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DieselPlower

I'm dating a woman who has this...!

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How anyone can accuse this woman of cruelty to the fish.?  While the picture isn't the best, I see no sign of distress -- no clamped fins, no bottom sitting, no huddling in the corner.  If they started as carnival fish, they have clearly grown a lot  and look healthy.  Are their living conditions ideal?  No.   Are yours?  Will they have problems eventually?  Probably, but as the lady said, they've been doing just fine so far.  I see no reason to expect that she won't change her maintenance if  they stop doing OK.  Judge not.

 

Jason, I'd still like to know how much nitrate is in that tank.  :)

I'm heading over there tonight. Hopefully I will remember my test kit!

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Poor fish.  I kind of with the others someone that is mean to something defenseless no matter how cute/pretty nice funny in my book is not worth my time.   It has been my belief that someone like that is usually not nice to people in the long run.

I wish you luck no matter what you do cause we know you are a good person.

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I did not say to yell at her or to even further speak to her. Like Shelby said, if she doesn't wish to care for them well, just give them away. I've never cut animal cruelty any slack and won't start now. Sorry, that's just me. Their other qualities wouldn't matter much.

As a single 37 year old man who owns a business, is a manager at a fortune 500 company, and plays on 3 soccer teams, it is very difficult for me to find time to date, and even more so find someone who I am interested in dating. I am not going to kick to the curb a woman who is beautiful, likes me a lot, owns a successful business that she only has to work 4 days a week, is intelligent, funny, and doesn't have baby daddy drama simply because she is generally unaware of proper goldfish keeping practices. I would be foolish to do do in my opinion.

The lack of drama with an ex would be the ultimate selling point if I was in the same situation - bad ex's are the gift that keeps on giving :P

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You will do what you want. You will stay with who you want. The aggressive way you defended it tells me why you're letting it slide this time with actual access when you are usually viciously attacking people who do this even when you have no power at all. I get it now. I'll hop off this thread. Good luck to you and the poor fish.

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You will do what you want. You will stay with who you want. The aggressive way you defended it tells me why you're letting it slide this time with actual access when you are usually viciously attacking people who do this even when you have no power at all. I get it now. I'll hop off this thread. Good luck to you and the poor fish.

Myra, there is a world of difference between someone providing minimally for a pet and, say, intentionally and actively torturing the animal for amusement. Doubly so with an animal our culture tells us is about as disposable as an ant. DP may well be able to help her with some basic maintenance when he goes over, drop some hints here and there as to how to improve their care with little work, or even manage to rehome them. Dropping her like a hot potato and writing her off as a horrible person is not only silly based on what we have been told, it also eliminates any chance of actually *teaching* her something on the subject.

I'm as much an animal lover as anyone on here or I wouldn't spend time and energy on this site, but half of being a successful ambassador for animal treatment is encouraging people and meeting them where they are, not writing them off as soon as they don't immediately jump through every hoop we believe is necessary for optimal animal care. More than a few newbies have been scared off *this* site in the past due to over-aggressive but well meaning members jumping on deficiencies in their system and making them feel defensive or just plain fed up in trying to enjoy their animals. A more gentle approach that leads them to make conclusions on their *own* about proper animal care, like directing them to our articles on goldfish care or showing them a good system and explaining the benefits of some of those choices (along with some majestic, healthy animals they will want to replicate in their own home!) works so much better than harshness, judgment, and criticism.

And if DP is right and this woman really is all that and a bag of chips except for a casual attitude about 'feeder fish' care? She's just like my own spouse and any number of other amazing people who just don't 'get it' about fish. The way we change hearts and minds is through our own enthusiasm about our hobby and sparking their curiosity, not bludgeoning them with Fancy Goldfish and calling them abusers when they don't immediately 'get' why their bowl or tank isn't an optimal environment and makes their animal more challenging to care for than a bigger and more stable setup.

It just isn't that simple in a real life relationship where the outcome of more than just the health of the animal is being considered.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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You know something? I highly doubt anybody would be defending this if it weren't for how it came about. If a new member came here with this tank, they'd be (perhaps gently) told about proper goldfish keeping. If another member offered them a free larger tank and they replied with "NO WAY! I DONT WANT TO CLEAN THAT!!" I really would be surprised if people tried to defend their actions as not cruel and acceptable. I honestly don't believe a single soul would do so, and I especially don't think DP would.

So I find it interesting how people aren't saying that deliberate refusal to give the fish a better home isn't cruelty. I don't see how someone who behaved like that has the fishes best interests at heart either. How does that even make sense?

