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Bmitchell486

Lethargic, slightly sideways fish

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  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tank) 10 (water change is due today)
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap) 0
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0
    • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.2
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.0
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Freshwater Master Test Kit - Drops
      • * Water temperature? 70
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 72 gallon bowfront, almost 6 years
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Fluval 406
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? 90% once a week
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 7 days ago (will do a water change today)
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 5.  Three 6in ryukin/veiltail (including tails). Two 2 inch ranchu's.
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Fluval water conditioner @ time of water changes.
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Soilent Green in the AM, Bloodworms in the PM, and NLS pellets a few times a week.
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? No
  • * Any medications added to the tank? Yes - today is the last day of my 2 week round of Prazi.  I do this twice a year.
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. As stated above, Prazi twice a year.  I do two 7 day rounds in a row.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? No
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Yes.

 

Angel, my white ryukin is almost 6 years old, and has always been my most active fish, and the quickest to eat.  For the last few weeks, he's been hanging out at the bottom of the tank.  He only does this when I'm not around.  I see him hanging out at the bottom (not breathing quickly, just looks like he's resting) but as soon as I approach the tank, he is up and swimming just fine the whole time I'm there.  I've continually tested my water (2-3 times per week) and my levels are always good.  Since he was hanging out around the bottom, that's what prompted me to give them a Prazi treatment, since the last one I did was October of last year.

 

Today, I noticed that in addition to him hanging out at the bottom of the tank, he's slightly rolled to one side.  As soon as I approach the tank, he is up and swimming without any hint of bouyancy or balance problems.  When I saw him slightly off balance when he was chilling on the bottom, I decided to put him in QT and make a thread here.  He's just in regular water with .1% salt.

 

Also, I want to clarify, when I say he's on the bottom, his body isn't actually on the bottom of the tank.  He just stays low enough so that his fins are touching the bottom.

 

Meds I have on hand: salt, Prazi, Seachem ParaGuard, Seachem KanaPlex, API General Cure (Prazi and Metro).

 

Below are the pictures of him in QT that show him hanging out kind of sideways.  Again, when he swims he doesn't have balance problems, just when he's on the bottom.  I couldn't get pictures of him doing it in his regular tank bc he would always spot me approaching the tank and swim up.

 

IMG_9190.jpg

 

IMG_9191.jpg

 

Here's some videos I took of him once I got him into QT.  The first video, he's swimming around, but I think it's not happy to be in QT because he's acting super lethargic in this:

 

The second video, I waited for him to chill on the bottom and you can see him sideways leaning on the heater:

 

Thanks in advance for the help!  

Edited by Bmitchell486

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Hiya. I love Ryukins. He sure doesn't look happy. I think I may see the beginnings of pineconing too, but perhaps not. Hopefully a moderator will be along soon. He's a ripe age, hope he gets better!

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Sorry, when I copied/pasted the DD form, the spaces were not there.  I tried to edit it, but didn't help.

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Hiya. I love Ryukins. He sure doesn't look happy. I think I may see the beginnings of pineconing too, but perhaps not. Hopefully a moderator will be along soon. He's a ripe age, hope he gets better!

 

Thanks!  Yes, I've been watching him like a hawk for pineconing and have yet to see it.  I have a glass cube observation tank, put him in it and took him out into the sun a few hours ago (feel like I can see them best in sunlight) and really looked him over.  If I see any traces of it, I will be sure to post a pic.

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Awesome. Some fish just don't have as smooth of scales as others, sp that's excellent. Pulling for the little guy. He has pretty fins :)

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He looks a bit swollen but not pineconed. are his eyes usually set so far from his face or is this bulgy for him?

Another question - confirmed male? Or are you just guessing?

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He looks a bit swollen but not pineconed. are his eyes usually set so far from his face or is this bulgy for him?

Another question - confirmed male? Or are you just guessing?

 

Hey! So, I can't know this for sure, but he doesn't seem more swollen than normal to my eye.  But he certainly could be.

