Jump to content
Kokos Goldfish Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Sammy El-Tawil

Right, Let's Do This, Oranda/Butterfly Infections/Fungus/Cysts

Recommended Posts

Me again,

Firstly, I'm suffering currently from depression, sorry in advanced, I've not listened fully to your advice, this has been massively depressing me, this year has been so crap for me, and Goldfish have been my enjoyment including my Pond which is totally fine, I have many extremely Large Carp/Goldfish/Koi and they're all fine, and they're so low maintenance also which is ironic.

I asked many weeks ago and was told to treat for Flukes, and I did once or twice if I remember, again I'm not in the best of ways, I treated two tanks and it seemed to help one tank, not the other. I never treated my main show tank and they didn't have any symptoms, until now, and it's bad.

I've asked Waterlife, I've asked so many LFS, I've asked fish vets, I've asked breeders, and no one knows the problem, I've been told it isn't flukes, I've been told it's probably Parasites, but with such a broad spectrum I don't know what to bloody do, no one does mucus scrapes, I have one number to ring that might perform me a mucus scrape on one fish.

So I have one Oranda in a 100L, she's bottom sitting and gasping when I'm not in the room, when I'm in the room she's like any other fish. She has raised cysts/spots on her tail and pelvic fins.

http://youtu.be/6opvkiOyUhs

http://youtu.be/TIH5TZA4gEA

http://youtu.be/HlfLDN9JyEk

I have a baby Oranda in a small QT, now she too bottom sits and gasps, but she looks fine, she did have blotches all over her fins and tail but they no longer exist on her.

Finally I have a 450L show tank with my Oranda and Butterfly, they act fine, no flashing, they're swimming miles daily, but the Butterfly has a small, fungal possibly growth on his tail, and the Oranda has the dreaded spots coming on his tail and pelvic fins, the same as the new Oranda that I saw grow into massive cysts.

http://youtu.be/gS408CzrzNg

Apart from appearance, the show tank Oranda and Butterfly are tilting slightly to the right, maybe overfeeding or balance issues from being in a new large tank?

The new Oranda in the 100L was sleeping upside down the other night, and when you feed her large food, she chews it sometimes and flips upside down, but she's choosing to do it?

I'll get you water test results, but for months, everything is fine apart from a slight rise in Ammonia at 0.25, but this has been a problem lately as when I test my tap water, I get the same reading.

Medications on hand, salt, FlukeSolve, Interpet anti white spot and fungus, Protozin.

Small advice from others, get the tanks up to 0.1% salt as a general tonic, I believe it's 1 tbsp per 5 gallons. One LFS who I kinda trust as he has extremely expensive fish has stated to treat with Protozin first as the symptoms are bad.

Thanks, and I hope we can sort this out, if we do, I'll be forever thankful.

Edited by Gainzster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not able to take this one with my current schedule (I'm out of town and on limited internet). I wish your fish the best of luck and hope you can find a way to treat your depression and feel better :grouphug

Please fill out the Disease and Diagnosis (D&D) form linked in the main disease forum, we want to see your tank right before a water change to see how bad/good it can be when there is the most organics/decay in the system. Additionally, please give us:

* Very details description of each tank

* Every occupant of the tank, how long you have had them, how long they've shown symptoms

* What treatments have been done on each of them/when the treatment occurred.

This will help us very much in getting you the best and least conflicting advice. Once again, I wish your fish and you the best. Please do follow *all* the advice given to you by our helpers and do not go to other sites or fish people for their advice - this can lead to contradictions, confusion, and sometimes even injury to the animal. Pick *one* source to trust and resist getting a gazillion opinions, okay? We have seen in the past that this backfires more often than not!

Edited by Arctic Mama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My BEST to you with your Goldfish and depression.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks.

Results as usual.

Ammonia in all three tanks are around 0.10.

PH in all three tanks are above 7.4

Nitrite in all three tanks are all 0

Nitrate in all three tanks are not above 25.

Tap water PH is above 7.5, I tested yesterday and it was 0.10 ammonia, today it's 0.

Main tank 450L, Calico Tank 100L, Baby Oranda 40L (she's tiny).

Calico Tank running for 2 years, Main tank 3 months, Small tank 4 months.

Main tanks fish I've had for 2 years, zero problems until they were moved and I've touched other tanks/fish.

Calico 2 months, Baby 3 months.

I use Tap Water Conditioner, have used one dose of FlukeSolve in two tanks previously and a 1 tbsp per 5 gallon salt mixture. Main tank has had zero meds.

The fish are feeding like horses, the calico has spots as seen in the video and bottom sleeps/gasps sometimes. Baby Oranda acts pretty normal, she sleeps but nothing major, but she gasps sometimes. Main tank, no gasping, no sleeping, Butterfly has white growth as seen in video, Oranda has the start of pale dots/cysts on bottom of tail and pelvic fins.

