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Bmitchell486

Vietnamese Telescope Fry

64 posts in this topic

I wouldn't sell any fish with severe flaws, nobody would buy them anyway. I wouldn't breed fish with severe flaws, what sense does that make? Shembje has a fused tail, a really weak hump, and a missing anal fin. Randy has NO WEN and a missing anal fin. Omen has both anal fins, but missing a ventral fin. Small flaws that are expected of pet store fish.

My adults are both female. Rhonda is small, but for a Ryukin, pretty close to breed standard (except she has a ribbontail when most prefer broadtail or shorttail). I got her from Walmart last October for $2 and shes never been sick a day in her life. Nericon was from a breeder and she's of decent quality, though I don't wish to breed fantails. Neither have missing fins or anything.

I have no experience so I don't think I'd be able to sell them even if I wanted to. I just wanted to try it once and see what happens. I agree that nothing but deformed fish would be a let down, but you can't know until you try. At the end of the day, when it comes to true deformities, fancy goldfish take the cake anyway with all the floating etc. I just want them to be healthy.

 

I want to try breeding someday too.  I find myself thinking it all through before I end up trying it - do I want to hand strip, or allow natural breeding? do I want to breed/sell for profit, or do I want to occasionally breed and offer to the community, and give the rest to my lfs? 

 

I also get into the ethics... I love the goldfish fancy, and have contributed to the hobby over the years by my purchases.  But do I want to personally continue breeding fish that have potentially unhealthy traits (telescope eye, bubble eye, pingpong pearlscale, etc).  And we all have gone through swim bladder deformities to some degree at some point.  So do I pick out a fish to breed that is more "natural," such as a shubunkin? (this conversation exists for any type of domestic animal breeding.  Take the english bulldog, or the pug for example.  Absolutely adorable, but quite unnatural and come with considerable health risks.  We'll never "solve" these issues, but I will certainly chew on them)

 

For now, I enjoy my fish and I enjoy the hobby.  Not sure what I'll do in years to come :) 

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Do move them to a bigger tub sooner than later! The two times I raised fry, I know I didn't add space soon enough and at least on the second batch I think that had a lot to do with their size now. :idont That's the main thing I wish I could change. 

 

I had a black tub and did not find it too difficult to avoid them. That said.... IT WILL HAPPEN. (ummmm at least if you are me :peeka)

Even when I had them in the clear tub, I sucked them up. SO, just siphon into a bowl, inspect, and then dump that out once you know nobody went for a ride. :thumbs:

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Do move them to a bigger tub sooner than later! The two times I raised fry, I know I didn't add space soon enough and at least on the second batch I think that had a lot to do with their size now. :idont That's the main thing I wish I could change. 

 

I had a black tub and did not find it too difficult to avoid them. That said.... IT WILL HAPPEN. (ummmm at least if you are me :peeka)

Even when I had them in the clear tub, I sucked them up. SO, just siphon into a bowl, inspect, and then dump that out once you know nobody went for a ride. :thumbs:

 

Good call.  The plan is to move them to a bigger tub tonight.  If I get the 20 gal mortar tub from home depot, I'll put all of them in there.  If not, I'll split them up and fill my totes to 8 inches of water.

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You will not be able to see the babies in a black tub until they color.  I kept my small fry in little dollar store dishpans (light colored).  I had two pans for each group of  8-10 fry.  I did bucket-to-bucket water changes, scooping the little ones up in my hand to move them (and their duckweed) to the fresh water.  Virtually every baby survived.

 

Three to four inches of water works well.  The ranchu breeders say fry raised in 3" deep water develop better than those in 5" of water.  

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You will not be able to see the babies in a black tub until they color.  I kept my small fry in little dollar store dishpans (light colored).  I had two pans for each group of  8-10 fry.  I did bucket-to-bucket water changes, scooping the little ones up in my hand to move them (and their duckweed) to the fresh water.  Virtually every baby survived.

 

Three to four inches of water works well.  The ranchu breeders say fry raised in 3" deep water develop better than those in 5" of water.  

 

I ended up putting them into a tote last night - 8 inches of water ended up being exactly 10 gallons, with my sponge filter.  I don't know why I was thinking 8 inches was the right depth.  I'll remove water to 3-4 inches.  This will require me to go back to just using a bubbler (and not the sponge filter) because my sponge filter is quite large, about 7 inches tall.   I estimate this would be about 5 gallons of water.... is that enough water for 26 babies @ 1/2 inch long? Doing 50-75% water changes daily...

 

When you had them split into groups of 8-10, did you have sponge filters in each of the containers? Or a bubbler?  I only have 1 massive sponge filter 1 available air pump.  My other available air pump is being used for bbs -- at what size are the fry too big to be eating bbs?  

 

I've got to work through my options here:

 

Option 1:

- Keep them in their current tote at 8 inches of water, with a sponge filter, until they're ~ 1 inch long.