 

Yes, he always has bulgy eyes.  Sometimes I think they amost look telescope, but they're not.

 

I'd say he's confirmed male.  He's normally got lots of breeding stars on his pectoral fins and gill plates, but in the last 6 months he's had less.  He also used to chase my female ryukin around.  Never had any eggs in the tank until my female ryukin joined over a year ago.  

Edited by Bmitchell486

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For comparison, here is a picture of him one month ago, with his belly :)

IMG_8659.jpg

 

And here's his breeding stars about 6 months ago, and a year ago.  I figured his breeding stars had kind of lightened up since our house is cooler in the winter than in the summer...

FullSizeRender.jpg

 

FullSizeRender%201.jpg

 

The ones on his pectoral fins can get to where they look like a growth or a mass.  I have always wished he didn't have that, and was glad when it went away over the winter.

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When did he last poop? Was it normal? Thick? Bubbles or clear casing?

The listing and lethargy *could* be constipation and pressure against one lobe of his swim bladder. Slowly raise the aquarium temperature to 78 over the next few days. If you can feed him exclusively soft plant foods like repashy, duckweed, algae or seaweed for a week and report back in on how he is doing that would be the conservative course of action in the absense of other symptoms.

Let me know if any other issues like clamping, enflamed tail or gills, rolling or laying on the bottom, or dropsy come about, okay?

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Some of the pictures show some redness near the base of the tail or other fins.  Is that just the picture or real?  If real, is does he always have this?

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Some of the pictures show some redness near the base of the tail or other fins. Is that just the picture or real? If real, is does he always have this?

I noticed that too but chalked it up to the lighting. I'm vascillating back and forth between an infection or constipation bit figure treating the latter first is a less stressful step and if it is an infection more symptoms should appear during the treatment week for constipation.

The redness on the pectoral fin also had me a little concerned but that can be normal for some fish, it just depends!

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When did he last poop? Was it normal? Thick? Bubbles or clear casing?

The listing and lethargy *could* be constipation and pressure against one lobe of his swim bladder. Slowly raise the aquarium temperature to 78 over the next few days. If you can feed him exclusively soft plant foods like repashy, duckweed, algae or seaweed for a week and report back in on how he is doing that would be the conservative course of action in the absense of other symptoms.

Let me know if any other issues like clamping, enflamed tail or gills, rolling or laying on the bottom, or dropsy come about, okay?

 

Ha, you know I was thinking last night that someone was going to probably ask me about poop, so I snapped a few pictures last night when I noticed him going.  I'm not an expert on poop, but it looked normal to me.  Not thick and no bubbles:

 

IMG_9201.jpg

 

IMG_9207.jpg

 

IMG_9210.jpg

 

I will switch out his heater and slowly raise the temp to 78.  I'll also feed him only Soilent Green -- he loves that stuff.  I don't have duckweed, algae, or seaweed on hand.  I will also be sure to let you know if any other symptoms develop, or if anything worsens.  This morning he was still hanging out towards the bottom, but he wasn't leaning sideways.  I didn't feed him last night or this morning - thought a 24hr fast might be a good idea for him.

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Some of the pictures show some redness near the base of the tail or other fins.  Is that just the picture or real?  If real, is does he always have this?

 

Hey Sharon!  So, he always has had some red veins in his tail -- I chalked it up to his white/clear fins.  They've never seemed to look inflamed, and they don't get lighter or darker (except that time he got ich and then his tail was full of dark inflamed red veins).  I can't say that I paid special attention to the base of his tail, so I will take a closer look when I get home this evening.  If he looks different from normal, I'll put him in my glass cubed observation tank and take some close up pictures and post them for you guys.

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Some of the pictures show some redness near the base of the tail or other fins. Is that just the picture or real? If real, is does he always have this?

I noticed that too but chalked it up to the lighting. I'm vascillating back and forth between an infection or constipation bit figure treating the latter first is a less stressful step and if it is an infection more symptoms should appear during the treatment week for constipation.

