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Mighty

Lethargic fish with rapid gill movement

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  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tank) 10-20ppm (before water change)
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tap) 5ppm or so
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 8.2
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 8
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops
      • * Water temperature? 76-78f
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 55 gallons, running for.. maybe 6 months.
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aquaclear 70, two big sponge filters
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? weekly, at least 75%
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? yesterday, only left enough water for their dorsal to stand.
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 4 fish, mostly about 25 grams. one fish 50 grams.
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Pellets a few times a day but fasting now for 1 day,
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? I moved one swim-challenged fish to the tank from QT about a week ago. She has no symptoms besides being sinky.
  • * Any medications added to the tank? Salt .1% because I scraped them all for viewing slime under microscope. I didn't find anything weird.
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank.Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. They had all gone through a quick prazi treatment just a few months ago. The swim challenged one had hers separate.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? N/A 
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Lethargy, floating near the surface (not gulping), sometimes sitting on the bottom with rapid gill movement on one side at a time. Slime coat looks normal.. the fins are droopy when they sit but not clamped. Hard to be sure if this is new, but they all have slight gill curling at the very edges.. I peeked under the gill plates and they look fine.. nice meaty red. Still excited about food. One fish in the tank laid some eggs a couple days ago. She is the most lethargic, sort of floats on her side but she can swim normally when she wants to. Everyone feels firm in the belly.

Could they have eaten too much with the eggs+normal meals? The change started just after that. The eggs are already gone but no improvement in behavior. It just seems so sudden. :no: I was hoping to get some opinions before I wait and see if they are just constipated or something. Feel like I post here really often.. Appreciate you guys so much!!

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Thank you for filling out the form.  Could you post some pictures of the fish?  Include a full tank view.

I think we should start with a "not quick" prazi treatment -- at least two weeks for all fish.  Keep them at 0.1% salt which eases breathing.  

What kind of pellets do you feed?  How much do you feed at a time?  

Would you please list the fish individually,-- by name if you name them or just number them 1-4 -- with their varieties,  the symptoms that they have, size, and how long you have had them. 

Would you try feeding them duckweed (which you can purchase online)?  This usually clears the gut and eliminates that as a cause of floatiness.

Your maintenance schedule looks very good.  How often do you clean the filters and how do you clean them?

Do you have a substrate in the tank?  If so, what kind and how deep?

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OneOne (additional) Butterfly telescope - The only female as far as I know. She laid the eggs and had the worst symptoms with floating on her side at the surface. She is 22 grams / 3 ish inches.

Two Butterfly telescope - Mostly floats at the surface but sometimes sits on the bottom and breathes heavily. 27grams / 3 ish inches.

ThreeThree (gif) Butterfly telescope - This WAS my healthiest and strongest fish but lately sits on the bottom and breathes heavy like in the gif. 49 grams / 4 ish inches.

Four Oranda - No new symptoms on this one. She can't float at all so she just sits on the bottom all the time. About 3.5 inches.

Full tank

I've had the butterfly telescopes for only 7 months. The oranda isn't new, but she was living in my mom's 125gallon until a couple months ago. I moved her to my bare 20 gallon in an attempt to fix her swim bladder issues but it never got better. She's only been with my butterflies for about a week.

I was feeding them like 3 pinches of New life spectrum Thera A sinking pellets. I did this at least 3 times a day, sometimes more. Today is day 2 of the fasting.

I don't have duckweed but I could order it on ebay.. Will peas work? I already have those.

I squeeze the filter media and sponges out real good in a few buckets of tank water every other week.

There has never been substrate, just algae on the floor.

 

They're looking pretty good today. They've picked the spawning behavior back up which seems like a good sign, right? Now I'm kind of feeling like I jumped the gun on posting but I don't see how they could ALL have such bad constipation signs at the same time. My other goldfish tanks eat the same food just as often and they are completely normal... The female is pretty small so she didn't lay a whole lot of eggs and it took them all day to eat them all.

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Well they've gone back to being unhappy and just hanging out at the surface. Here's another clip. It looks like he is favoring one gill at a time? I see this in each of them when they are breathing hard like that.

Gfy link

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Hope they feel better!!!!

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I like the nice green algae on the tank walls and floor.  

Baffling situation.  It looks like a toxic reaction.  Can you think of anything that might have contaminated the tank?  You might check with the water company to see if anything changed in the water chemistry recently.    

The fish appear to have gill damage.  If that comes from flukes the prazi should improve the situation.  Is there any possibility of a water change without Prime?  

Could you add more aeration?  I'd love to see these fish in really shallow water like in an underbed storage box.  This maximizes dissolved oxygen and encourages activity.

Peas are no substitute for duckweed.

 

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Actually now that you mention it, the plastic plant on the right is new. I added it June 14th so a little before they first started showing symptoms. It was listed on ebay as "aquarium safe", and I have some from the same vendor in my other tanks without symptoms... But that is all I can think of. I am sure I used Prime each time. There isn't anything in this aquarium that I do differently from my other tanks.

