Jump to content
Kokos Goldfish Forum
Sign in to follow this  
horserider36

New Chu From DO... and a big question.

Recommended Posts

Hi guys,

 

I somewhat recently worked with Jared for a long time with a dropsy case concerning my Petsmart ranchu, Clementine. Unfortunately, she passed away a few weeks ago. She dropsied and it felt like before I could even get my bearings and alert the forum something was wrong, she was gone.

 

I think a big part of my problem was that she was incredibly sensitive to ammonia and even after I stopped dosing with the antibiotics, I just could not get a steady cycle started and any time the ammonia read over 1.5, she was visibly in distraught, even with AmmoLock or a double dose of Prime.

 

I bought another ranchu from Ken at DO a couple weekends ago and he arrived on Tuesday. His name is Agent 86 and he's the second fish I've received from them. I'm sure it was my fault, but the first one I bought a few years ago barely made it two weeks. It was quite sad. Anyway, he's adorable and I am already in love with his squishy cheeks.

 

image_zpsejbwmm3x.jpeg

 

I waited a week to have him shipped so I could thoroughly bleach, scrub, and let Clementine's old tank and all the equipment sit dry for a while.

 

Since I got him, I've been doing daily 70% water changes (with Prime) because the ammonia always settles between 0.5 and 1.0 after 24 hours. The nitrates also seem to read just under 5.0 and maybe trace nitrites, but probably not. pH sits at a constant 7.4.

 

I'm considering using Seachem Stability along with the AmmoLock to help get things started, but I'm worried about ammonia spikes because I really... really really really do not want to lose this fish.

 

So here are the Stability directions... "Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 40 L (10 gallons*) on the first day with a new aquarium. Then use 1 capful for each 80 L (20 gallons*) daily for 7 days. Fish and other aquatic species may be introduced at any time as long as dosage is maintained for 7 days."

 

He is in a 20 gallon tank.

 

I'm worried that if I don't do some kind of water change each day, the ammonia will become out of control, going beyond what the AmmoLock can handle (which I believe is 4.0 ppm).

 

Sooo here is my question. Should I follow the directions verbatim, or should I do water changes and replace any Stability taken out? Or does some evaporate out on it's own and it would be too difficult to figure out how much to replace?

 

I'm perfectly happy doing daily 50-70% changes for as long as I need to if the tank will eventually cycle, but it's obviously a huge waste of time if it won't.

 

I do not have another tank to seed with, unfortunately.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated... and Agent 86 is obviously quite happy to meet you guys :pease:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agent 86 is beautiful!!!!! My BEST to him!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agent 86 is beautiful!!!!! My BEST to him!!!!!

 

Thank you!! He's such a little squish :teehee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you have ammonia in your tap?

He's adorable:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you have ammonia in your tap?

He's adorable:)

No, tap is totally clean, so is the water coming out of the Python.

 

And thanks! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've seen mixed success with biological additives. If it was me I would skip it and do large daily WCs and feed lightly.

It takes several days without a WC for those additives to be effective. So unless you can feed so lightly along with adding Prime that you're comfortable enough to not do WCs, the Stability isn't necessary. You could use it once your cycle has started establishing and daily/frequent WCs aren't necessary...

I hope that makes sense. I'm watching football and answering. :rofl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you have learned that you shouldn't mix antibiotics and a cycled/cycling filter.  When I need a hospital tank, I use the bucket-to-bucket method of 100% water changes using two ~10 gallon underbed totes.  

 

Are you using salt and/or prazi currently?  (Neither of these will affect the cycle.)  Or are you just doing a fish-in cycle?

 

Ammo lock does the same thing as Prime, converting ammonia to the less toxic ammonium.  If you use Prime you have no need for Ammo Lock.

 

Unless you have a very large fish,  more than 0.5 ppm ammonia the day after a water change indicates overfeeding.   I suggest you cut the amount you feed in half.

