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ClinicaTerraLTD

Just Lost Our Beloved "Marcus"...Gotta Start Over (Again)

61 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, ClinicaTerraLTD said:
5 hours ago, ClinicaTerraLTD said:

Unfortunately, I just have to make this tank work right now, so if you're saying it could possibly harm the fish, I may have no choice but to keep tropicals in here rather than goldies because I don't want to be cruel; I would appreciate you letting me know what bigger sizes would be better. Thank you. 

 

5 hours ago, ClinicaTerraLTD said:

Why has no one addressed these specific things with me in all the time I've asked about them here? I feel like I'm finally getting to some answers now...

Don't know :o Im not saying it will hurt them just that its harder for them to swim to the top of the tank. I had a 55 gallon tank for the longest time and didn't have issues with floating fish. I did have issues with dropies but that's before I knew about keeping my HOB cleaned (cleaning the water out) every time with a water change. Also not having any ornaments or much gravel in the tank. All of that helped me out. 

5 hours ago, ClinicaTerraLTD said:

When you say "water chemistry," what do you mean exactly -- the tank falling out of a cycle? Because once my tanks have cycled, they have ALWAYS remained spot on with parameters, and I do 50% water changes WEEKLY and religiously, ALWAYS using Prime as a conditioner...I don't understand why it would take six or so years under good conditions for a fish to suddenly swell up and die. 

Im talking about the ph, kh, nitrites, nitrates and such. Water will change during the year. Where Im at in the Northwest, once it starts to rain a lot my ph will go down a bit and my chlorine will go up to in the summer times. Im just wondering other things like that might be effecting you. I don't know as I don't know your general location or your tap water readings.

5 hours ago, ClinicaTerraLTD said:

As far as where I get them, this is something I have been debating too -- we purchased Marcus from a brand-new Petco near us (was open one day or so) and we thought that maybe we got "good stock" because the fish were all "fresh" for lack of a better term; all the other fish we ever purchased came from a local PetSmart (don't have ANY privately-owned aquarium shops near us) and they all died much quicker than Marcus (in other words, we had him the longest). 

Where the two stocks ever mixed? Where they ever QTed? 

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1 hour ago, koko said:

Don't know

:o Im not saying it will hurt them just that its harder for them to swim to the top of the tank. I had a 55 gallon tank for the longest time and didn't have issues with floating fish. I did have issues with dropies but that's before I knew about keeping my HOB cleaned (cleaning the water out) every time with a water change. Also not having any ornaments or much gravel in the tank. All of that helped me out.

You're supposed to clean all the water out of the FILTER chambers with EVERY water change? That's news to me; I merely prime my AquaClear 110 back up (the Aqueon primes itself) when I plug everything back in after a change...as for the ornaments and gravel, I've been advised about this, but I just don't understand the reasoning behind it (the ornament argument, at least) -- is it because debris can become trapped under them, allowing them to rot? 

Because I have since become aware of the substrate issue, I use a lot less on the bottom of my tank; I will one day get around to switching it out for sand.

1 hour ago, koko said:

Im talking about the ph, kh, nitrites, nitrates and such. Water will change during the year. Where Im at in the Northwest, once it starts to rain a lot my ph will go down a bit and my chlorine will go up to in the summer times. Im just wondering other things like that might be effecting you. I don't know as I don't know your general location or your tap water readings.

Interesting; I'm located in the Southwest United States, and our water is ridiculously hard, but we have a softener unit connected to our home which is supposed to help. If the water chemistry changes this drastically to alter the health of the fish, what can be done about it?

Where the two stocks ever mixed? Where they ever QTed?

This last purchase, the black/gold fantail calico, was not mixed with any other fish from any other store; he lived his life alone in this 60 gallon and seemed happy as a clam...as I said, we had him for SIX or so years before he became sick, and he grew in that time, with his tails developing and even changing a stunning black-striped color...this is why I'm suspecting we got a "fresher" stock from the new Petco we got him from...but this is pure speculation...

