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run.without.raincoats

Ryukin with mystery illness

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  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0.25-0.5 ppm
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tank) 0 ppm
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0 ppm
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) pH 7, GH/KH unknown but pH is stable
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API master kit
      • * Water temperature? 68-70 F
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? Holds roughly 25 gallons, running about a month
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? An Aquaclear 70 and a Hydro V sponge rated for 125 gallons
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? As needed to keep parameters under control, every 2 days or so
      • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 90% last night
      • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 ryukin, about 5 inches, big girl!
      • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Seachem Prime, double dosed for ammonia detox. Tetra Safestart 
      • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Repashy soilent green as staple, supplemented with veggies and occasional bloodworms
      • * Any new fish added to the tank? No
      • * Any medications added to the tank? See below
      • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank.Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
      • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
      • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

 

Hello! This lovely lady is Pumpkin, and she's been struggling with some baffling health issues for a few months. We're at the end of our rope and would appreciate anyone's input on what might be going on. I'm a mod on the TGT forum posting this on behalf of Pumpkin's owner, Buzz, since she doesn't have an account here. I apologize if there's ever been some bad blood between members from our forum and this one but Pumpkin is such a deeply loved little fish and we just want to do anything we can to help her feel better.

 

 

This is going to be long, but I'm including as much detail as I can to make sure you have a full picture.

 

Background: up until recently she's been in a 20 gallon tank, bare bottom since she likes to snack on substrate. Minimal decor, she flails around and injures herself on most things. Just a few softer fake plants and a bunch of glass marbles to push around. She was fluked in August 2016 with PraziPro and metroplex food. She's 2-3 years old and has been very healthy and strong up until this winter.

 

The tank experienced a cycle crash after a long power outage in November so Buzz had been doing extra water changes while it re-cycled. She fell behind on changes due to work and on Dec 2nd 2016 she posted these pictures.

 

http://i.imgur.com/GGhS2Ix.jpg

http://imgur.com/L0kr3Kb

 

Pumpkin was shedding slime and it had completely covered her eyes. Other vague symptoms including lethargy, stringy poo, a few small white lumps, and a little red streaking in the tail. Ammonia was around 1 ppm but dropped to 0.25 ppm after an emergency water change. We suggest adding some aquarium salt, and assumed it was just a reaction to water quality. 

By Dec 5th she was much better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dr0brXjLe8 (she just ate here and is chewing)

 

Dec 7th she was starting to go downhill again. Clamping, bottom sitting, labored breathing, slime on eyes returned, odd erratic swimming. Salt kept at .2% and extra prime dosed to help with ammonia along with water changes. Remains fairly stable for a few more days

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxTeGE75tBM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th5PsxNfAC8

 

Dec 12th she nosedived rapidly over a period of hours. Clamped, lethargic, color faded, shedding a lot of slime, gasping badly even with aeration. Begins listing to the side and occasionally stops breathing. We didn't expect her to make it through the night. 10 gallon QT tank dosed with triple sulfa and a 2x dose of API general cure (for the metronidazole, Buzz didn't have metroplex on hand). Ammonia and nitrite were at 0.25 ppm, water changes and prime keeping it below toxic levels. No nitrate to speak of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CJZVLH-7qg (This is early in the day before her really bad dip, but I don't have any other pics or videos of her until the next day)

 

Incredibly, she survived! She moves occasionally in the morning, still heavily clamped, tail very red, begins losing some of the excess slime and looking a little less dire. Her appetite isn't as voracious as usual but she takes some bloodworms given with tweezers. We ask Buzz to check her gills due to the heavy breathing, they're normal solid red. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Tnng9MtSPI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5SwYOcJmuc

 

She improves over the next few days, fins raise, blood streaking fades, body color deepens, a little black appears on her tail where some ammonia burns have begun to heal. She's lost a few grams during the ordeal but not excessively.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFExEZsdku8

 

On Dec 16th the metroplex arrives and the General cure is replaced with the metro mixed into repashy gel. By the end of the course of sulfa and metro she's doing much better. We're still puzzled as to what could have hit that hard and fast, but Pumpkin is back to her boisterous hungry self and we figure it's over. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jklnPf9qOG4

 

Jan 7th Buzz posts again, this time it's her male betta (in a separate tank) showing almost identical symptoms to what Pumpkin had a few weeks before. Clamping, loss of color, blood streaks in fins, listing to the side, lethargy, practically on death's door. He spontaneously recovers a few days later without medication. Before and during his illness:

http://imgur.com/ZjK834f

http://imgur.com/7Iy7x1h

 

We wonder if it's something in the water at this point given the fact that her other fish has come down with the same mystery illness. We encourage Buzz to get her water professionally tested, but she is a minor and her parents are not willing to do it and she can't afford it herself. 

 

For a while Pumpkin levels out. She's moved out of QT, remains listless and has some slight swim bladder issues with staying upright. She is switched to repashy only and taken off the Omega One pellets she had been fed before, hoping to nip the SB problem in the bud. The ammonia levels don't rise as quickly anymore but Buzz is vigilant with water changes and testing anyway. Pumpkin still has stringy poop and clamps slightly. She's a smart fish and we wonder if boredom in her empty tank might be contributing to her stress so we work on some enrichment ideas. Unfortunately she manages to injure herself on most everything we try so Buzz has to remove most of it. 