Edited by Gainzster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My thinking is this, based on what I've read and from a reputable LFS who deals with many exotic fish, my fault not buying from him.

Dose main tank at 0.1% salt.

Dose baby tank at 0.1% salt.

Dose Calico with Protozin for 6 days followed by 2 days of rest and the dose with FlukeSolve if needed.

Edited by Gainzster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know this annoys, but please copy the form, paste it in your post and type your answers after each question.   We get lost easily trying to find the information we need when data comes in some other form.

 

Please copy & paste fill the following form and fill it out to the best of your ability when requesting help for Goldfish Problems:

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank)
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank)
    • * Nitrate level(Tank)
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap)
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap)
    • * Nitrate level(Tap)
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?
      • * Water temperature?
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?
      • * How often do you change the water and how much?
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size?
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners?
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often?
  • * Any new fish added to the tank?
  • * Any medications added to the tank?
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank) 0.10

* Nitrite Level(Tank) 0

* Nitrate level(Tank) 20

* Ammonia Level(Tap) 0

* Nitrite Level(Tap) 0

* Nitrate level(Tap) 5

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.4

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.5+

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API

* Water temperature? 70

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 450L, 100L, 40L. Two months, two years, 4 months.

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? FX6, Fluval u4 and u2.

* How often do you change the water and how much? Multiple times a week at 50%

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 2 days ago, all tanks 50%

* How many fish in the tank and their size? 450L two fish, 8 inch and 4 inch, 100L 1 fish 7 inch, 40L 1 fish, 2 inch.

* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Tap water API

* What do you feed your fish and how often? Few times a week, twice a day.

* Any new fish added to the tank? Nope, but possible cross contamination.

* Any medications added to the tank? No

* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Salt many weeks ago, one treatment of FlukeSolve a few weeks ago.

* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

Large Oranda has a few bloody streaks on his tail, and pale white dots scattered, he swims fine but he seems to be tilted to the right slightly when not moving as much, but he sleeps perfectly central. Butterfly as shown has a small white growth on tail. Large Oranda in 100L has large blobs on her tail and fins as shown and sometimes gasps and bottom sleeps, small Oranda no physical signs, slight gasping as times.

* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom sitting. Stated above, but all fish are massively hungry at all times.

Edited by Gainzster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The white spots probably consist of thickened slime coat at sites of irritation.  Flukes often cause the irritation.  One treatment with Fluke Solve probably doesn't eliminate enough flukes to prevent their regrowth.

 

I recommend you do a series of salt dips on each of your fish.  These will strip away slime coat and expose parasites for treatment with Fluke Solve.  The spots should come off by the end of the dips.

 

Start with a large water change in each tank.  Add Fluke Solve to each tank.  Maintain Fluke Solve treatment for two weeks.  Whenever you change water, add Fluke Solve to the fresh water.

 

Give each fish a dip in 1% salt.    All should be able to "last" 5 minutes.  Record and report any who do not.  

 

The next day give all those who lasted 5 minutes in 1% salt a dip in 2% salt.  Repeat the 1% salt dip for those who did not last 5 minutes.  Record and report how long each fish lasted in its dip.  

 

Continue this pattern until all fish have received a 3% salt dip.  Do not go higher than 3% without further  instructions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the reply.

God is this really the only option I have? I'm freaking out putting an 8 inch Oranda into a salt mixture that I've had for well over 2 years, he's like my child.. I freak out changing his food. The Calico I don't mind as she's new..

Off the top of my head, would adding a small dosage of salt to all tanks and dose with two weeks of Fluke Solve be a more gentler way? I know it's easy for you to do this but it's freaking me out a little with the whole if they last kinda stuff?.. Let me know.

Thanks Shak.

Edited by Gainzster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the reply.

God is this really the only option I have? I'm freaking out putting an 8 inch Oranda into a salt mixture that I've had for well over 2 years, he's like my child.. I freak out changing his food. The Calico I don't mind as she's new..

Off the top of my head, would adding a small dosage of salt to all tanks and dose with two weeks of Fluke Solve be a more gentler way? I know it's easy for you to do this but it's freaking me out a little with the whole if they last kinda stuff?.. Let me know.

Thanks Shak.

 

I would highly suggest that you follow Sharon's advice to the T. It is understandable that you are concerned about how your goldfish might handle the salt dips, and that is why she recommended started at 1% and then gradually working your way up to 3%. Salt dips promote and stimulate the slime coating on fish and so that's why they are naturally able to withstand certain concentrations of salt water. As for the "if they last stuff" that is meant to direct you to keep a keen and direct eye on observing your fish during the salt dips. If the fish is having a hard time staying upright during the salt baths, that's when you remove him and put him back in clean water. If you keep an eye on them while doing the salt dips they should be fine. Make sure to keep a log on how long they last in the salt dip till they show signs of struggle.

