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goldylove

floating ryukin

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Hi guys. Been ages since I've posted but I have a swim bladder problem with my 5 year old ryukin Freckle & am hoping to save him. I lost my black moor almost a year ago to same problem after trying everything i could. Thanks for any input, I'm at a loss at the moment & am considering euthanasia if he doesn't right himself & can't eat.

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank)0ppm-0.25ppm
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tank)0ppm-5.0ppm
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 0ppm
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0ppm
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) ph 7.6 kh 3 gh 14
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) ph 7.6 kh 0 gh 0
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops
      • * Water temperature? 23 (switched up 2 degrees from regular to try & help digestion)
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 400 litres, 12+ months running, large filter been running 5 years
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Eheim 2217 & 2213.
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? every couple of weeks, approx 1/3 - 1/2
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 2 days, 50%
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? Comet 10 inch, fantail 4 inch, shubunkin 7 inch, telescope comet 7 inch, oranda 6 inch, ryukin 6 inch, bristlenose pleco 4 inches
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? prime, aquarium salt
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Give the brand, type of food (sinking/floating pellets, gel food, steamed vegetable, etc.), and how frequently you feed each. hikari wheatgerm formula sinking pellets last few months(koi food recommended by aquarium staffer), once daily. previously a vegetable based ciclid sinking pellet(cant remember brand, comes in a black container, also do goldfish sinking pellets but they had run out)  as advised bu aquarium staff. peas occasionally. algae wafer if they beat the pleco to it.
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? no, last one was 6 months ago.
  • * Any medications added to the tank? kanaplex
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.  prazi 1 round maybe 6-12 months ago, salt on & off but usually not, salt dip for sick fish only yesterday 15 minutes 1 tbsp salt per 1 litre water, ate peas 4 days ago, fasted since then, no interest in peas last night. kanaplex & metroplex 10 months ago to attempt to treat SBD in black moor (unsuccessful. R.I.P Tiny)
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? large patch of blood under the scales on the belly 2 weeks ago, suspected septacaemia & treated with salt, went away after a couple of days. added kanaplex once it arrived in the mail but blood had already gone by then. blood on the belly again but its in a ring shape, i think it's from floating the last couple of days where his belly sticks out. sort of tilting to one side a bit more today but still can't get upright. blood amount has decreased.
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? . swimming upside down often but able to right itself(last few months), problems with balance, somesaulting. appetite usually very good but not showing interest in food. Got stuck in the pleco cave a week ago, damaged tail fins, a few days later started floating

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How Deep is your tank?

One thing I would try is putting him in a very shallow container (Like an Under Bed Storage Container) and feeding him duckweed. The Shallow water sometimes makes it easier for them to right themselves

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Question: if you tap water has zero hardness, are you using a water softener or reverse osmosis filtration?  Or was that a typo?

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6 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Question: if you tap water has zero hardness, are you using a water softener or reverse osmosis filtration?  Or was that a typo?

No not a typo. I have crushed coral in the filter which was mainly to stabilise the ph, which was dropping to around 6 a year or so ago. kh & gh are a relatively new thing to me, only got a test kit 2 days ago. i know the reading isn't good but i have no idea what to do about it.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, FishyMandy said:

How Deep is your tank?

One thing I would try is putting him in a very shallow container (Like an Under Bed Storage Container) and feeding him duckweed. The Shallow water sometimes makes it easier for them to right themselves

it's a 4ft x 2ft x 2ft tank. i'll try to put him in a shallow tub & see if this helps. he ate peas from my hand last night so that was encouraging. I'll see if i can get some duckweed too. thanks :)

Edited by goldylove

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1 hour ago, goldylove said:

No not a typo. I have crushed coral in the filter which was mainly to stabilise the ph, which was dropping to around 6 a year or so ago. kh & gh are a relatively new thing to me, only got a test kit 2 days ago. i know the reading isn't good but i have no idea what to do about it.

I would like you to do a test for us :)

Get a gallon jug, fill it with tap water. Test it

Then let that jug of water sit over night, then test it again.

Then do it again in 48 hours.

Test for Ph kh and gh please. I would like to see how the water is changing :) 

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ok, gallon jug (bucket) of water test is underway. Initial readings are slightly different to yesterdays. wondering if using water from the hot tap has anything to do with this? i filled the bucket the same way i would to top up the tank, mixing hot & cold water to get approximate temperature match whereas yesterday just did tests on straight cold tap water...