The redness on the pectoral fin also had me a little concerned but that can be normal for some fish, it just depends!

 

 

Okay, I will not add meds for now -- just feed repashy.  

 

Yeah, his pectoral fins have been crazy for years.  He for probably 3 straight years he's had large nobs, like breeding stars on top of breeding stars, and it's always a little pink.  It never got larger, smaller, or changed color for a very long time.  But over the winter, the large nobs on his pectoral fins went away, and most of the breeding stars on his gill plates went away as well.  I don't know if it's bc we moved to a new home (can water parameters affect this?) or if it was winter and the tank water was a few degrees colder.  Either way, I love the way he looks now that it's gone and I hope they don't come back!

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Oh, Sharon, if the redness you're referring to was from the pictures in post #8, then it also could be the fact that those are pictures that I posted on Instagram and sometimes I put an Instagram filter on it.  Those filters slightly alter the colors.  I often put a filter on pictures of Angel to correct the issues my camera usually has with taking pictures of a bright white fish.

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So, Angel does now have some redness on his tail.  One of his veins in his tail shows up a brighter red than usual, and there is some redness around the edges.  It doesn't look bad yet, just noticeable.  I think this is probably due to ammonia levels in his QT tank.  

 

He's in a 20 gal tote, but I have only been putting 10 gallons in so it's shallow.  Even though we don't know what's causing his issues quite yet, I thought it might bring him some relief if he was in shallower water.  I've changed 100% of the water every single day.  Last night after I changed the water and was putting him back in the tank is when I noticed the redness, so I didn't get a chance to test the ammonia levels.

 

I'm thinking I should give him 20 gallons of water.  What do you guys think -- what's more important here - shallow water or higher volume?  If you think shallow water is more important, then I will change 100% of his water 2x a day.  Normally I do the changes at night, but I got up earlier this morning to give him another 100% change so his ammonia wouldn't get high again before I get a chance to change it tonight.

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Shallow water is best for him right now. If you feed lightly once a day and use Prime, you'll only need to change the 10 gallons of water once a day. Prime will detoxify 1ppm of ammonia for 48 hours. You can safely redose every 24-48 hour if necessary. I would just change 10 gallons once a day.

Edited by LisaCGold

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Shallow water is best for him right now. If you feed lightly once a day and use Prime, you'll only need to change the 10 gallons of water once a day. Prime will detoxify 1ppm of ammonia for 48 hours. You can safely redose every 24-48 hour if necessary. I would just change 10 gallons once a day.

 

Thanks Lisa, I will keep him at 10 gallons.  I always use prime in QT since ammonia levels will raise since I don't use a filter in QT.

 

I think the changing water every 12 hours is probably the route I will have to go.  I didn't test the water this morning, but I did a 100% change.  This evening when I got home, 12ish hours later, I tested for ammonia and it was at .25ppm (I think) even though I did a 1 1/2 dose of prime this morning.  I'm an avid tester, and I've never had a trace of ammonia in my regular tank before, so although the .25 ammonia is low, do you think it could still be affecting him enough to irritate his tail? I fed him once yesterday, 4 "bite size" squares of soilent green, and have not fed him yet today since the water change.

 

Anyways, the pic below shows the parameters from my main tank.  It's actually been 10 days since my last water change... oops.  I'm usually a faithful water changer every Sunday!  But I will change it tonight.  I'm not super worried bc the nitrite is still at 5-10ppm.

FullSizeRender%202.jpg

 

Below is the ammonia test I did tonight for the QT tank, 12 hours after a water change and using prime:

IMG_9232.jpg

 

Below shows the angry looking vein in his tail.  Keep in mind, his tail wasn't red back when he was in the main tank.  This is new since QT:

IMG_9235.jpg

 

Below shows the red spots on his tail:

IMG_9241.jpg

 

So, I will leave him in 10 gal, use prime, feel little, and I am fine with doing 2x day water change.  Let me know if you guys think that .25ppm ammonia is unacceptable, and if I should give him more water.  Also, please let me know if you think there is another underlying issue (besides ammonia) that could be causing the redness in his tail.  Keep in mind, I just started the 12 hour water changes today -- the first few days he was in QT I was just doing a water change every 24 hours.