I have 2 twenty gallon tanks sitting around.. I could fill them halfway and put two in each with as many bubblers as I can find.. maybe 2 or 3 for each. What would the prazi schedule look like with daily water changes? There is no filter on these tanks.

I will order some duckweed and change the water again without the plants today.. there is an added complication where i'll be leaving town this weekend until the 29th. Instead of the twenty gallon tanks, I think it may be easier to just add more bubblers to the main tank and try to plan it so they get 1 full prazi round before I leave, and then another round for the week I am gone. And just hope for the best for when I return... What do you think?

Edited by Mighty

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I'm with Shakaho on this.  Remove the plant, duckweed is fantastic, and a good and thorough praziquantel treatment are the places I'd start.  I'm sorry they're so under the weather and hopefully we can get everyone to rights quickly.  You're in great hands :)

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5 hours ago, DawnMichele said:

Hope they feel better!!!!

Thank you!! I hope so too

2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

I'm with Shakaho on this.  Remove the plant, duckweed is fantastic, and a good and thorough praziquantel treatment are the places I'd start.  I'm sorry they're so under the weather and hopefully we can get everyone to rights quickly.  You're in great hands :)

Thank you! This forum is great for advice because there is agreement between users.. It is so much harder to treat a sick fish with everyone's different opinion and advice and you don't know who to trust.

 

I went ahead and removed the plants and changed all the water and added .1% salt and prazi powder in the main tank. I added an airstone so there are no still areas on the surface. They look good for now. Should I keep fasting until the duckweed arrives? It will probably be a few days.

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I wouldn't fast at all.  Feed peas while you wait.  Green poop will tell you the digestive system is working.

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Good thinking Sharon. I was thinking the same. I had a fake plant like that and when I flipped it over and looked at the rock holding it. It had a hole where they stuck the plant in problem with mine you could see the metal in the plant and it was leaching metal in my tank.... :o

 

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Well they are looking better for sure, still a lot of aimless/lethargic drifting though. Gills and digestive system seem to be OK. Should I keep going with the prazi and .1% salt?

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Glad they are doing better.  :thumbup2:

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2 hours ago, Mighty said:

Well they are looking better for sure, still a lot of aimless/lethargic drifting though. Gills and digestive system seem to be OK. Should I keep going with the prazi and .1% salt?

I would for another week :)

How green is the water? Can we have some photos :please 

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Ok will do! The water itself is clear unfortunately. It just looks extra green because my bedroom walls are green. The algae on the floor and walls is new though! Used to only get brown. :goldfish:

 

AZAiON5.jpg

IRDrHEI.jpg

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This is the same tank without any algae and different fish from a while back. The walls make for a nice illusion at least :whistleUU8Ny7P.jpg

Edited by Mighty

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One more question when was the last time you rinsed the sponge filter? 

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1 hour ago, koko said:

One more question when was the last time you rinsed the sponge filter? 

I rinse them at least every other week, so I believe it was the week before last, so the the next WC (tomorrow) I'll do it again.

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You said you scraped their slime coat and examined it under a microscope. Did you also do a gill scope? If you turn up nothing on such a scope, I can't see Prazi being effective. It's uncommon to see such green in such a tank and you said it's new as well as the symptoms. There might be an oxygen issue or maybe a toxin. You said their gills are moving unnaturally rapidly and they seem listless. Also you said it's all of them. Flukes wouldn't likely cause a sudden onset of these symptoms. I think there's something else we may be missing. 

Edited by mjfromga

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26 minutes ago, mjfromga said:

You said you scraped their slime coat and examined it under a microscope. Did you also do a gill scope? If you turn up nothing on such a scope, I can't see Prazi being effective. It's uncommon to see such green in such a tank and you said it's new as well as the symptoms. There might be an oxygen issue or maybe a toxin. You said their gills are moving unnaturally rapidly and they seem listless. Also you said it's all of them. Flukes wouldn't likely cause a sudden onset of these symptoms. I think there's something else we may be missing. 

I did my best on the gill scope but my sister didn't see anything (it is her microscope, I don't know how to use it) from the pictures of common fish bugs. The plastic plant appeared to be the problem, It's been out for a while now, but could my equipment be contaminated? The tank seals maybe? They definitely look better since I took it out but not 100%. I'm not seeing the rapid gill movement anymore, just a little listless behavior. Maybe still healing?  I wasn't too worried about the green algae.. It started to show up when I was out of town for a week and the light was left on the whole time.

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Also I think it might be worth mentioning that I held onto about 50 fry stuck to the nontoxic plant and moved one (maybe contaminated) sponge filter with them into a 20 gallon and they look normal as far as I can tell. I imagine they would be more sensitive if something was still poisoning my 55 gallon. I dunno.

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I think the next big step is doing 100% water changes for a few water changes. I would also dump the water out of the HOB too. Just to make sure there isn't any more toxic stuff in there :) 

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3 hours ago, koko said:

I think the next big step is doing 100% water changes for a few water changes. I would also dump the water out of the HOB too. Just to make sure there isn't any more toxic stuff in there :) 

Will do thanks :)

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