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RobertTheOranda

Moved 1 large oranda and 1 raunchu to new 40gB tank. Came home to lifeless oranda. He's still fighting!

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Hello All, First post here. I was directed here to get some help for my gold fish. I understand my current fish setup isn't ideal by any means, but im working with what i have. I thank you in advance for your help, It really is greatly appreciated.

 

Basically - I had 5 goldfish, 1 LG Oranda, 1 Lg Fantail, 1 LG raunchu and 2 small orandas all in 1 40g Breeder. This was a temporary set-up. They have been in that tank for 6-8 weeks, steady large water changes 3 times a week and they all looked happy. I added 2 more 40g breeders to split them up into for a total of 3 goldfish tanks and I was waiting for them to cycle. The fish have gotten so big over the past few weeks that I decided to move the largest to an uncycled tank.

 

The first move was the large oranda and fantail. I moved them on Sunday night to an uncycled tank. I guess I really underestimated the amount of bioload on the tank, I was expecting 3x 50% weekly water changes enough to get over the uncycled tank. They were both fine for two days, I came home tuesday night to the oranda barely breathing (I thought he was completely dead). I carried his body over to the tank he came from, gently moving him in the water and holding him over an air stone. Slowly he started breathing, then gulping and after about an hour of holding him there he was breathing steady. I released him and he just sunk to the bottom. I moved the rauncu back too, he is doing 100% a-ok. I checked on him every 15 min for 4 hours. By the time 4 hours passed he was finally starting to swim right side up. I felt comfortable he was going to survive the night so i went to sleep.

 

I woke up to Robert looking like nothing happened. He however wouldn't eat. I tried Hikari Lion head, Hikari Oranda Gold and Soylent Green. I went to work and then came home and did a 60% water change since the tank load is so high. A few hours later i tried to hold him and feed him some soylent green. After that his balance was really off and i knew he wasn't as healthy as I thought. Here I am - desperate for help. I will attach my information below this.

 


Test Results for the Following:
* Ammonia Level(Tank)
     0
* Nitrite Level(Tank)
      .25 ppm
* Nitrate level(Tank)
      20 ppm
* Ammonia Level(Tap)
      0 ppm, no visible green tint but a pretty dark Yello
* Nitrite Level(Tap)
      0
* Nitrate level(Tap)
      0 ppm
* Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
      7 to 7.2
* Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
      7.6 or 7.8
Other Required Info:
* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?
      Api master kit
* Water temperature?

      68F
* Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?

     40g breeder, over a year
* What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?

      SunSun 404b
* How often do you change the water and how much?

      3x weekly, ~50%


* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?

     Today, 60%
* How many fish in the tank and their size?

     5 goldfish, 1 LG Oranda, 1 Lg Fantail, 1 LG raunchu and 2 small orandas

* What kind of water additives or conditioners?

     SeaChem Safe
* What do you feed your fish and how often?

     Once or twice daily, Mostly hikari pellets, oranda gold and lionhead. Few times a week they get Soylent green.
* Any new fish added to the tank?

     No
* Any medications added to the tank?

     Salt - enough to reach a 1.2% solution, 1cup of salt total
* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.

     I put 1 cup of salt to reach just over a 1% solution after my water change today.
* Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

     They all look healthy, The oranda in question has no white spots and all his color has come back.
* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

     His balance is clearly off, a few hours ago before the water change and me trying to feed him his trajectory seemed off, hed hit the sides of the     tank harder then normal. He also seemed to if he lost his balance he would "fall backwards" and kinda do a 1/4 back flip. He also does not seem to be eating, even with me presenting soylent to his mouth.

 

 

 

Please let me know if there is anything else you need from me. Thank you again for your help.
 

 

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Is Robert the the large Oranda? I hope they will both be ok

I'm sure a mod will pick up on this soon :)

Some pics or a video would help the mods too :thumbup2:

Edited by Speckles

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So, Are all 5 fish back in the cycled 40 gallon? The first thing I would do is stop feeding the fish for a couple of days while you get this under control.  This will help keep the water parameters in a safe zone.   How have you been cycling the two new 40 gallon tanks?

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What kind of filters are on the other two 40 Breeders?  

 

Did you test the water from the tank you pulled the Oranda out of to see what might be the problem?  That might help us determine the cause.  

 

Your pH seems to be dropping from the tap to the tank.  It might be wise to test your KH and buffer it with Baking soda.  There is a link about this under my signature.

Edited by Jared

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So, Are all 5 fish back in the cycled 40 gallon? The first thing I would do is stop feeding the fish for a couple of days while you get this under control.  This will help keep the water parameters in a safe zone.   How have you been cycling the two new 40 gallon tanks?

All 5 fish are back in the cycled tank.

 

I have been cycling them by placing older media in them and a few pieces of flake in both. It had only been 1-2 days but I did a water change in both before I moved the fish over.