 

I don't want to sound mean or arrogant, but I do remember that you have had these problems in the past and I suspect that had you followed the directions that disease mods gave you the first time, you wouldn't be in the curious predicament you are currently in with your fish.

 

Since the disease mods believe this is fluke related, you really should follow their advice to the T. Flukes are incredibly hardy and their life cycle make it very difficult for total eradication. Just look around at the Fluke related topics and you can see why the disease mods recommended this type of treatment. One of the concerns I see in your method of treating flukes is that if you slowly raise the salinity levels and dose with fluke solve, you still might not address the problem of unhatched fluke eggs that may be lying dormant in your aquarium/equipment/fish. Further, you will see that once you look into Flukes, there is talks that they are "smart" in that they can sense the praziquantel in the water and prevent the fluke eggs from hatching till there are no more signs of prazi in the water and when the prazi is out of the water (after your 2 week treatment) the eggs will hatch again, beginning another cycle of flukes. Lastly, on top of all of this, there is a split consensus on the efficacy of praziquantel in the water with salt.

 

Confused about flukes yet? Follow Sharon's advice and your fish should get better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you weren't scared to do your first salt dip, you would probably be the first person in the history of Kokos to feel that way.   :)

 

I'm sorry for a poor choice of words.  How long they "last", just means how long before they roll onto their side, as described in the link.  At that point you take them out and put them in clean aerated water.  

 

Usually, we start with 3% salt.  Some fish will roll over in 30 seconds.  (Goldfish do tend to act like real drama queens.) As long as you take them out promptly, they recover quickly.  If you repeat the dip a day or two later, they will last far longer, often 5 minutes.  I 'm starting with 1% salt because goldfish can live long term in that concentration of salt so the dip will not distress them much at all.  Going through a 1% dip, makes them more ready for the 2% dip, which, in turn, makes them ready for 3% salt -- the effective dose.

 

Putting goldfish in low salt concentrations long term can:

 

serve as a step in slowly raising the concentration of to 0.3%, which can kill some bacteria and parasites with prolonged treatment;

soothe a a stressed or injured fish;

make breathing easier for a fish with gill damage;

select for parasites and pathogens with resistance to salt.

 

The last has forced a continual increase in the salt concentration needed for treatments.

 

At one time,  you could actually kill flukes with long term salt baths.  No more, since flukes have become salt resistant.  Now the salt dips expose flukes for treatment, and long term baths at 0.3% salt can help heal the wounds left by flukes killed by medications such as Fluke Solve.

Edited by shakaho

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you weren't scared to do your first salt dip, you would probably be the first person in the history of Kokos to feel that way. :)

I'm sorry for a poor choice of words. How long they "last", just means how long before they roll onto their side, as described in the link. At that point you take them out and put them in clean aerated water.

Usually, we start with 3% salt. Some fish will roll over in 30 seconds. (Goldfish do tend to act like real drama queens.) As long as you take them out promptly, they recover quickly. If you repeat the dip a day or two later, they will last far longer, often 5 minutes. I 'm starting with 1% salt because goldfish can live long term in that concentration of salt so the dip will not distress them much at all. Going through a 1% dip, makes them more ready for the 2% dip, which, in turn, makes them ready for 3% salt -- the effective dose.

Putting goldfish in low salt concentrations long term can:

serve as a step in slowly raising the concentration of to 0.3%, which can kill some bacteria and parasites with prolonged treatment;

soothe a a stressed or injured fish;

make breathing easier for a fish with gill damage;

select for parasites and pathogens with resistance to salt.

The last has forced a continual increase in the salt concentration needed for treatments.

At one time, you could actually kill flukes with long term salt baths. No more, since flukes have become salt resistant. Now the salt dips expose flukes for treatment, and long term baths at 0.3% salt can help heal the wounds left by flukes killed by medications such as Fluke Solve.

Scared is an understatement, I'm bricking it as its extremely different to the treatment suggested 10 days ago.. It was suggested to treat with FlukeSolve only.. Now I'm doing salt dips, the situation is pretty much the same, except my Baby Oranda is spot free and she seems perfectly healthy, but my Large Oranda is gasping slightly then going back down today, the same as the Calico has been.

Right, if I get the courage to do this, cross contamination, as I have three tanks. Does this mean three holding tubs, three buckets, how do I disinfect myself when handling different fish? And do the two fish in the main tank get treated in the same buckets and holding tubs?

Edit: I've just looked at my large Oranda and he's missing his left barbel thing on his head above his mouth? It was there yesterday, what the hell..

I should add these spots reappeared when I put the carbon back into my tank..

Edited by Gainzster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right today I'm free to do treatment.

I've noticed something today, no gasping, no bottom sitting.

But the Calico has tiny worms coming out of the spots! They are so tiny, brown/green little things. Either that or dirt that looks like worms. I feel like when I put the light back on they receded in?

I will not treat any tanks until advised.

Edited by Gainzster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've given my recommendation above.  You may do it or not as you prefer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...