 

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14 hours ago, ClinicaTerraLTD said:

You're supposed to clean all the water out of the FILTER chambers with EVERY water change?

Yes you really should. That is the same water that is going into the tank. So it would make since to dump it out too while you're changing the tank water :) 

14 hours ago, ClinicaTerraLTD said:

That's news to me; I merely prime my AquaClear 110 back up (the Aqueon primes itself) when I plug everything back in after a change...as for the ornaments and gravel, I've been advised about this, but I just don't understand the reasoning behind it (the ornament argument, at least) -- is it because debris can become trapped under them, allowing them to rot? 

:bingo: It will make stagnate water under anything that the water can't move through. This is any gravel should only be in a small amount on the ground. Anything that is hollow will do that and anything that is to thick like gravel or rocks can do this too. 

14 hours ago, ClinicaTerraLTD said:

Because I have since become aware of the substrate issue, I use a lot less on the bottom of my tank; I will one day get around to switching it out for sand.

 

 

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15 hours ago, ClinicaTerraLTD said:

Interesting; I'm located in the Southwest United States, and our water is ridiculously hard, but we have a softener unit connected to our home which is supposed to help. If the water chemistry changes this drastically to alter the health of the fish, what can be done about it?

I lived in Santa Barbara, CA and I had hard water too. I never used soft water on them Just the tap water. :) 

What I was talking about is to test the tap water at least every other water change to make sure that the water is okay. a lot of ppl just assume it will stay the same all the time and it can change on you. 

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27 minutes ago, koko said:
Quote

Yes you really should. That is the same water that is going into the tank. So it would make since to dump it out too while you're changing the tank water

:)

But wouldn't that "old" water just flow into the tank, be diluted and be eventually sucked up by the filters again anyway?

At any rate, would this have killed my goldfish over time, like over a period of six years?

:bingo:

Quote

It will make stagnate water under anything that the water can't move through. This is any gravel should only be in a small amount on the ground. Anything that is hollow will do that and anything that is to thick like gravel or rocks can do this too.

I see; well, we plan on getting just one big centerpiece for our next setup, so this will be easy enough to remove from time to time (though plants are always a different issue).

 

 

Edited by ClinicaTerraLTD

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23 minutes ago, koko said:

I lived in Santa Barbara, CA and I had hard water too. I never used soft water on them Just the tap water.

:)

So you know what I'm talking about with the hard water; we had a softener installed in the house, so the water is softened before returning to our faucets...

What I was talking about is to test the tap water at least every other water change to make sure that the water is okay. a lot of ppl just assume it will stay the same all the time and it can change on you.

But even if the water changes chemically, what can be done about it? 

 

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5 hours ago, ClinicaTerraLTD said:

But wouldn't that "old" water just flow into the tank, be diluted and be eventually sucked up by the filters again anyway?

At any rate, would this have killed my goldfish over time, like over a period of six years?

yeah but why would you want the old water to go back. You want to get rid of the old water, it has waste and slim coat in it. Needs to be removed, your filters are there to polish the water and be the place where the bio bugs live. :)

6 year old fish is pretty old in a tank. My oldest was 9 years old. 

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5 hours ago, ClinicaTerraLTD said:

So you know what I'm talking about with the hard water; we had a softener installed in the house, so the water is softened before returning to our faucets

yes I do, I never used a water softener for my fish when I lived down there and my fish where fine :)

 

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5 hours ago, ClinicaTerraLTD said:

But even if the water changes chemically, what can be done about it? 

Well there are things to keep the ph and Kh stable, if there is an high amount of ammonia you would use more prime. Things like that can help.

My water gets a lower ph in the rainy season so I make sure I have a wonder shell in my tank. I don't get ammonia in my water but I get a lot of chlorine in my water. Some ppl have nitrates in there water and have to use a buffer. What Im saying is you have to test your tap water once in awhile and adjust accordingly if you need to :) 

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On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 4:15 PM, koko said:

yeah but why would you want the old water to go back. You want to get rid of the old water, it has waste and slim coat in it. Needs to be removed, your filters are there to polish the water and be the place where the bio bugs live.