 

I will stop feeding them, I was feeding them a lot trying to get Robert to eat and then scooping the food out. So I will stop that.

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What kind of filters are on the other two 40 Breeders?  

 

Did you test the water from the tank you pulled the Oranda out of to see what might be the problem?  That might help us determine the cause.  

 

Your pH seems to be dropping from the tap to the tank.  It might be wise to test your GH and buffer it with Baking soda.  There is a link about this under my signature.

 

Both of the other tanks are identical to the existing 40 Breeder, sunsun 404bs. The only difference was that the new tanks had no substrate.

 

I will look into the GH.

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Okay, cool.  What kind of salt are you using (aquarium, canning, kosher, etc.)?  One cup is about 48 teaspoons, so that's a bit more than 0.1%.  What are you treating specifically with the salt?

Edited by Jared

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Here are some pics!

 

right after I found him - trying to get him to breath. He lost all his color in his wen, felt lifeless.

 

UoQQMmb.jpg

 

After an hour he was breathing away but could not stay upright.

 

fhGpH3I.jpg

 

Robert after me trying to feed him, it messed up his balance again.

 

VrDXzKF.jpg

 

Robert about 5-10 min ago, his face looks a lot rougher then i saw earlier. Probably from rubbing the sand last night.

 

EDcYh7S.jpg

Edited by RobertTheOranda

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Okay, cool.  What kind of salt are you using (aquarium, canning, kosher, etc.)?  One cup is about 48 teaspoons, so that's a bit more than 0.1%.  What are you treating specifically with the salt?

I'm using aquarium salt, I was originally treating nitrite toxicity last night - kind of a "it cant hurt" type thing. He showed good progress over night so I re-added it today.

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So, is the 0.25 Nitrite reading in the form above for the cycled tank or the other tank?  Can you test the 2 new tanks and post the water parameters?

 

Don't you love all my questions :rofl

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So, is the 0.25 Nitrite reading in the form above for the cycled tank or the other tank?  Can you test the 2 new tanks and post the water parameters?

 

Don't you love all my questions :rofl

That is from the cycled tank, I did a water change on all of those tanks today. I did test the water last night after I pulled robert out and it was 1-2 ppm in the tank Robert was in. The temp was fine, but there was no air stone in that tank either. I didn't realize that till I saw him slumped.

 

Ask away! Do you think i should go higher then the .12 % salt concentration?

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So, is the 0.25 Nitrite reading in the form above for the cycled tank or the other tank?  Can you test the 2 new tanks and post the water parameters?

 

Don't you love all my questions :rofl

That is from the cycled tank, I did a water change on all of those tanks today. I did test the water last night after I pulled robert out and it was 1-2 ppm in the tank Robert was in. The temp was fine, but there was no air stone in that tank either. I didn't realize that till I saw him slumped.

 

Ask away! Do you think i should go higher then the .12 % salt concentration?

 

Okay, so it might have been the Nitrite.  If you have the Sunsun agitating the surface of the water, you shouldn't need an airstone.  I think the salt is fine since we're not treating for parasites.  Add the Seachem Safe to the cycled tank daily with or without a water change to neutralize the nitrite.  You might also consider this:

 

Instead of cycling both new tanks simultaneously, just cycle one and use the other as a holding tank for during water changes.  That way, you could do 100% water changes in the cycled tank instead of just 50%.  You could just fill the holding tank with fresh, temperature matched water (with Seachem Safe), throw the fish in there while you empty the cycled tank completely and then return the fish once the cycled tank is refilled.  

 

Once the second tank is cycled, move two large fish into that tank and then begin cycling the third tank.  Once that tank is cycled, move the largest one of the three remaining fish from the original tank to that tank.  

Edited by Jared

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So, is the 0.25 Nitrite reading in the form above for the cycled tank or the other tank?  Can you test the 2 new tanks and post the water parameters?

 

Don't you love all my questions :rofl

That is from the cycled tank, I did a water change on all of those tanks today. I did test the water last night after I pulled robert out and it was 1-2 ppm in the tank Robert was in. The temp was fine, but there was no air stone in that tank either. I didn't realize that till I saw him slumped.

 

Ask away! Do you think i should go higher then the .12 % salt concentration?

 

Okay, so it might have been the Nitrite.  If you have the Sunsun agitating the surface of the water, you shouldn't need an airstone.  I think the salt is fine since we're not treating for parasites.  Add the Seachem Safe to the cycled tank daily with or without a water change to neutralize the nitrite.  You might also consider this:

 

Instead of cycling both new tanks simultaneously, just cycle one and use the other as a holding tank for during water changes.  That way, you could do 100% water changes in the cycled tank instead of just 50%.  You could just fill the holding tank with fresh, temperature matched water (with Seachem Safe), throw the fish in there while you empty the cycled tank completely and then return the fish once the cycled tank is refilled.  