 

I usually don't recommend "cycling" product, but since you have had trouble establishing a stable cycle in the past, I think trying Stability might be worthwhile.  You should be aware that the bacteria in Stability are not the same as the naturally occurring nitrifiers.   Once you complete cycling, it will take sometime for native nitrifiers to replace the Stability bacteria and only then will you have a completely stable cycle.

 

If you want to use Stability, do 50% daily water changes, adding Stability to the new water.  If the ammonia goes above 0.5 ppm, further reduce your feeding.  When you remove water from the tank, make sure you take out the dirtiest -- that on the bottom of the tank and that in the filter.  Dump the water from the filter, and give the media a gentle rinse.

 

Once nitrite appears, add 1 teaspoon of salt per 10 gallons of water, and maintain this concentration until the nitrite disappears.   This will protect the fish from nitrite toxicity.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Emily :)

Your new chu is darling :heart I feel your pain about the ammonia :madrant I'm having similar issues (but mines from the tap)

Good luck!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you have learned that you shouldn't mix antibiotics and a cycled/cycling filter.  When I need a hospital tank, I use the bucket-to-bucket method of 100% water changes using two ~10 gallon underbed totes.  

 

Are you using salt and/or prazi currently?  (Neither of these will affect the cycle.)  Or are you just doing a fish-in cycle?

 

Ammo lock does the same thing as Prime, converting ammonia to the less toxic ammonium.  If you use Prime you have no need for Ammo Lock.

 

Unless you have a very large fish,  more than 0.5 ppm ammonia the day after a water change indicates overfeeding.   I suggest you cut the amount you feed in half.

 

I usually don't recommend "cycling" product, but since you have had trouble establishing a stable cycle in the past, I think trying Stability might be worthwhile.  You should be aware that the bacteria in Stability are not the same as the naturally occurring nitrifiers.   Once you complete cycling, it will take sometime for native nitrifiers to replace the Stability bacteria and only then will you have a completely stable cycle.

 

If you want to use Stability, do 50% daily water changes, adding Stability to the new water.  If the ammonia goes above 0.5 ppm, further reduce your feeding.  When you remove water from the tank, make sure you take out the dirtiest -- that on the bottom of the tank and that in the filter.  Dump the water from the filter, and give the media a gentle rinse.

 

Once nitrite appears, add 1 teaspoon of salt per 10 gallons of water, and maintain this concentration until the nitrite disappears.   This will protect the fish from nitrite toxicity.  

 

I really had no choice in the antibiotic uncycled water a few months ago... but yes, the whole situation was heartbreaking and a learning experience.

 

I am using Prazipro but no salt due to the ammonia issue. I know ideally they should be used together, but I erred on the side of caution on that one.

 

When Jared and I were trying to figure out the cause of the ammonia back when I had Clementine, I didn't feed anything for 24 hours and we still got the same reading after a 100% w/c, 1.0 after 24 hours. He was the one who suggested trying the Stability once the fish was healthy again.

 

As far as Prime vs AmmoLock, I'm only using Prime now, as the ammonia doesn't go over 1.0 and from what I understand, Prime detoxifies up to 1.0 ppm while AmmoLock detoxifies up to 4.0 ppm. I have the AmmoLock on hand if I decide to start the Stability and I have an emergency spike and cannot do water change because it will screw up the cycling process (Also, I was at the store and it was one of those "Shoot. I don't know.... couldn't hurt to have," moments)

 

The only things in the tank are a couple dozen glass marbles and an AC 70 (I believe they used to be Fluval). I can try not feeding him (or feeding very little, like you said) to see if that helps, but it was tried before and I have my doubts. He's not massive, but at almost 4 1/2", he is quite the fatty lol.

 

I will give your method of introducing the Stability a shot while making sure to rinse and siphon the dirtiest areas of the tank/filter and let you know how it goes.

 

Thank you for your help!

 

Hi Emily :)

Your new chu is darling :heart I feel your pain about the ammonia :madrant I'm having similar issues (but mines from the tap)

Good luck!