- Pro -- they have a sponge filter, they have enough water

- Con - water is too deep

 

Option 2:

- Split them into multiple containers of 3-4 inches deep

- Pro - they have enough water, and water depth is appropriate

- Con - not all containers would have a bubbler/sponge filter

 

Option 3:

- Put them into the 20 gallon cement mixing tub (I ended up buying it last night)

- Pro - they have enough water and water depth is appropriate, they would have a bubbler

- Con - it's massive for 26 fry and they may have trouble finding their food

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I wouldn't sell any fish with severe flaws, nobody would buy them anyway. I wouldn't breed fish with severe flaws, what sense does that make? Shembje has a fused tail, a really weak hump, and a missing anal fin. Randy has NO WEN and a missing anal fin. Omen has both anal fins, but missing a ventral fin. Small flaws that are expected of pet store fish.

My adults are both female. Rhonda is small, but for a Ryukin, pretty close to breed standard (except she has a ribbontail when most prefer broadtail or shorttail). I got her from Walmart last October for $2 and shes never been sick a day in her life. Nericon was from a breeder and she's of decent quality, though I don't wish to breed fantails. Neither have missing fins or anything.

I have no experience so I don't think I'd be able to sell them even if I wanted to. I just wanted to try it once and see what happens. I agree that nothing but deformed fish would be a let down, but you can't know until you try. At the end of the day, when it comes to true deformities, fancy goldfish take the cake anyway with all the floating etc. I just want them to be healthy.

 

I want to try breeding someday too.  I find myself thinking it all through before I end up trying it - do I want to hand strip, or allow natural breeding? do I want to breed/sell for profit, or do I want to occasionally breed and offer to the community, and give the rest to my lfs? 

 

I also get into the ethics... I love the goldfish fancy, and have contributed to the hobby over the years by my purchases.  But do I want to personally continue breeding fish that have potentially unhealthy traits (telescope eye, bubble eye, pingpong pearlscale, etc).  And we all have gone through swim bladder deformities to some degree at some point.  So do I pick out a fish to breed that is more "natural," such as a shubunkin? (this conversation exists for any type of domestic animal breeding.  Take the english bulldog, or the pug for example.  Absolutely adorable, but quite unnatural and come with considerable health risks.  We'll never "solve" these issues, but I will certainly chew on them)

 

For now, I enjoy my fish and I enjoy the hobby.  Not sure what I'll do in years to come :)

Well said! I agree. I would only breed for profit if I was 100% sure everyone was healthy and that they'd all go to good homes. I don't see that as something I'd want to put effort into long term. Ideally every house I ever went into would have a tank with Ryukins lol. Despite that, many of the show type of bulbous short tailed Ryukins really put me off. Fancies do have so many health issues and while we love them anyway, its best to try and reduce these as much as we can whilst retaining what we love about them.

PS - I dislike "hand spawning" with a passion and would never breed that way. If my fish don't naturally spawn, then no fry for me. I also dislike "encouraged" spawning by artificially messing with temps. The entire thing is only an experience I will have if my fish spawn on their own with no interference. If they never do, I'm fine with that too. I don't have any pricey breeder fish and I wouldn't be seeking profit anyway.

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 I estimate this would be about 5 gallons of water.... is that enough water for 26 babies @ 1/2 inch long? Doing 50-75% water changes daily...

 

I used 2 gallon containers.  No sponge filter, no bubbler, no siphon.  100% water changes (moving the fry-- and their duckweed -- to fresh water) every other day.  Here you see the pans after a change.  The fry are in the pans with duckweed.  The pans they came from have been dumped and have fresh water in them. I don't wash the pans, so they have a biofilm that the babies nibble on.

 

IMG_0802.jpg

 

 

At what size are the fry too big to be eating bbs?  I don't know.  I haven't used bbs.  They had live food on the duckweed, on the surface of the pan, and sometimes I gave them a algae-covered stone from a plant pot.  I offered them spirulina powder and Omega 1 flakes rubbed to a powder just putting in tiny specks until they started eating them. The dust in the bottom of a fish food container works too.  When they developed enthusiasm for the manufactured food, I would float a large pellet in the pan.  They would immediately start nibbling, but they couldn't get a large piece of dry food that could stick in their throats as small pellets can.  

 

I've got to work through my options here:

 

Option 1:

- Keep them in their current tote at 8 inches of water, with a sponge filter, until they're ~ 1 inch long.

- Pro -- they have a sponge filter, they have enough water

- Con - water is too deep

 

Option 2:

- Split them into multiple containers of 3-4 inches deep

- Pro - they have enough water, and water depth is appropriate

- Con - not all containers would have a bubbler/sponge filter

 

Option 3:

- Put them into the 20 gallon cement mixing tub (I ended up buying it last night)

- Pro - they have enough water and water depth is appropriate, they would have a bubbler

- Con - it's massive for 26 fry and they may have trouble finding their food

 

My only objection is the mortar tub.  Use it for growing duckweed and put the babies in it once they color.  How do you plan to change water for invisible fry?