 

Buzz hopes a tank upgrade might make her more comfortable and gets ahold of a very strange 36 gallon semicircle tank used from a neighbor. Pumpkin begins to float nosedown almost immediately in the new tank, which is very tall, so she's moved back to her 20 asap. 

http://imgur.com/a/Tzcmk

http://imgur.com/a/EoCxS

 

The next week she gets a nice standard 29 gal, and looks much happier in it. She moves in on Jan 21st 

http://imgur.com/a/tKmEo


The cycle process is ongoing, ammonia is still elevated. Stays steady around 0.5 ppm with occasional spikes to 1 ppm. Prime dosed religiously. Pumpkin struggles with balance and yawns occasionally. 

 

Jan 31st Buzz posts pictures of a suspect reddish patch with a tiny open sore on her peduncle. Looks like the early stage of a small ulcer. She also has multiple small injuries and knocks as though she had been flashing, filter intake is padded just in case she's hurting herself on it. That plus the yawning possibly point to flukes, given she hasn't been treated for them since August and her immune system has taken a hit lately.

http://imgur.com/a/BssbZ

 

On Feb 2nd the tank is dosed with Prazipro. On the 3rd, kanaplex is added for the sore which has gotten worse

http://imgur.com/a/RVJM3

 

Mistakenly removed the Kanaplex on Feb 5th after only 3 days when she should have finished out the full course.

We realize the mistake on Feb 9th when Pumpkin's infection had progressed to a bright red lump and dark bloody tail. Carbon is used to remove the prazi, and the tank is then dosed with Kanaplex and sulfa together. We watch carefully for any signs of kidney stress but thankfully see none. 

http://imgur.com/a/u1pCH

http://imgur.com/a/cSk6L

 

The redness reduces slowly

http://imgur.com/a/ldElN

http://imgur.com/a/sXTrr

http://imgur.com/a/X94Ob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOO-9WDTnJo

 

Feb 15th she is no longer clamped and is swimming normally again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IZ5R-Z99Yw

 

On Feb 19th she is doing better than she has in quite a while. She's less lethargic and more inquisitive and friendly again. The kana and sulfa courses are finished, Buzz does a 75% wc but does not fully remove it. As soon as I realize I tell her to do a full change so as not to leave the non-therapeutic dose in. Pumpkin begins clamping heavily again.

 

Saturday (the 25th) she reported a small amount of slime on her eyes again. We hold off on treatment, she's been on a lot of meds lately and we don't want to do anything more to stress her system. Salt is added at .1% but nothing else.

http://imgur.com/lreC3UN

 

And finally today she's started back into the pattern from December, bottom sitting, shedding heavy slime, clamped, tilting sideways. We had Buzz remove the marbles as well, in case they might be leaching something. The parameters at the top of the thread are as of this morning.

 

We're stumped and desperate to help her. I'm hoping that someone here may have seen something like this before. I've spent several late nights combing through all the resources I have and just haven't been able to tie things together. I feel like there has to be a connection between all of this, I just can't find it. A water contaminant is still our best theory but without more comprehensive testing we might not be able to confirm it. Pumpkin is a strong girl but we don't know if she has the strength to keep pushing through much longer. We all absolutely adore her and love her like she's our own, it would be devastating to lose her after all she's gone through

- Anna

 

 

 

 

 

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Very nice post I want to thank you :)

One thing I need you to do is test the PH out of the tap and the tank hun. Ph crashes can burn a fish so I would like you to get that tested :)

 

The other question is do you have Prazi and Metro?  and Aquaruim salt or plan Mortan's salt? 

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Thank you for the reply!

Tank and tap pH are both 7 currently, she says the tap sometimes rises to around 8 after a rainstorm

And yes she has prazi, metro, and salt on hand. 

Edited by run.without.raincoats

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7 minutes ago, run.without.raincoats said:

Thank you for the reply!

Tank and tap pH are both 7 currently, she says the tap sometimes rises to around 8 after a rainstorm

And yes she has prazi, metro, and salt on hand. 

Ok I would like you to do a test... Get a jug of water fill it up with tap. Test it let it set for 24 hours with an air stone in it running. Then test it in 24 hours to see what the PH is. :)

This is the only fish in this tank? 

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Ok I don't want you to change the water till we know the numbers of the Jug test. Im worried it could be a PH problem. If not We are going to clean the tank to just plan clean water then do Salt dips of .1% for up to 5 mins. I would do the first one at 1-2 mins and see how she reacts to it. :) 

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Ok thanks, she's going to do the jug test. The infection on her tail seems to be back as of a few hours ago, on the other side this time :( Her breathing is becoming labored and she's having muscle twitches (flashing possibly? I don't quite understand what Buzz is describing, she doesn't think it looks like flashing. I'm asking for a video)

 

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2 hours ago, run.without.raincoats said:

Tank and tap pH are both 7 currently, she says the tap sometimes rises to around 8 after a rainstorm

This is what bothers me... Im wondering if the ph was to high and then dropped. The flashy is a sign of flukes and the redness could be the flukes or a bacterial infection.