 

Thank you so much!! He makes me smile. He's very swimmy and curious, I love it. SO sorry to hear about your ammonia issues.

 

One of those things that just makes you want to rip your hair out....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I am using Prazipro but no salt due to the ammonia issue. I know ideally they should be used together, but I erred on the side of caution on that one.

 

I don't understand.  What does ammonia have to do with salt?

 

As far as Prime vs AmmoLock, I'm only using Prime now, as the ammonia doesn't go over 1.0 and from what I understand, Prime detoxifies up to 1.0 ppm while AmmoLock detoxifies up to 4.0 ppm.  

 

The normal dose of Prime detoxifies 1.0 ppm.  Double the dose and it does 2.0 ppm.  If I remember correctly, you aren't supposed to add more than 4X the normal dose,  which would do 4.0 ppm.

 

The only things in the tank are a couple dozen glass marbles and an AC 70 (I believe they used to be Fluval). I can try not feeding him (or feeding very little, like you said) to see if that helps, but it was tried before and I have my doubts. He's not massive, but at almost 4 1/2", he is quite the fatty lol.

 

Unless you have decaying material somewhere in the system (usually in the filter or substrate) ammonia comes from the protein in fish food. With a very sick fish, however, it could come from decaying tissue of the fish.  

 

I will give your method of introducing the Stability a shot while making sure to rinse and siphon the dirtiest areas of the tank/filter and let you know how it goes.

 

Thank you for your help.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am using Prazipro but no salt due to the ammonia issue. I know ideally they should be used together, but I erred on the side of caution on that one.

I don't understand. What does ammonia have to do with salt?

As far as Prime vs AmmoLock, I'm only using Prime now, as the ammonia doesn't go over 1.0 and from what I understand, Prime detoxifies up to 1.0 ppm while AmmoLock detoxifies up to 4.0 ppm.

The normal dose of Prime detoxifies 1.0 ppm. Double the dose and it does 2.0 ppm. If I remember correctly, you aren't supposed to add more than 4X the normal dose, which would do 4.0 ppm.

The only things in the tank are a couple dozen glass marbles and an AC 70 (I believe they used to be Fluval). I can try not feeding him (or feeding very little, like you said) to see if that helps, but it was tried before and I have my doubts. He's not massive, but at almost 4 1/2", he is quite the fatty lol.

Unless you have decaying material somewhere in the system (usually in the filter or substrate) ammonia comes from the protein in fish food. With a very sick fish, however, it could come from decaying tissue of the fish.

I will give your method of introducing the Stability a shot while making sure to rinse and siphon the dirtiest areas of the tank/filter and let you know how it goes.

Thank you for your help.

I always thought that salt and ammonia were a bad combination? I don't know, I guess things change. I appreciate your help for sure, but it feels like things are getting a little hostile? I never second guessed you, just going off old information perhaps. Koko's has been my safe place for years. I'm just trying to learn and keep my fish healthy.

Thank you for your assistance. I'll use the new knowledge to figure this out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Angels plus sells an "active" established sponge filter. Just came across it while browsing their site.

I've tried various bacteria in a bottles and the only one I have success with was Dr Tim's from Drs Foster and Smith which was shipped with a cold pack. Stability was a big .

If I was in your situation I'd probably try the angels plus product. Worst case and you still have an extra sponge filter for the future/next QT.

http://www.angelsplus.com/FiltersSpongeActive.htm

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by Butterfly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh he is so adorable!!!

 

Btw miss ya!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Angels plus sells an "active" established sponge filter. Just came across it while browsing their site.

I've tried various bacteria in a bottles and the only one I have success with was Dr Tim's from Drs Foster and Smith which was shipped with a cold pack. Stability was a big .

If I was in your situation I'd probably try the angels plus product. Worst case and you still have an extra sponge filter for the future/next QT.

http://www.angelsplus.com/FiltersSpongeActive.htm

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Oh I didn't know about these! Thank you!

 

Oh he is so adorable!!!