 

Once the second tank is cycled, move two large fish into that tank and then begin cycling the third tank.  Once that tank is cycled, move the largest one of the three remaining fish from the original tank to that tank.  

 

That's a fantastic idea - I will do that.

 

Do you think he will make a full recovery? When should I try to feed him next?

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So, I would really pull back on feeding until you get everybody into the three tanks.  Fast them for a couple of days.  I promise they will be fine.  A hungry fish is better than a fish in water with high nitrite.  After that, do one small, daily meal of the Hikari pellets and hold off on the Repashy until they are moved.  Try to address the KH.

Edited by Jared

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Oh, and let's observe him for a couple of days to see if he snaps back :)

Edited by Jared

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OMG! Robert is amazing! :wub:

Things seem to be looking up, I'm so happy for you and Robert.

 

I just noticed your signature before and feel a bit silly on my earlier question "Is Robert the large Oranda" :doh11:

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You have been getting good advice.  I'd like to suggest something a little easier for rapid cycling. 

 

First,  5 goldfish in a 40 gallon cycled tank getting frequent water changes, while not ideal, does not constitute a dangerous situation.  Safe will protect your fish from ammonia and nitrite concentrations up to 1 ppm.   You only need a teaspoon of salt per ten gallons of water to protect against nitrite.  I suggest doing your next few water changes with no salt added.

 

Please put both of your new filters in the tank with the fish.  This will seed the filters with nitrifiers.  Change all of the water in the two new tanks, adding just Safe. These will be at the same temperature as the tank with the fish within a few hours, and provide a source of temperature-matched water for changes.

 

After a week, add 4 teaspoons of salt to the second tank.  Then add one of the new filters and one of the fish (ideally the smallest).  Measure parameters daily and use water changes as needed to keep ammonia low enough for Safe to protect the fish.  At each water change, add enough Safe for the full 40 gallons even if you are changing a much smaller volume.  When you have zero ammonia and zero nitrite two days in a row without water changes, move another fish into the tank.  Again, smaller is better.  Test and change water as before.

 

At this point, you can move the other new filter and one fish into the last tank or you can wait until tank two has fully cycled.  Usually two weeks in a cycled tank will have a filter well seeded.

 

 

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That's an interesting idea.  I thought about having him put one of the new filters on the cycled tank.  But, don't you think putting 3 Sunsuns on one tank might cause too much current and stress the fish :idont

Edited by Jared

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Welcome to Kokos.

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I don't know those filters, and I did think about water flow.  Can you control the flow rate? 

 

With the current water change schedule, he should not have a problem maintaining water quality, so if he seeds the new filters one at a time, that works too.

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I don't know those filters, and I did think about water flow.  Can you control the flow rate? 

 

With the current water change schedule, he should not have a problem maintaining water quality, so if he seeds the new filters one at a time, that works too.

They have a spray bar that has quite a kick.  And, since the Oranda is having balance issues, it might be hard for him to mange the current.  2 filters might be okay if one of the spraybars is aimed down or against a side.

Edited by Jared

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I have a lot of bio media in the one sunsun, 2 trays of scrubbies, I should be able to half that when the time comes to split them again. The two sunsuns in one tank is really a lot of current, I have two aqua clear 70s from another already cycledtank that I can move into the new 40 to aid in cycling. Should be plenty.

 

I did another 60% water change today, nitrates were at 5-10 ppm after the water change. Robert still seems "off", kinda aloof and uncoordinated - and I haven't seen him scavenge for food at all. But other then that he looks pretty good. I also didn't add salt after the water change.

 

Him not trying to eat is worrying me - brain damage isn't a concern here is it?

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Oo, gosh I hope not! :o I really hope he can bounce back.

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I have a lot of bio media in the one sunsun, 2 trays of scrubbies, I should be able to half that when the time comes to split them again. The two sunsuns in one tank is really a lot of current, I have two aqua clear 70s from another already cycledtank that I can move into the new 40 to aid in cycling. Should be plenty.

 

I did another 60% water change today, nitrates were at 5-10 ppm after the water change. Robert still seems "off", kinda aloof and uncoordinated - and I haven't seen him scavenge for food at all. But other then that he looks pretty good. I also didn't add salt after the water change.

 

Him not trying to eat is worrying me - brain damage isn't a concern here is it?

I doubt he has has brain damage.  Not eating is usually an indicator that that the fish is stressed or not feeling well, but they can go for many days without food and be fine.  

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Fed them a very small amount of the hikari pellets today, maybe about a teaspoon. Robert still didnt consume any, despite heading to the bottom a few times. Just didn't inhale anything.

 

Last time I saw him eat something was sunday - starting to get worried.

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