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ChrissieA

Thoughts on Fiona

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Two days ago Fiona literally swelled up over night. Given the recent issues I've had with swelling/dropsy I thought I'd check here

results are for the 10g quarantine tank she's been in since the 7th of April

Test Results for the Following:

* Ammonia Level(Tank) 0

* Nitrite Level(Tank) 0

* Nitrate level(Tank) 0

* Ammonia Level(Tap) 0

* Nitrite Level(Tap) 0

* Nitrate level(Tap) 0

* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.5-8. Much closer to 8

* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) exactly the same as the tank

Other Required Info:

* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Colombo drops

* Water temperature? 20 degrees

* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 10g qt, almost a month

* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? No filter just an air pump

* How often do you change the water and how much? Every second day, 75%

* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Yesterday

* How many fish in the tank and their size? 1, all three are in separate 10g totes

* What kind of water additives or conditioners? Aqua safe

* What do you feed your fish and how often? Pellets, mosquito lava, home made gel food. Have been feeding lightly since in qt. once a day

* Any new fish added to the tank? No

* Any medications added to the tank? Nothing for Fiona

* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. She was prazi'd in the main tank in February

* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? She has blackened fins

* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Nothing, perfectly happy. Not at all constipated, very active

I'm wondering if it's eggs? Or she's sick like the others were? It's definately not constipation. The swelling is quite different to theirs, it's further down in her abdomen, where as Dudits and Frank swelled from behind the head, around the pectoral fins. I've been watching her like a hawk as she was the only one who didn't show any symptoms and she was perfectly normal one night and swollen the next morning.

image_zpssfgc4het.jpeg

image_zpsvbki4aow.jpeg

I'm also not sure what's happening with her fins which are getting progressively more black. I'm wondering whether she's colour changing as she seems to be getting a darker colour on her body as well. Like there's a darker layer underneath if that makes sense? I know it's unusual to turn black, but honestly, I just don't see how it's possible that she got ammonia burns in the tank. It had been cycled for at least 7 months, I tested regularly, no ammonia and even if I had a weird cycle crash that corrected quickly, my water change schedule would have meant the concentrations couldn't have gotten that high. The other fish don't have it and there were no other signs of high ammonia.

If they were ammonia burns shouldn't they have cleared up by now and not be getting more? It almost looks like dye running up her fins. Her colour has faded in qt so the black isn't as black but there's more of it!

Are there any other causes of this? Should I be worried?

Fiona when we first go her 6 months ago

WP_20151115_13_33_29_Pro_zpsupkjmkhv.jpg

April 7th when they came out of the tank

image_zpsgskz9mug.jpeg

Today

image_zps5nxkqftw.jpeg

Thank you :)

Edited by ChrissieA

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Why are the fish in QT?

 

Does Aqua Safe neutralize ammonia and nitrite as well as chlorine and chloramines?

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Okay, I just looked it up and it doesn't.  I would recommend using Prime rather than (Aqua Safe) daily in the QT since it is not cycled to keep ammonia and nitrite neutralized.  This is particularly important on the day in between the water changes.  Blackened fins are usually an indication of a water quality issue or healing.  Since, I see no evidence of fin damage, I'm guessing there is a water problem.  How big is Fiona?  You may want to switch to daily water changes.

Edited by Jared

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In the pics, the water looks a bit cloudy :idont

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I removed them all from the tank a month ago as it was determined here that something in there was making them sick. 1 developed severe dropsy, the other started to show swelling and raised scales a few weeks or so later. They're in totes until we can put them in the new tank which will hopefully be very soon. We're just in the process of DIYing.

I had this thread on Dudits at the start of April http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/124028-somethings-happening-in-my-tank/

And this one at the start of march on the severely dropsied Frank, who is now very happy and healthy http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/123874-possible-infectiondropsy/

Not sure about the aquasafe and ammonia/nitrite but there is no ammonia or nitrite anyway. Not in the qt's and not in the tank

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I removed them all from the tank a month ago as it was determined here that something in there was making them sick. 1 developed severe dropsy, the other started to show swelling and raised scales a few weeks or so later. They're in totes until we can put them in the new tank which will hopefully be very soon. We're just in the process of DIYing.