 Freckle is currently in a shallow tub of water. tried to feed duckweed but wasn't interested. will hold it together with some peas later & see if i can trick him into eating it. 

How long should I leave him in the shallow tub for before it usually "works" if it's going to? i don't know if i want to leave him in there overnight as aerating the tub is quite loud & im not sure if i trust the heaters not to somehow melt through the plastic...

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4 hours ago, goldylove said:

ok, gallon jug (bucket) of water test is underway. Initial readings are slightly different to yesterdays. wondering if using water from the hot tap has anything to do with this? i filled the bucket the same way i would to top up the tank, mixing hot & cold water to get approximate temperature match whereas yesterday just did tests on straight cold tap water...

Sometimes hot water can effect the water cause its heated and out of a tank. but we will see. :)

 

4 hours ago, goldylove said:

 Freckle is currently in a shallow tub of water. tried to feed duckweed but wasn't interested. will hold it together with some peas later & see if i can trick him into eating it. 

Some fish it takes them time to eat it cause they haven't seen it before. leave it in there and soon the fish will get hungry enough to eat it :) 

4 hours ago, goldylove said:

How long should I leave him in the shallow tub for before it usually "works" if it's going to? i don't know if i want to leave him in there overnight as aerating the tub is quite loud & im not sure if i trust the heaters not to somehow melt through the plastic...

I would not have a heater in there. Goldfish do just fine without heaters. I haven't put on in my tank since I got the two I have. I would leave that fish in there for at least a week to see if it will help :) 

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I got my old 3 ft tank out of the shed & have set it up with 4 inches of water for Freckle where he will be comfortable for the next week or so. He's eating duckweed from my hand if i hold it with half a pea! there's more floating around in there he may or may not eat. i'll keep an eye on the ammonia etc, can add cycled filter medium to a small filter if needed.

I put him back in the big tank last night while i figured out what to do, he didn't seem quite as buoyant, still upside down but able to get sideways a bit easier & when he swam down he didn't float up as rapidly. Fingers crossed less pressure in the shallow water will help him out.

 

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Posted (edited)

Maybe it's just me and the poor quality photo... But the fish doesn't look all that healthy to me in general. His color is washed out, and he just doesn't look great. The user has 6 medium sized goldfish and one pleco in a tank that's about 100 gallons. 

He's over stocked and the tank has a low water level which suggests questionable maintenance. This makes sense because he says he only changes his water "every couple of weeks". The stocking level and water change schedule don't match. In addition, people who change water so infrequently don't tend to clean their filters regularly either, leading to more problems. There will likely be more issues if this is not resolved. 

Seeing as how the fish won't eat properly along with the other symptoms as well as the fish being sick recently, I believe the fish is more likely getting sick or still sick rather than just pure swim bladder dysfunction. He also stated that at least one other fish died from what appeared to be SBD. 

And I see one more thing to note. The user feeds Hikari. More specifically the user feeds Hikari wheat germ. These foods are known to increase the rate of floating and issues in fancy goldfish. The wheat germ formula is designed for cold outdoor temperatures and should never be fed in an indoor tank. We don't tend to recommend that brand here whatsoever. 

So it's my opinion that several things needs to be done for longer term success. The fish load ideally needs to be reduced by two at least. Water changes need to be increased to 50% minimum EVERY week. And the diet needs to be changed from Hikari. These are for starters. Seeing as how there is trace ammonia in the tank, it might also be advised to up the filtration. 

The shallow water method DOES NOT work if you take him out each night and put him back. He must STAY in the shallow water constantly if it stands a chance of working. It isn't a treatment like a dip. It's to take the pressure off him and help his swim bladder recover. When you put him directly back, it negates everything because the pressure instantly returns.

What you're doing right now is technically pointless. The use of Prime and very frequent water changes are necessary for the tubs. There's not really a way around it. It's a total pain but that's the only way it stands a chance. I honestly don't think it will cure this particular fish, but it's worth a try. 

Edited by mjfromga

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22 minutes ago, mjfromga said:
20 minutes ago, mjfromga said:

 

Maybe it's just me and the poor quality photo... But the fish doesn't look all that healthy to me in general. His color is washed out, and he just doesn't look great. The user has 6 medium sized goldfish and one pleco in a tank that's about 100 gallons. 

He's over stocked and the tank has a low water level which suggests questionable maintenance. This makes sense because he says he only changes his water "every couple of weeks". The stocking level and water change schedule don't match. In addition, people who change water so infrequently don't tend to clean their filters regularly either, leading to more problems. There will likely be more issues if this is not resolved. 