So the issue is figuring out the ph coming out if we can do large water changes or not. 

Fish can handle Ph going up on them but not down. :o So if it was 8 at one time and then it goes to 7 that can burn the fish. so the Ph is the first step. Once we can figure that out and get it stable we can go from there.

If you can too it might help is Wondershells. They help keep the ph more stable and adds in minerals also dechlorinate the water :) 

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Hope Pumpkin feels better.

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Here's the twitching she was describing, very strange. The weird jumping on her chest. Reminds me of what heart palpitations look like in reptiles, never seen it in a fish before

 

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It's so awful to see her like this...  poor little poopkin, she looks so tired :'( 

Buzz is considering euthanasia if she continues to go downhill. She's been through a lot in the last few months... I'll understand if she feels like that's the best thing but I'm hoping she's willing to give it until tomorrow so we can see the results of the pH test. I'll be heartbroken if she doesn't make it ?

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13 minutes ago, run.without.raincoats said:

It's so awful to see her like this...  poor little poopkin, she looks so tired :'( 

Buzz is considering euthanasia if she continues to go downhill. She's been through a lot in the last few months... I'll understand if she feels like that's the best thing but I'm hoping she's willing to give it until tomorrow so we can see the results of the pH test. I'll be heartbroken if she doesn't make it ?

Once we know the Ph isn't the problem ( I read her thread on your guys forum) then we can work from that unless my helpers have ideas. I have sent a report to them :)  

Hold on Fish :) 

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Any word on the water ? 

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20 minutes ago, run.without.raincoats said:

 

Yes you were right, the pH dropped from 8 to 7 overnight! 

Well with that kind of change we got two ways of going.... 

Baking soda added every time a water change is done. 

then the other thing is a large container to hold water so that the Ph can adjust. like a rain barrel.

I will get Sharon to help me with ideas here :) But the key right now is not to do large water changes its burning the fish unless you can use the baking soda. :)

I would also suggest the Wondershells if you can afford it as it does help with KH problems and some PH for ppl. It seems the KH is to low and causing the PH to crash down :(

If this tank has any logs or wood in there I would highly suggest getting it out of there as it will lower the Ph too.

Also I would get the KH and GH tested so we know where its going too. I would do the same Jug test for that too :) 

 

 

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I would get a KH test if you can as you'll want to be able to test it yourself (or I guess your friend since it's not your fish . . . ) until the pH is stable.  For now I'd either age the water 24 hours before WCs or add baking soda.  I would not do large WCs (or anything larger than 20%) for now as that fish has been through so many pH swings and meds . . .

 

Gorgeous fish BTW :D

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She's getting the GH/KH test overnight shipped so hopefully it'll be there in the next day or two. Depending on the results of that she'll look at using the wonder shells, but she's in Canada so we'll have to factor extra shipping costs into that too given I think they're a US product. So are small changes the way to go for now? How frequently do you think would be safe?

I don't think medication is a good idea at this point given how much she's already had, but Buzz is becoming very concerned about the infection on her tail as well as some possible bleeding on Pumpkin's belly. Is there anything more low key you might suggest to give her immune system some help or is it just up to her to fight it off now..?

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A 10% daily water change won't result in a significant pH change and keeps the water as clean as a 50% weekly change.  If you start by removing the dirty water in the filters and siphoning debris from the bottom of the tank, you should only need to remove a little more water to get to 10%.  The dirtiest water in the system resides in the filter and at the bottom of the tank, so getting that out makes the water change more effective.

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A quick update: the GH/KH kit came in today and they were reeeaaaallly low! No wonder Pumpkin's had a rough few months. If anything it's amazing that she's still trucking through with the pH swinging around like it no doubt has been. She's doing a little better now, still sloughing huge amounts of slime but the infection on her tail seems to be easing up and she's starting to move around the tank and respond a bit more to people. What a tough cookie :D

^_^ Thanks so much for the help, the overnight test was a good idea. We checked the pH a couple times and they were around the same value but they must have been done too far apart to catch the swings in between that were doing the damage. Now that we've pinned down the problem we can fix it

Edited by run.without.raincoats

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27 minutes ago, run.without.raincoats said:

A quick update: the GH/KH kit came in today and they were reeeaaaallly low! No wonder Pumpkin's had a rough few months. If anything it's amazing that she's still trucking through with the pH swinging around like it no doubt has been. She's doing a little better now, still sloughing huge amounts of slime but the infection on her tail seems to be easing up and she's starting to move around the tank and respond a bit more to people. What a tough cookie :D

^_^ Thanks so much for the help, the overnight test was a good idea. We checked the pH a couple times and they were around the same value but they must have been done too far apart to catch the swings in between that were doing the damage. Now that we've pinned down the problem we can fix it

No problem Glad we could help :thumbs: 

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