 

If you siphon, use a tube more than 1/2 inch inner diameter so they don't bend going through the tube.  You can use continuous drip with an overflow into a container where you can catch the adventurous babies that go out the overflow.

Edited by shakaho

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MJ, it's too bad you're in GA and I'm in OH.  I think we align a lot, and it would be fun to get together to talk goldfish :)

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Sharon, thanks for the advice.  I am going to split them to 2 tubs tonight, ~4-5 gallons each,  both with duckweed, one with a bubbler and one without.  

 

I'll wait to put them into the tub until they're larger and CBT (is color baby telescope a thing? haha, all I've seen before is CBR for Color Baby Ranchu) :) 

 

Up until now... I've taken the painstaking task of using a turkey baster to do all water changes.  I use it to suck water out... takes forever.  I also use it to add the new water back.... also takes forever.  I couldn't think of a better way to siphon water out (airline tube took even longer), so that's just what I did.  And I added water back with it because dumping water any faster would mess up the duckweed... if it gets agitated, it clumps up and doesn't lay out in a single layer along the waterline.  I didn't want to kill it by submerging lots of it after every water change.

 

But yeah... now that they're in a bigger tub (soon to be 2 tubs), I might just opt to do 100% w/c everyday, picking up babies by hand.  I don't have any hoses that are larger than 1/2 inch.  I don't have the supplies for the continuous drip.

 

Here's some pics I took last night: 

IMG_2285.jpg

 

IMG_2287.jpg

 

IMG_2289.jpg

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They're so cute. Wishing good luck. And true, would be so nice to have a Goldie chat.

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We do water changes by netting out babies into a bowl of the water they were in (usually go ahead and cull at that point) then replace 100% of the water in the tub then net the fry back in.

Thus we usually don't do big water changes until they're about 2 weeks old.

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Edited by octoari

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We do water changes by netting out babies into a bowl of the water they were in (usually go ahead and cull at that point) then replace 100% of the water in the tub then net the fry back in.

Thus we usually don't do big water changes until they're about 2 weeks old.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Interesting.  I was going to do it this way, but got a word of caution from another breeder that this could damage tails on such young fry.  Sounds like you haven't experienced this issue with netting them everyday once they're a few weeks old?

 

Mine may be smaller than average too since this is my first time raising fry.  When I got them, I estimated them to be about a week old.  This weekend they will be ~3 weeks old and they're only ~1/2 inch.  

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We do water changes by netting out babies into a bowl of the water they were in (usually go ahead and cull at that point) then replace 100% of the water in the tub then net the fry back in.

Thus we usually don't do big water changes until they're about 2 weeks old.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Interesting. I was going to do it this way, but got a word of caution from another breeder that this could damage tails on such young fry. Sounds like you haven't experienced this issue with netting them everyday once they're a few weeks old?

Mine may be smaller than average too since this is my first time raising fry. When I got them, I estimated them to be about a week old. This weekend they will be ~3 weeks old and they're only ~1/2 inch.

Yeah we haven't tried doing it on itty bitties. If things are looking foul too soon I did once hand scoop out with a coffee cup about a third of the water to buy us a few more days. The things you'll do for some fish....

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Those little eyes are so cute

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Aww they are so cute! I hope my guys give me a chance to try fry again. I only want to try a small number though this time!

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Aww they are so cute! I hope my guys give me a chance to try fry again. I only want to try a small number though this time!

 

You do a great job with your fry.  I'm certain the only reason I've had success (so far) is because 1. The fry were healthy and strong when I got them at ~ 1 week old, and 2. I have less than 30 to care for.

 

I'm enjoying it a lot, but am still cautious with them because I know fry are so fragile at this stage.

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Here are a few pictures I got a few days ago while doing a water change :) 

 

IMG_2346.jpg

 

 

IMG_2347.jpg

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Wow! How big are they now? I wish i wasn't so overstocked... I would totally take one off your hands when they got a little bigger! It would be cool to have a tele without crippling defects.

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Thanks guys!  Yeah, as soon as they're ~2 inches, I'll be offering them to you all here first!!!  Free, just pay shipping (which I think is actually $20.  I think the standard $50 shipping we see online from major sellers also includes packing materials, time/effort, and gas $ to the airport).

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You're going to want to start culling soon for "drooping" tail shoulders. You want to see strong tails that don't look collapsed otherwise the fish will struggle to swim later.

Also $20 is for USPS priority which takes 2-3 days to arrive depending on where the seller and buyer are in relation to each other. The standard $50-75 shipping a lot of fish vendors use is for FedEx overnight shipping.

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Oh okay cool.  Yeah, so far, to my eye their tails are looking pretty strong.  Most of them have pretty stiff leading rays, while a few aren't quite as stiff but still looks pretty good.  I was told to cull for fused tails but when I look at them, they all look split.

 

I think I'm avoiding culling for less desirable traits.  Going to have to sit down and do it some night this week.

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WOW some of them looking like they are going to be perfect :thumbs:

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