:)

Well, with the AquaClear, I figured the water from THAT filter is drained, pretty much, anyway when the level reaches a certain point near the intake tube, and fresh water is being put in to prime it, so I didn't think to dump any water; the Aqueon filter is another story, as that keeps water in the chamber, I believe, being that it's self-priming. Either way, I'll keep this in mind next time. 

6 year old fish is pretty old in a tank. My oldest was 9 years old. 

See, this is getting into the longevity factor that I'm always going back to and that is always confusing to me because of the myriad of cross-section replies I get to this question...some sites say there "should be no reason why" a goldfish if properly cared for shouldn't live for like 20 years in captivity (i.e. a nice sized tank)...others claim a typical pet shop fish should live five to six years...in general, which is it? Are you saying Marcus pretty much lived a nice life at six?

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 4:19 PM, koko said:

Well there are things to keep the ph and Kh stable, if there is an high amount of ammonia you would use more prime. Things like that can help.

I overdosed on Prime almost with every water change (when I say "overdosed" I mean put a bit more in that was called for based on a 60 gallon) to "prepare" for things like this, so I thought I was okay on that front...

 

 

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On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 4:16 PM, koko said:

yes I do, I never used a water softener for my fish when I lived down there and my fish where fine :)

 

We put in the softener mainly for our showers to feel better and to help reduce the staining/scarring on surfaces (which didn't turn out too well; on my aquarium and filter pieces alone, there is hard water staining and scarring that has permanently damaged the plastic elements such as the light hood and filter boxes). 

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Just chiming in on the longevity issue. I see A LOT of places claiming that there is no reason why a goldie shouldn't live 10+ years if cared for properly.

However I haven't had any goldfish live for 10 years, even with proper tank setup and filtration, The past couple of years I lost all my my original goldies that were between 5-8 years old when they died. They all ended up with dropsy that didn't respond to any medication

 

I also rarely see people actually have a goldfish live 10+ years, especially in a tank. It happens, but it doesn't seem to happen often, especially with fancies. 

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I have had comets live for 20 years in a massive pond but that is a far cry from a fancy in an aquarium. I have 5 out of 7 that reached 15 years and my last oldest lived to be 21 years old.

 

Also when I say massive pond it is a 350,000+ gallon natural spring fed pond.

 

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, FishyMandy said:

Just chiming in on the longevity issue. I see A LOT of places claiming that there is no reason why a goldie shouldn't live 10+ years if cared for properly.

However I haven't had any goldfish live for 10 years, even with proper tank setup and filtration, The past couple of years I lost all my my original goldies that were between 5-8 years old when they died. They all ended up with dropsy that didn't respond to any medication

 

I also rarely see people actually have a goldfish live 10+ years, especially in a tank. It happens, but it doesn't seem to happen often, especially with fancies. 

Thanks for your input here, Mandy; why is it that they don't live that long in aquariums? is it just the nature of the captivity?

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10 minutes ago, Daniel E. said:

I have had comets live for 20 years in a massive pond but that is a far cry from a fancy in an aquarium.[/quote]

But why is that?

Quote

I have 5 out of 7 that reached 15 years and my last oldest lived to be 21 years old.

Your comets, you mean?

 

 

 

 

 

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Well fancies seem to have more health problems as they get older in my opinion.
Tanks also do not have the diversity of food and other biological factors that I believe help to produce long lived fish. Cold water like my pond (never much above 60°F and in the winter it will freeze over) slows down the metabolism and thus can lengthen the life span. Goldfish evolved to be in a pond like environment and filter feed through mud and algae. Sometimes I think we keep our tanks too clean so when a bacteria becomes present the fish have a low immune response and it can be more fatal.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying 'stop cleaning your thanks' I'm just giving my opinion as to why pond fish seem to be healthier and live longer.