Maybe DP after all this time only offered her a tank, and didn't explain to her why she needed it or that keeping them like that isn't ideal for fear of offending her, which IMO doesn't make a lot of sense, but knowing and refusing is not okay with me. I never said to attack or bludgeon, but if after informed and offered a free tank and they still refuse to do anything for the fish, none of their other supposed "good qualities" would matter at all to me. They'd have to at least try.

I am LOW INCOME (not mega successful like he says she is) and as soon as I learned, I began going backwards on my own needs to help my fish because their lives depended on me. I have tried so hard to help my fish in any and all ways I can. I am still learning and still trying to be a better keeper. I have spent money I don't have try and help fish.

I just... NVM. Obviously it is going over my head. I recently told admin and a few other members that I didn't feel like I fit in here. And this does solidify that feeling. I hope the fish get a better home. In the end that's what everyone (I hope) wants.

Edited by mjfromga

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I brought kit!

Here is a question for Mjfromga... considering the fish show zero signs of distress, why would she just automTically believe me that her fish need a bigger tank?

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I brought kit!

Here is a question for Mjfromga... considering the fish show zero signs of distress, why would she just automTically believe me that her fish need a bigger tank?

Why not show her information? Surely you realize there are lots of online resources for such? If she still refuses to believe it, then I will hold my tongue on her entirely but *ahem*. Also, if she doesn't believe the things you tell her, then your relationship will have a lot more problems than a small goldfish tank. This goes especially considering your fish background, which I assumed she knew/knows. I'm running in circles now. Have a nice evening. Edited by mjfromga

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Here are the results. I would say ammonia is around 4 to 8, nitrite 0, nitrate looks around 80, ph very low...6??? Is that possible?

She feels terrible and wants to get rid of them asap. She has to talk to the kids. She said nitrate is poison in hot dogs that causes cancer so her fish are in cancer water. I believe it may be mission accomplished.

f6295a4a014b90b23da0dab21bbebd17.jpg

432f9b0b32b6492281fa4432ebf41905.jpg

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You got to remember she did not come here. If she came here for help then we would have more leverage to press our points. In this case in a way we intruded into her life and mindset without invitation. In that rearguard we have to be careful not to push too hard or risk coming off as a aggressive radical community. If we do then this place would start to crumble and we would lose any respect or believability to the average fish keeper.

It's the same as when you see someone in a pet store buying several goldfish and a 5 or 10 gallon tank. You can suggest that they rethink their perches and try to educate them but if they refuse you have to let them be. The pet store may have the authority to say no we won't sell you that but as a bystander if we become too aggressive or pushy the result is usally detrimental to one's self. In this case banding from the store is the probable result and if you band then you can't ever help anyone there again.

I hope this helps :hug

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That's good news DP!

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That sort of low pH is due to the high organics. Changing out 10-25% of the water once a day for a few days will help them gradually acclimate to better conditions without shocking them. They should be able to go back to a store or another tank at that point with no ill effect.

The ammonia isn't surprising, that and the nitrates go hand in hand. Like I said, just gradually change out w bit of the water and you're golden. They should be just fine if we go carefully. Shaking out her filter pad is also a good idea, but don't clean that too aggressively for obvious reasons :)

Edited by Arctic Mama

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Here are the results. I would say ammonia is around 4 to 8, nitrite 0, nitrate looks around 80, ph very low...6??? Is that possible?

She feels terrible and wants to get rid of them asap. She has to talk to the kids. She said nitrate is poison in hot dogs that causes cancer so her fish are in cancer water. I believe it may be mission accomplished.

f6295a4a014b90b23da0dab21bbebd17.jpg

432f9b0b32b6492281fa4432ebf41905.jpg

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Good job, Jason.  I had a feeling she wasn't a bad person...just uninformed about the world of Goldfish.  Now, thanks to you, she knows and seems willing to let them go to a better situation :)

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Jason, I think you are going about it absolutely the right way. And I am totally happy that you are dating someone who sounds overall pretty excellent.

Good luck with everything, and keep us updated.

______________

Myra, being a part of any community doesn't mean that we agree with everything everyone says or does. I am sure admin appreciates having you here, as does everyone.

On the other hand, my mortal enemies are Jared and Lisa S. :rofl:hi

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That is GREAT news!! She must just have had to see it with her own eyes.

 

I would definitely try to taking them to one of your local fish stores or calling ahead and seeing if they would be willing to take them off her hands. :)

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On the other hand, my mortal enemies are Jared and Lisa S. :rofl:hi

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Drat!  Lisa, I thought we vanquished him once and for all!  Get the Prazi.  I told you we should have used the powder and not the liquid!!!

Edited by Jared

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I'm guiding her through a small water change, letting the water sit overnight to dechlorinate!