I had this thread on Dudits at the start of April http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/124028-somethings-happening-in-my-tank/

And this one at the start of march on the severely dropsied Frank, who is now very happy and healthy http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/123874-possible-infectiondropsy/

Not sure about the aquasafe and ammonia/nitrite but there is no ammonia or nitrite anyway. Not in the qt's and not in the tank

So, do you test her QT daily for ammonia and nitrite?  It would be unusual for there to be no ammonia in an uncycled QT on the second day before a water change, especially in a 10 gallon.  When I do an every other day water change schedule in a QT, I always Prime the tank on the day in between.

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Did you see my post #3?

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There was no water quality issue in the way of ammonia or nitrate though. The tank had been cycled for 7 or 8 months, I tested frequently with no traces in the tests and I did 2 x WC's weekly, 80% and 50%. She had the fins when she came out of that tank.

In qt I've been feeding lightly and the highest ammonia reading I've had is 'almost' zero, it went from bright yellow to not so bright with the slightest tiniest green tinge and nowhere near the next reading on my kit which is 0.5. That's only happened once.

She's in a glass bowl on the kitchen sink for the photos, I'm not sure if that's why the water looks cloudy.

I'm certain it's not ammonia or nitrite, so any other thoughts?

Does the swelling worry you at all? I'm more concerned about that, the fins are just curiosity because I don't understand it lol

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I test every second day before the water changes, I changed 75% yesterday. I tested again this morning to fill in the form

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I test every second day before the water changes, I changed 75% yesterday. I tested again this morning to fill in the form

Okay, I've reported this since I wasn't around for your earlier threads regarding the problems in the main tank.  Let me see what the others have to say and we'll get back to you :)

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No problem, thanks jared, I appreciate the help! :)

The swelling actually is my main concern given the state poor Frank ended up in. I got a little sidetracked with the fins because it's more confusing, but the swelling is stressing me out

Edited by ChrissieA

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I am actually going to order the api test kit too. I tried to order it and prime and some other foods a few weeks back but everything I wanted, except the test kit, couldn't be delivered to the netherlands. Story of my life. The colombo one only goes up in decent sized increments, for eg the ph chart shows you colours for 7.5 and then 8. So the inbetweens are a guess. But the ammonia is definately the bright yellow of the chart which is zero.

A while back I ran a little experiment cycling some unused gravel in a vase because I wasn't sure the nitrate test was working properly. I gave up on the test due to lack of time but not before I saw a range of ammonia, so I know the ammonia test is good.

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To me, the first picture shows a fish that looks either very thin, has flared gills or both.  I don't see swelling.  In the second picture, I see a slight widening of the body about midway.  I still  see a very thin fish.  A healthy comet looks like this from the top:

 

IMG_0980.jpg

 

Younger (and thus slimmer) fish here:

 

IMG_0066.jpg

 

Behind the gills the body width is the same or wider than at the gills.

 

 

The picture from 6 months ago also looks like a thin fish with flared gills.  

 

Compare that with these young fish.

 

IMG_0039.jpg

 

How long did you prazi in February?

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You'd picked up the flared gills when I first got her... I thought they'd 'unflared' since then.... I hadn't thought about it but she has lost weight... Oh geez... Maybe I don't have ammonia in the qt because I've been under feeding them?

I just looked back at pics of them in the tank and they've all lost weight... Argh I was so worried about the water I'm starving them :( Fiona was quite stout before.... I hadn't noticed...

I did two rounds in feb. In November I did it following the directions on the label (as you advised) because it was a prazi and levamisole mix, but they started flashing again near the end of feb. I needed new prazi and the new bottle didn't have levamisole in it. It was around the time of a debate on the prazi protocol and I saw you (I think) and some other experienced members say you all did the 2 doses, leaving it in for 7 days I think, before dosing the second. My memory might not be exact on the details, but I followed that. It worked and there's been no flashing since.