 

Btw miss ya!

 

Thanks! He has such a sweet personality as well.

 

Miss you too Fang. Got out of goldfish for a while due to school but hoping to nestle back into the community eventually. I hope you're well!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always thought that salt and ammonia were a bad combination? I don't know, I guess things change. I appreciate your help for sure, but it feels like things are getting a little hostile? I never second guessed you, just going off old information perhaps. Koko's has been my safe place for years. I'm just trying to learn and keep my fish healthy.

Thank you for your assistance. I'll use the new knowledge to figure this out.

 

 

I certainly apologize if something I said appeared hostile.  I intended nothing of the kind, but I am very careful about learning why people take a certain action.   If Jared had recommended no salt, I could ask his reason and maybe learn something from him.  I'm pretty sure I ask more about what people did and why they did it than anyone else here.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jared recommended no salt because he said contact with Hikari about salt and PraziPro (she is using PraziPro) yielded that salt doesn't necessarily work well with PraziPro and that salt is only useful with praziquantel if it is the powdered kind. They've been saying that for a while, I can't recall anything about salt and ammonia, however.

Edited by mjfromga

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I always thought that salt and ammonia were a bad combination? I don't know, I guess things change. I appreciate your help for sure, but it feels like things are getting a little hostile? I never second guessed you, just going off old information perhaps. Koko's has been my safe place for years. I'm just trying to learn and keep my fish healthy.

Thank you for your assistance. I'll use the new knowledge to figure this out.

 

 

I certainly apologize if something I said appeared hostile.  I intended nothing of the kind, but I am very careful about learning why people take a certain action.   If Jared had recommended no salt, I could ask his reason and maybe learn something from him.  I'm pretty sure I ask more about what people did and why they did it than anyone else here.  

 

 

I apologize for using the word "hostile," I don't think that was appropriate there. I'm super old school... like, I just threw away a bag of MediGold kind of old school, so a lot of the information I'm going off of is old. I haven't been a regular on Koko's for several years. For some reason, I thought salt only made higher amounts of ammonia more toxic so that's why I didn't use it with the PraziPro. It could be something I read years ago, it could be something I *thought* I read years ago, but I was so sure that I was right, I didn't use it.

 

I definitely don't want to throw Jared under the bus here at all. He was immensely helpful. The reason we didn't use it with my dropsy case is because she was quite bloated and it would've made things worse.

 

I remember you and I don't want to get off on the wrong foot because that's not who we are. I got defensive because research changes and perhaps I was "remembering" the wrong information all along.

 

Jared recommended no salt because he said contact with Hikari about salt and PraziPro (she is using PraziPro) yielded that salt doesn't necessarily work well with PraziPro and that salt is only useful with praziquantel if it is the powdered kind. They've been saying that for a while, I can't recall anything about salt and ammonia, however.

 

I didn't know this about PraziPro but it's very good to know now. Thank you :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Angels plus sells an "active" established sponge filter. Just came across it while browsing their site.

I've tried various bacteria in a bottles and the only one I have success with was Dr Tim's from Drs Foster and Smith which was shipped with a cold pack. Stability was a big .

If I was in your situation I'd probably try the angels plus product. Worst case and you still have an extra sponge filter for the future/next QT.

http://www.angelsplus.com/FiltersSpongeActive.htm

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I ended up ordering this. The price wasn't too bad and it never hurts to have a sponge filter.

 

I did a big w/c last night, rinsed all the media/floss/and the sponge from the HOB in tank water, siphoned any places dirt could be hiding in the bottom of the tank or in the corners of the filters, didn't feed him at all, and I'm still reading 0.5 ammonia this morning. Do you think substrate would help? I've had fairly thin layer of Tahitian Moon Sand in my main for years and it's been great.

 

The issue is driving me nuts but I know this isn't the thread to talk about it. We will see how the sponge filter works out. If nothing else, I'll just keep the ammonia as low I can manually. I don't mind the extra work. My main tank is super low maintenance and my tap water is fabulous.

