLY help me out here. 

        Feel free to ask any questions, or for further clarification. I really just need this out into the world, because research can't take me any further. 

         

        All my best,

        Kevin 

         

        PICTURE KEY:

        Ulcer just above his L Eye

        Another View

        Seachem Ammonia Alert Showing "Safe" - In reality it looks more like "Alert" when the light is off

        My Tank :-)

        All Parameters for Tank

        All Parameters for Tap

         

 

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Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank) 0-.25 ppm (TAN) (Mini Cycle)

* Nitrite Level(Tank) 0 ppm

* Nitrate level(Tank) 5-10 ppm

* Ammonia Level(Tap) .50-1.0 ppm

* Nitrite Level(Tap) 0 ppm

* Nitrate level(Tap) 0 ppm

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.8 

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 8.0-8.2  (I live in San Diego, our Tap contains Chloramines but I don't have a test for that)

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API FW Master, Seachem Ammonia Alert, Seachem Multi-Test Ammonia

* Water temperature? 75F-78F

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 55G, running since the cycle completed in June 2018

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? AquaClear HOB 70, Tetra Whisper IQ 60, SunSun (Called a Polar Aurora) 304b added a week ago. Prefilters on all.

* How often do you change the water and how much? 20% 2x/week, up to 50% every other day (recently)

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Yesterday, 10G

* How many fish in the tank and their size? 5, all Fanicies. Orange Fantail, 3.5" w/tail. Red Headed Ryukin, 2.5" w/tail. Black Moor, 3"w/tail. Shubunkin, 4.5" w/tail, and another Shubunkin, 4" w/tail.

* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Seachem Prime, AmQuel+, Seachem Stability

* What do you feed your fish and how often? Alternating, Aqueon Goldfish Granules, TetraPro Goldfish Crisps

* Any new fish added to the tank? No

* Any medications added to the tank? Currently none. Recently, regarding this ulcer, I have used a full course per directions on each of Kanaplex (Water), PolyGuard (Water), Metroplex (Food)- with GarlicGuard and Focus 

* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank.Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. The only other time was immediately after bringing home the two Shubunkins. The Black Moor ONLY came down with Ich. Treated my DT with Cupramine as directed, cured. 

* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? The wen on the Fantail presented with a small ulcer above its left eye approximately 1.5 months ago. Black Moor presented with Unilateral Popeye, and minor clouding at the same time.

* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom? Fantail is now showing some clamping as of this morning, also now listless, and bottom sitting in the corner, facing the glass. 

I know that these forums are integral in the care of fish and have served to help NUMEROUS new aquarists find their way. I'm hoping that will be the happy end of this story. I found Koko's through yet another Google search, but this was the FIRST time I found a picture that even closely resembled my fish. It is VERY difficult to use the word "white" online or in forums without being regularly asked, "Are you SURE its not Ich?" Been there, done that!

About April of this year I had just lost a Betta that I rescued from my classroom (Im a Behavior Interventionist, and my student threw the tank across the room) he survived for 6 months or so, but owing to my COMPLETE lack of knowledge he passed with what I now know to be Dropsy (Likely from my lack of adequate care). This stirred an interest in me and I got a 10 gallon aquarium kit, and started researching... and researching, and researching. I exhaustively followed message boards, forums, dedicated websites, etc. Not long after, a friend of mine who works at a large, big box Pet COmpany, showed up to my house with two fish in a bag, one BEAUTIFUL fantail, and one wild looking Black Moor that were surrendered to them. By now, I knew about the nitrogen cycle, the time that took, and a number of other things nonspecific to Goldies, so I set out again to research, this time on breed specific info. I feel I'm a very well informed guy today. I know a great deal about care of Goldfish, but additionally, a great deal about the Freshwater hobby. I knew flinging them into a 10G tank with nothing more than a subpar filter and tap water dechlorinated that day was a bad idea, but it was my only choice. I bought a 55G TopFin setup, and a stand. I went immediately to amazon and purchased what I needed to run a fishless cycle. Having called my friend who "bestowed" the fish upon me, I next called him and explained that WE had a lot of work to do. It has become my hobby very quickly, and I spend a lot of my time researching and maintaining my tank. 
The problem- Approximately 1.5-2 months ago, I went out of town for a Union conference. I was gone about 5 days, what I returned to was a crashed pH, and high ammonia and NitrAtes. There was also a drop of about 8 degrees in the temp, why I am not sure, but it was under 70F upon arrival. I set to work on regulating my pH slowly while also accomplishing large water changes 1-2x/day. I made it through and was so pleased that I made it out with all my fish when all parameters returned to normal. Not long after (weeks maybe?) I noticed a small spot on my Fantail, above his eye, it was white with what appeared to be white threads about 3mm long swaying about from it. Thus began my disease and treatment research. Soon thereafter, I noticed he developed fluid UNDER his eyes, not surrounding, not behind as in Popeye. After looking at literally everything I could find on every website Google had, because the disease process was not immediately identifiable, or nondescript, I proceeded to a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment with Kanaplex in the water column believing I was treating a bacterial infection secondary to possible mechanical injury. The ulcer did not respond during treatment, briefly seemed better (couple weeks?), then began getting worse. I knew there were stronger options, but as a Nurse myself, I didn't want to start there (not to mention all the debate on BB and Antimicrobials). Now it was ON! I thought, I'm gonna kick this! I began a treatment of PolyGuard in the water column, and Metroplex feeding as it seemed like HITH from Hexamita. After completion of both treatments concurrently, there was no improvement and my lovely white decor was now blue (and tacky), but my prized fantail was NO better. I ceased treatment thinking perhaps the regiment killed the supposed parasite/ bacterial infection, but the ulcer was just taking time to heal. Fast forward to last night. I looked at his head and lo and behold its getting worse... Again. A normally lively, inquisitive fish, he's sitting in the corner, or listlessly floating with his tail hung behind him. 