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How lightly do you feed?  While perhaps you feed less than they need to get fat, thinness more often indicates internal parasites.  Prazi will can kill tapeworms, but not roundworms., and protozoan parasites can also invade the digestive tract.  

 

Do you have salt in the QTs?  Do the other fish have flared gills?

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I give Frank 3-4 pellets or equivalent size in other food, Fiona 5-6 and Dudits 7-8 because of size. I'm going to get my bf's parents good scales today and weigh everyone to work out what I'm doing with the feeding

They were levamisole'd in nov (with the prazi) which I think does most of the worms, could they have gotten something else since the? I havnt added anything to the tank.

No salt, they're just in water. I think the others gills are fine

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Try 0.3% salt for Fiona.

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Hope they feel better.

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Ok, ill take it to 0.1% this evening.

How long do you suggest I keep the salt in?

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Goldfish in general have no problem living in salt at 0.3% so plan to keep her in it for at least a month.  

 

Have you weighed the fish and the pellets yet? I'd like to see if she fattens up with more food.  Can you get duckweed?  She can eat all she wants of that.  Duckweed in the tank soaks up ammonia.

 

You might get a sponge filter for her QT.  Unfiltered QTs do cycle if you don't scrub them with every water change.  If you increase her food, you want to give the nitrifiers some more growing surface.

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Ok, should I add salt to the others too? I really need to have them in the big tank before we go away but I also don't want to infect the new tank either...

I did weight them, first time, they're tiny. The 'good scales' turned out not to be great, but from what I can tell, 1g of pellet is 480 pellets. They're very small. So I have been totally starving the poor things. Now is just feel awful. I forgot about the duckweed but I'll start looking again and see what I can find, there's some on amazon, but we might be able to find on maarktplaats the Dutch one.

I added some of the nylon rope we're using as media in the pond filter. I put it in Friday in anticipation of feeding more. Is that enough? It's sitting ontop of the air bubbles from the pump.

So in light of my stupidity, should I salt them all and ramp up the feeding? Obviously that means more water changes

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So how much do the fish weigh? 

 

If the other fish have no symptoms, maybe you should move them to the big tank.

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Frank is 6g, Fiona is 11g and Dudits is 19g

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You suggested above that your scale might not be accurate.  Do you trust those weights?   For most powdered substances, 1/4 teaspoon weighs about one gram.  I use measuring spoons for feeding, and usually feed about 1/4 teaspoon per adult fish.   Actually I measure out food per pond and adjust it by observation.  If the water isn't clean, reduce feeding. If the fish polish off the food in seconds, increase feeding.

 

Can you show current pictures of the other two fish?  If they look and act healthy and the big tank is ready, they should move there.  That reduces the water change work.

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I misread your post about a quarter tsp so I measured out 1 tsp... And then counted... As you can see, I got to 300 pellets and stopped but there's still a huge amount left. Not sure how that relates to weight, but I hope it helps with a visual. That's a small plate too.

image_zpshm1o7veb.jpeg

Here are photos of the other two. The tank is a few days from being ready. We had small leaks in the top corners when we raised the water level above the top frame. Just looks ugly with drops of water and white staining so my bf revealed the top corners. When that's finished drying the tank is ready

Do they look ok? I'm second guessing myself completely now... And am somewhat nervous the new tank, at the moment I can't handle any more fish!

Here's Dudits, she was doing well, she'd had some tears in her tail in the tank and they'd cleared up but I noticed today she has another one

image_zpsbwxmccot.jpeg

image_zpsw3tilqam.jpeg

image_zpsjvj0mybu.jpeg

And Frank, doing well after his pretty severe dropsy

image_zpszwrq4wmo.jpeg

image_zpsp1canxlf.jpeg

image_zpsvpgavu6h.jpeg

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