Oh and yes I was talking about my comets. :)

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My comets also seem to live longer and with less health problems than my fancies. My oldest tank fish was an 8.5 yr old comet. My ponds have only been running for a couple of years and they aren't MASSIVE (160g and 450g), but I have had fewer problems with the fish in there. I think the sunlight and natural food (bugs, algae) really help. 

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2 hours ago, Daniel E. said:

Well fancies seem to have more health problems as they get older in my opinion.
Tanks also do not have the diversity of food and other biological factors that I believe help to produce long lived fish. Cold water like my pond (never much above 60°F and in the winter it will freeze over) slows down the metabolism and thus can lengthen the life span. Goldfish evolved to be in a pond like environment and filter feed through mud and algae. Sometimes I think we keep our tanks too clean so when a bacteria becomes present the fish have a low immune response and it can be more fatal.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying 'stop cleaning your thanks' I'm just giving my opinion as to why pond fish seem to be healthier and live longer.

Oh and yes I was talking about my comets. :)

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk
 

This is why I don't have a heater in mine anymore. I think the heaters do mess them up, meaning making them have a higher metabolism and making them older faster. Cleaning filters I think is good as tank fish pollute the water faster than a ponds do. Just my thought on things. Also Fancy fish are  compacted and  I think they have more swim issues bing in tall tanks rather short tanks. I have noticed since my 40B  they seem a lot happier than in there 36 bow which was a tall tank.

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So what I'm gathering from this is that keeping store-bought fancy goldies is an exercise that will, on average, yield ideal life spans that usually don't exceed 10 years...

So Marcus was in and around average at six or so years in our aquarium...yes?

Here's the thing that upsets me so: I see these pet shops with those massive fancy tailed goldies that must be up there in age, and I don't understand why I can't raise them in MY tanks to be/get so large...they die when they reach a certain size, growing beyond their fry years but never really getting to those massive ones you see in some shops...

Why is this? How do they grow so large elsewhere? 

Edited by ClinicaTerraLTD

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So what I'm gathering from this is that keeping store-bought fancy goldies is an exercise that will, on average, yield ideal life spans that usually don't exceed 10 years...
So Marcus was in and around average at six or so years in our aquarium...yes?
Here's the thing that upsets me so: I see these pet shops with those massive fancy tailed goldies that must be up there in age, and I don't understand why I can't raise them in MY tanks to be/get so large...they die when they reach a certain size, growing beyond their fry years but never really getting to those massive ones you see in some shops...
Why is this? How do they grow so large elsewhere? 
The size of the fish really has little to do with age. You can have a 10 year old fish that is 3" and a 3 year old that is 10".
To get big fish you need three things. Space, genetics, and quality food.
For example in my pond I have seen fish get over 6" in two years. (Single tales) then I've also had fish in a tank that long and be half the size.

I also have a smaller 3000 gallon pond that I threw a bunch of koi and goldfish in, to grow them big enough that the bluegill in the big pond won't eat them. I have 2 koi still in there that may be 8-10" that I could not catch. Their brothers and sisters I moved are 14"+ in the same time. I believe it is because the big pond has more natural food and a lot more water. Good water quality is a must for optimal growth.

I hope this helps a little.

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Goldfish don't seem to have a problem with hard water.  What GH do you have?  Many people claim that softened water isn't good for goldfish, but I've seen no experimental evidence to support that.  You might consider mixing softened and unsoftened water if you worry about this.

Frankly, unless the fish receive treatment that qualifies as abuse, quality of care has little to do with longevity.  Look up the life histories of goldfish that have set records for longevity.  Every one I have found spent at least it's first decade in a two gallon fish bowl, often with a friend.  After that, it moved to a 10 gallon tank with a filter.