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That sort of low pH is due to the high organics. Changing out 10-25% of the water once a day for a few days will help them gradually acclimate to better conditions without shocking them. They should be able to go back to a store or another tank at that point with no ill effect.

The ammonia isn't surprising, that and the nitrates go hand in hand. Like I said, just gradually change out w bit of the water and you're golden. They should be just fine if we go carefully. Shaking out her filter pad is also a good idea, but don't clean that too aggressively for obvious reasons :)

The low pH has protected them from the ammonia.  Raise the pH without a major decrease in ammonia and they are poisoned.  If doing small changes, RO water may be your best bet.  

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I agree we don't want to poison them with the ammonia - is RO really necessary though compared to normal aged tap water? I've not had a need for it yet but I'd love to see some research or articles on the benefit of it in smaller doses over another water source.

Edited by Arctic Mama

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I agree we don't want to poison them with the ammonia - is RO really necessary though compared to normal aged tap water? I've not had a need for it yet but I'd love to see some research or articles on the benefit of it in smaller doses over another water source.

Taryl,

RO water is not buffered, so it will not be able to affect the pH. That is why Sharon suggested it. In any scheme where you want to disturb the pH the least, change slowly, and use RO, because then you are influencing the pH changes the least.

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It depends on the tap water pH and KH.  If I mixed my tap water with low KH low pH water like she has in the tank, the pH would go up fast.  If her pH is near 7, it will probably work fine.

 

RO water just dilutes.  It has no KH at all, so it will dilute the ammonia without raising the pH.  That's the only reason for using RO water.  Once the ammonia gets down to 2 or so, you could switch to tap water and add Prime.

 

(Oh, that dog with the goggles just sniped me.)

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And now here comes the potentially very controversial suggestion :rofl

If it were me, I would hold off on doing anything just yet. It seems to me that things are at an equilibrium. The tank has a lot of the nitrogen products, but the pH is also pretty low, which protects them from damage. Functionally, it seems to be the case. I have not of observations of darting fish or ammonia burns, etc.

I would see what she decides about the fish. If she does make a commitment to keeping them, then implement the changes.

I say this because they are currently in a state of equilibrium. If you start tinkering with it, you will want to bring it to a satisfactory end, whatever that may be.

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I'm guiding her through a small water change, letting the water sit overnight to dechlorinate!

WOOOT!!

 

Good on you DP :thumbs:

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That sort of low pH is due to the high organics. Changing out 10-25% of the water once a day for a few days will help them gradually acclimate to better conditions without shocking them. They should be able to go back to a store or another tank at that point with no ill effect.

The ammonia isn't surprising, that and the nitrates go hand in hand. Like I said, just gradually change out w bit of the water and you're golden. They should be just fine if we go carefully. Shaking out her filter pad is also a good idea, but don't clean that too aggressively for obvious reasons :)

The low pH has protected them from the ammonia.  Raise the pH without a major decrease in ammonia and they are poisoned.  If doing small changes, RO water may be your best bet.

Excellent point on the low pH keeping ammonia toxicity low. I always forget about that.

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And now here comes the potentially very controversial suggestion :rofl

If it were me, I would hold off on doing anything just yet. It seems to me that things are at an equilibrium. The tank has a lot of the nitrogen products, but the pH is also pretty low, which protects them from damage. Functionally, it seems to be the case. I have not of observations of darting fish or ammonia burns, etc.

I would see what she decides about the fish. If she does make a commitment to keeping them, then implement the changes.

I say this because they are currently in a state of equilibrium. If you start tinkering with it, you will want to bring it to a satisfactory end, whatever that may be.

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You are always great at bringing up something that runs against conventional wisdom and support it in a way it's hard to argue lol.

I've missed seeing you on the fourm. Welcome back :)

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I agree we don't want to poison them with the ammonia - is RO really necessary though compared to normal aged tap water? I've not had a need for it yet but I'd love to see some research or articles on the benefit of it in smaller doses over another water source.

Taryl,

RO water is not buffered, so it will not be able to affect the pH. That is why Sharon suggested it. In any scheme where you want to disturb the pH the least, change slowly, and use RO, because then you are influencing the pH changes the least.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sharon - Makes total sense - though I'd be trying to carefully increase the hardness as well for stability reasons, we wouldn't want to cause any sort of osmotic distress with the animals when they're not showing symptoms.

Alex, I see your point as well on doing nothing, but if they are rehomed or moved to a different tank it would make more sense to have them acclimated to the local available water source first than possibly shocked by someone carelessly handling them - that's my thought in slowly adjusting the water.

Either way, as long as the fish are protected and not made worse than their current stable condition I'm happy :)

Edited by Arctic Mama

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