 

Sorry that I always write so much, but I always appreciate the help.

Edited by Bmitchell486

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Prime doesn't get rid of the ammonia per se, it binds with the ammonia effectively making it harmless to your fish. This binding also makes the ammonia bioavailable to beneficial bacteria, but that doesn't matter in this case because you don't have the bbs in QT. If you test for ammonia, and it is present, it will show up on the test. So if you are testing less than 1ppm of ammonia and are using Prime, your fish will be fine. Greater than 1ppm, you should do a water change.

 

I wrote earlier that Prime will detoxify for up to 48 hours. I just read Seachem's writeup on Prime. It is unclear if it is effective for 24 hours or 48 hours, so I would redose every 24 hours or do a water change.

 

Of course 2 water changes a day is also fine, but just in case you get busy, do know that Prime will give you some leeway.

 

Regarding redness in the tail, if you are using Prime as indicated above, the ammonia shouldn't be causing the redness. Of course your fish may be more sensitive. I'll leave it up to the mods or disease assistants to provide you further guidance on the redness.

Edited by LisaCGold

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Prime doesn't get rid of the ammonia per se, it binds with the ammonia effectively making it harmless to your fish. This binding also makes the ammonia bioavailable to beneficial bacteria, but that doesn't matter in this case because you don't have the bbs in QT. If you test for ammonia, and it is present, it will show up on the test. So if you are testing less than 1ppm of ammonia and are using Prime, your fish will be fine. Greater than 1ppm, you should do a water change.

 

I wrote earlier that Prime will detoxify for up to 48 hours. I just read Seachem's writeup on Prime. It is unclear if it is effective for 24 hours or 48 hours, so I would redose every 24 hours or do a water change.

 

Of course 2 water changes a day is also fine, but just in case you get busy, do know that Prime will give you some leeway.

 

Regarding redness in the tail, if you are using Prime as indicated above, the ammonia shouldn't be causing the redness. Of course your fish may be more sensitive. I'll leave it up to the mods or disease assistants to provide you further guidance on the redness.

 

This is why I LOVE you guys, and I LOVE this site!  I assumed that prime would change it from ammonia to something else, and it wouldn't show up on the test.  I thought that since it showed up on the test, that I must have already hit and surpassed the 1ppm mark.  That is such a relief to know that it will still show up on the test when you use prime but as long as it's below 1ppm that it's harmless to the fish.

 

Also, all these years, I've never used prime in my main tank bc I didn't want to get rid of the ammonia that my bacteria needs to survive!  I had no idea that you could use prime, but your bacteria could still feed off of it (or whatever bacteria does with ammonia).  My mind is blown. I always thought that everyone who was using prime was "starving" their bacteria for a day.  Thank you so much for answering my questions, and for taking the time to explain prime to me!  I really appreciate it.  It takes a load off my mind, bc I was feeling super guilty that he was sitting in water with ammonia in it today.

 

I'll wait for the mod's to comment on his tail.  He's still lethargic and hanging out at the bottom too... no improvement in his attitude.  But today and yesterday he is completely upright, and not leaning to the side anymore, so that's an improvement. 

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With the increasing redness in his tail I'd be comfortable beginning antibiotics at this point while continuing with soft foods. Refresh my mind as to what you have on hand and we will work up a treatment plan.

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With the increasing redness in his tail I'd be comfortable beginning antibiotics at this point while continuing with soft foods. Refresh my mind as to what you have on hand and we will work up a treatment plan.

 

Okay.  The meds I have on hand are salt, prazi, seachem paraguard, seachem kanaplex, and API general cure (metro and prazi).  I have a store near me that has an extensive medicine section, so I could probably get most anything I need today (USA meds), if what I have on hand isn't the right thing.

 

I'll keep him on soilent green.

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Hope he feels better.

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