I don't think long-bodied goldfish do much better in a pond than in an aquarium, although they do appear happier and healthier in a pond.  However, I observe greatly improved survival rates of fancies in ponds as compared to aquariums.  

 

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All my fish are outside now as a tank began to annoy me and my fish collection began to grow too much. They're all fancies except one silly comet. They're definitely doing better out there. A few are beginning to get a bit big as well. Winter is kicking some serious BUTT this year but I've decided to leave them out and see who is still left come spring. Most of them should make it.

And not all fish grow big. Some are shrimp. When we start focusing on how big our fish are, I think we often lose perspective on how healthy they are. Gorging them with food and trying to grow them big really quickly doesn't seem like a good idea. Do we do that with our children? Our dogs? Nope! 

All that happens when you feed fancies a lot is they turn upside down and get obese. When they live outside, you don't have to feed as much. Jennie from Solid Gold said that 3.5 years is a "pretty good if we are being generous" lifespan for a fancy goldfish.

Let's just say that I hope I can do better than her idea of "pretty good" with my fish. I think that lifespan is short and if I can't do better than that with many of my fish, I will pull out of fancy goldfish and call myself a failure. These are descendants of Carp. 3.5 years? No way. 

I like the look and challenge of fancies. Much more appealing to me than regular goldfish. But to each his own. Want tougher and easier to care for fish? Definitely get a regular goldfish. I got one this year and she's already outgrown EVERYONE else and is tough as nails. 

 

Edited by mjfromga

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On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 7:34 PM, Daniel E. said:

The size of the fish really has little to do with age. You can have a 10 year old fish that is 3" and a 3 year old that is 10".

Okay; but I'm constantly wondering why mine never grow all that large -- I mean, they GROW, definitely from their fry-esque stages when we usually get them, but not to be those massive egg-shaped specimens you see around...


To get big fish you need three things. Space, genetics, and quality food.

I would have thought that one calico in a 60 gallon all by himself would have taken care of the space element. The genetics I can't account for, and the food was always Omega One flakes and cooked peas.


For example in my pond I have seen fish get over 6" in two years. (Single tales) then I've also had fish in a tank that long and be half the size.



I also have a smaller 3000 gallon pond that I threw a bunch of koi and goldfish in, to grow them big enough that the bluegill in the big pond won't eat them. I have 2 koi still in there that may be 8-10" that I could not catch. Their brothers and sisters I moved are 14"+ in the same time. I believe it is because the big pond has more natural food and a lot more water. Good water quality is a must for optimal growth.

I hope this helps a little.

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I'd love to see some pics of your ponds, Daniel; you guys seem seriously into the hobby.
 

 

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On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 8:33 PM, shakaho said:

Goldfish don't seem to have a problem with hard water.

So I've heard; still, the water softener was installed in our home to, as I said, make the showers feel better on the skin. I can't believe the hardness/softness had anything to do with the multiple deaths we've experienced since setting up our last tank that ended up cracking and flooding the house.

What GH do you have?  Many people claim that softened water isn't good for goldfish, but I've seen no experimental evidence to support that.  You might consider mixing softened and unsoftened water if you worry about this.

GH?

Frankly, unless the fish receive treatment that qualifies as abuse, quality of care has little to do with longevity.  Look up the life histories of goldfish that have set records for longevity.  Every one I have found spent at least it's first decade in a two gallon fish bowl, often with a friend.  After that, it moved to a 10 gallon tank with a filter.

That seems contrary to everything I have read -- most "tales" of this type tend to have goldfish being seriously stunted by being placed in bowls.

Secondly, if quality treatment isn't netting longevity, what are we doing it for? Just quality of life? I want them to experience long AND happy lives in my tank(s)...

I don't think long-bodied goldfish do much better in a pond than in an aquarium, although they do appear happier and healthier in a pond.  However, I observe greatly improved survival rates of fancies in ponds as compared to aquariums. 

...as seems to be the consensus...

 

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 8:33 PM, shakaho said:

 

 

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