 

Thank you guys for the help and the kind words about 86. He's a sweetheart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Substrate will not help.  Time will help.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Substrate will not help.  Time will help.  

 

Sounds good. Thank you :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Angels plus sells an "active" established sponge filter. Just came across it while browsing their site.

I've tried various bacteria in a bottles and the only one I have success with was Dr Tim's from Drs Foster and Smith which was shipped with a cold pack. Stability was a big .

If I was in your situation I'd probably try the angels plus product. Worst case and you still have an extra sponge filter for the future/next QT.

http://www.angelsplus.com/FiltersSpongeActive.htm

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I ended up ordering this. The price wasn't too bad and it never hurts to have a sponge filter.

I did a big w/c last night, rinsed all the media/floss/and the sponge from the HOB in tank water, siphoned any places dirt could be hiding in the bottom of the tank or in the corners of the filters, didn't feed him at all, and I'm still reading 0.5 ammonia this morning. Do you think substrate would help? I've had fairly thin layer of Tahitian Moon Sand in my main for years and it's been great.

The issue is driving me nuts but I know this isn't the thread to talk about it. We will see how the sponge filter works out. If nothing else, I'll just keep the ammonia as low I can manually. I don't mind the extra work. My main tank is super low maintenance and my tap water is fabulous.

Thank you guys for the help and the kind words about 86. He's a sweetheart.

Cool. . Could you let us know if/how well it worked after you receive it?

Also, I'm guessing you would want to make sure the ammonia in the tank is as low as possible before sticking it in so as not to crash it even before it gets off the ground.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Angels plus sells an "active" established sponge filter. Just came across it while browsing their site.

I've tried various bacteria in a bottles and the only one I have success with was Dr Tim's from Drs Foster and Smith which was shipped with a cold pack. Stability was a big .

If I was in your situation I'd probably try the angels plus product. Worst case and you still have an extra sponge filter for the future/next QT.

http://www.angelsplus.com/FiltersSpongeActive.htm

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I ended up ordering this. The price wasn't too bad and it never hurts to have a sponge filter.

I did a big w/c last night, rinsed all the media/floss/and the sponge from the HOB in tank water, siphoned any places dirt could be hiding in the bottom of the tank or in the corners of the filters, didn't feed him at all, and I'm still reading 0.5 ammonia this morning. Do you think substrate would help? I've had fairly thin layer of Tahitian Moon Sand in my main for years and it's been great.

The issue is driving me nuts but I know this isn't the thread to talk about it. We will see how the sponge filter works out. If nothing else, I'll just keep the ammonia as low I can manually. I don't mind the extra work. My main tank is super low maintenance and my tap water is fabulous.

Thank you guys for the help and the kind words about 86. He's a sweetheart.

Cool. . Could you let us know if/how well it worked after you receive it?

Also, I'm guessing you would want to make sure the ammonia in the tank is as low as possible before sticking it in so as not to crash it even before it gets off the ground.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

Yes I'll definitely give a little review of it once its put to use :) My husband always had sponge filters in his discus tanks and they were great, but didn't come "activated." Thank you for the advice on the ammonia situation, that would be sad to kill it without giving it a chance lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cool. . Could you let us know if/how well it worked after you receive it?

Also, I'm guessing you would want to make sure the ammonia in the tank is as low as possible before sticking it in so as not to crash it even before it gets off the ground.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

It came in yesterday. Impressive shipping, considering I chose the cheap option. So far... it's a sponge filter and I like it lol. I made sure the ammonia was zero when I installed it. I'll monitor water params as I go and make a thread about it after I've had it running for a while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Congrats on the new addition.  86 is ridiculously adorable.  I hope you have a very boring QT :)

 

And welcome back!  I don't think we were ever on the forum at the same time, but I recently watched one of the videos you posted a few years back and couldn't stop laughing :D

 

Looking forward to reading how the sponge filter worked out for you.  Seems like a pretty cool product.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
  • Create New...