This has become urgent, the behavior and affect change is much too sudden. The wound seems to have grown overnight and I have already used some very powerful drugs to try to help him. I think I may be in a mini-cycle as well as I had an uptick in my Ammonia and NitrAtes. I have been using Prime to keep things safe, and more recently AmQuel+, so Ammonia numbers may be off (It's been about 20 hours since my last tank dose of Amquel)

Some of my questions may be inferred, but please, I am new and know only what my research has taught me. I am just as "new" as any of us facing an obstacle that we can't cross alone. Any and all information, advice, "have you tried/ thought of?", or guidance would REALLY help me out here. 

Feel free to ask any questions, or for further clarification. I really just need this out into the world, because research can't take me any further. 

 

All my best,

Kevin 

 

PICTURE KEY:

Ulcer just above his L Eye

Another View

Seachem Ammonia Alert Showing "Safe" - In reality it looks more like "Alert" when the light is off

My Tank :-)

All Parameters for Tank

All Parameters for Tap

 

I copied and pasted this again so mobile users can read it. 

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I think I know why that happened. I just looked on my phone. Do you think I should just repost?

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Please start by reading our "Guidelines for healthy goldfish".   You will need a larger tank as your fish grow.

Since you have ammonia in your tap water,  you should consider multiple smaller water changes rather than one large change a week.  You don't want to raise the ammonia level when you do a water change.

Prime can protect the fish from up to 1ppm  ammonia/nitrite.  This protection only lasts a day, so you need to dose Prime for the full tank volume every day.  Prime does not affect the results of your ammonia test.  It converts the highly toxic ammonia to the much less toxic ammonium.  Your test measures "total ammonia"  ammonium plus ammonia, so converting one form to the other will not change your reading.

When you read the guidelines, you will see that we recommend a minimum of a weekly 50% water change, but that assumes you have adequate filtration provide at least 20 gallons of water per fish.  You will remove about the same amount of waste from the tank doing 10% changes daily,  20% every other day,  or 25% three days a week.

I didn't want to start there (not to mention all the debate on BB and Antimicrobials."  Tell me about this "debate."  Do you find people who believe that antibiotics  selectively kill bad bacteria?   Put antibiotics in the tank, you will get ammonia and nitrite readings in a previously cycled tank.  Even after you stop treatment, you get to do lots of large water changes before the population of nitrifiers  gets restored to "fully cycled" levels.  

The first advice we give for treating sick fish is to remove them to  a "hospital tank" and maintain it's water quality with large (preferably 100%) daily water changes.  I use a underbed tote like this for a hospital tank.  Actually, I use two of them and use the "bucket to bucket" method of 100% daily water changes.

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I do have a question for the OP when was the last time you dumped the water out of your filters? 

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I’m not sure I understand. Do you mean clean them? Water flows through them constantly. I service parts of each of them every three weeks or so dependent upon water flow rates. 

 

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19 hours ago, KevinsFancy said:

I’m not sure I understand. Do you mean clean them? Water flows through them constantly. I service parts of each of them every three weeks or so dependent upon water flow rates. 

 

When you do a water change you should really dump out the water in the HOB since it will have a lot of gunk in the bottom of it. The Canister filters I recommend every time ou clean the media.

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Shakaho gave you excellent advice.  A larger tank volume will solve many of your problems, as will frequent, smaller water changes (several times per week) so your filtration can help manage the ammonia in your tap water.

 

Please let us know when you have a hospital tank ready and we can help you from there :)

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On 11/14/2018 at 10:17 PM, KevinsFancy said:

I’m not sure I understand. Do you mean clean them? Water flows through them constantly. I service parts of each of them every three weeks or so dependent upon water flow rates. 

 

A filter serves two functions.  Water goes through sponges/filter mats/floss -- mechanical filtration -- which collect debris.  Then it goes through the biomedium -- bioballs/ ceramic rings/lava rocks etc.  These provide a home for the nitrifiers that convert ammonia to nitrate, using a lot of oxygen in the process.  If you dump the dirty water and rinse the media on a regular basis, the nitrifiers and the fish get clean water and adequate oxygen. 

If you don't clean the crud that collects in the mechanical medium, it rots by the action of decomposing bacteria.  This process requires oxygen, so the action of the nitrifiers slows since they don't get as much oxygen.  Also debris gets into the biomedium which can clog the biomedium, decreasing the availability of oxygen and ammonia to the nitrifiers.  

To keep the filter clean, dump the water from your filter and vigorously rinse the crud from your filter container and the mechanical medium when you change water.  Then use some of the water you removed from the tank to rinse crud from the biomedium.  

Also, please ignore the advice given by the makers of the filter and medium about replacing your filter medium -- AKA decimating your nitrifiers.  Mechanical medium receiving regular cleaning will keep working for a few years, and biomedium at least a decade.

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