Seeing as how the fish won't eat properly along with the other symptoms as well as the fish being sick recently, I believe the fish is more likely getting sick or still sick rather than just pure swim bladder dysfunction. He also stated that at least one other fish died from what appeared to be SBD. 

And I see one more thing to note. The user feeds Hikari. More specifically the user feeds Hikari wheat germ. These foods are known to increase the rate of floating and issues in fancy goldfish. The wheat germ formula is designed for cold outdoor temperatures and should never be fed in an indoor tank. We don't tend to recommend that brand here whatsoever. 

So it's my opinion that several things needs to be done for longer term success. The fish load ideally needs to be reduced by two at least. Water changes need to be increased to 50% minimum EVERY week. And the diet needs to be changed from Hikari. These are for starters. Seeing as how there is trace ammonia in the tank, it might also be advised to up the filtration. 

The shallow water method DOES NOT work if you take him out each night and put him back. He must STAY in the shallow water constantly if it stands a chance of working. It isn't a treatment like a dip. It's to take the pressure off him and help his swim bladder recover. When you put him directly back, it negates everything because the pressure instantly returns.

What you're doing right now is technically pointless. The use of Prime and very frequent water changes are necessary for the tubs. There's not really a way around it. It's a total pain but that's the only way it stands a chance. I honestly don't think it will cure this particular fish, but it's worth a try. 

Yes, it's a poor quality photo.

The fish in question IS eating properly (peas & duckweed at the moment) & has a vigorous appetite as usual.

I have lost ONE other fish in 6 years, from what appeared to be SBD.

I know I don't have the 10 x filtration everyone on here strives for. 

I realise the shallow water method isn't like a dip, i do understand the concept of pressure & giving the swim bladder the chance to return to normal if possible by reducing said pressure. I returned the fish to the main tank until i created a better shallow set up for it which i have now done.

And I'm a she, not a "he". It's clearly stated on my profile. Thanks.

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Did not view the profile. Only tried to make relevant points towards the post. My bad. Good the fish is eating better now. Good luck with the fish. 

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Hope your Goldfish feels better.

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22 hours ago, goldylove said:

Yes, it's a poor quality photo.

The fish in question IS eating properly (peas & duckweed at the moment) & has a vigorous appetite as usual.

I have lost ONE other fish in 6 years, from what appeared to be SBD.

I know I don't have the 10 x filtration everyone on here strives for. 

I realise the shallow water method isn't like a dip, i do understand the concept of pressure & giving the swim bladder the chance to return to normal if possible by reducing said pressure. I returned the fish to the main tank until i created a better shallow set up for it which i have now done.

And I'm a she, not a "he". It's clearly stated on my profile. Thanks.

Well MJ is right. Not changing out 50% of the water and the Canister water out once a week can cause problems with this. If the tank is a tall tank it can cause even more problems for them. 

If it was me and my fish. I would make sure that one stays in the shallow tub for least 2 weeks eating nothing but duckweed. Also I would start changed the water in the tank and filter once week too. If you have gravel in the tank I would do a gravel siphon too, this is where all the gunk goes to, and gunk builds up in the filters too.

We are here to help :) 

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Let's look at the principles behind the shallow tank.   A goldfish that has any problem with swimming will swim better in shallow water.  It will swim most easily in water that is just deep enough to cover the dorsal fin.  Give it shallow water with plenty of surface area (at least 2 square feet per adult goldfish) and it will swim more.  

Why is this important?  The genetic deformity that characterizes short bodied fancy goldfish makes swim bladder disorders the "fancy goldfish disease."  After that, obesity seems the most common cause of swim bladder disorders.  One treats obesity with less food and more exercise.  Duckweed has fiber and lots of protein, but lacks the high nutritional carbohydrates and fat of fish food.  That makes it an ideal diet food for your fish.  The fish also has to put out an effort to get it's mouth to the surface to grab the duckweed -- more exercise.  

The shallower the water and the greater the surface area the more oxygen in the water, and this contributes to fish health.  

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Definitely keep buffering your water, given the hardness.  What were the readings after the bucket test?  You didn’t say, but we may be able to recommend some supplements to help.

 

Please listen to the water change and surface area advice.  Remember that just because the water doesn’t have a lot of waste in it, it doesn’t mean the redox potential is where it should be to keep the fish healthy, especially in a system with less hardness or lower pH.

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html

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