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KiwiSugar

Oranda Wen Trim

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Hi,

 

I had a big oranda whose wen had run out of control.

He was very unhappy. Bottom sitting, banging into things, couldn't judge how to turn so always banging into things or against things. Very slow finding food, and pushed around.

 

His top and bottom wen had grown so much they meet, totally covering his eye on one side.

 

On the other side was just a tiny slit left for him to see out of.

 

The more I watched him the more sorry I felt for him in his quality of life.

 

I wasn't keen on doing myself. Then one day I wasn't too scared.

 

I did find a vet that would trim it, but I just about need to sell my car to pay for it.

 

 

I did a lot of research but the most helpful was Koko's video and comments.

Very inspiring. Some things just stuck in my head..........quality of life.......step by step.....careful of the light.....min cut, half that clove.....sterilize.....

 

I printed it and followed as well as I could.

 

I was alone, I had a timer set for one minute, just turn it and it ticks off one minute again.

 

One alteration for me was laying him down so I could use two hands.

 

One to hold the tweezers to lift the wen, and the other to cut.

I was more confident this way. Also bought some 3.5 zoom glasses which helped a lot.

 

The top part of the wen was easy, just a big flap but really really thick.

Wow he does have an eye I thought.

 

The Bottom of the eye was harder, it curved close to the eye. I could hold it up a little with the tweezers, but I struggled to cut it.

 

I was very conscious of how long I was taking and of possible other tools that may of helped me better.

better safe than sorry  so I took put him into the recovery water.

It was a scary time which I also felt in koko's comments as normal.

Happy to say he is fine.

I put him in the guarantee tank I had cleaned while he recovered, left the light off, big shock, cant see can see.

He now gets a fright when I approach because he couldn't see me much before and now bang I am there.

 

I can see I could of done a better job.

One side is just barely enough. It was the top wen that covered most of that eye.

The other side is more the bottom wen covering the eye which I didn't do very well.

 

I need some different tweezers and my curved scissors were too small.

This was my first attempt and I didn't want to overdo, most of all I wanted to make sure he would recover.

 

 

 

 I wanted to ask Koko can I use a scalpel for some? When can I try again safely .

It took the full ten minutes in the clove oil before he stopped wiggling properly, but didn't turn on his side like he was supposed to.

 

He was 120gm in may when I weighed him, but my scales aren't working now for some reason.

He is usually in a pond, on the deck with my tanks etc

Anymore advice appreciated

 

 

 

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Congratulations on your wen trimming!

 

When I did a wen trim, I chose not to use a scalpel because I felt more comfortable using curved scissors near the eyes. If you feel comfortable with using a scalpel near the eyes, then that should be fine. I think the key thing there is to cut away from the eye instead of towards the eye. You may find that practicing using the scalpel on something like fruit would help you gain confidence with the tool.

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i have not been in a position to do wen trimming, however, i have done surgeries of other kinds to goldfish. i don't think a scalpel will be ok to use, 1. because you are so close to the eyes (as LisaCGold mentions) 2. the wen is quite rubbery (as you noticed) and could send the scalpel off into other directions not intended.

 

cuticle scissors i believe work best. here is a wen trimming video from LisaCGold herself. i have looked this video over a few times and am left feeling very confident that if i were to be faced with wen trimming, i would be following her guidance via this video she created.

 

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/123435-wen-trimming/

 

you can choose to trim more off the wen if you think the entire wen is problematic to your goldfish, it will grow back to look normal shape, only smaller size until it fully grows again, but regrowth should be a lot slower.

 

the biggest scariest thing is sedating. you always feel like your fish will not wake up again. but, if you follow advice carefully, you should not have that problem.

 

check the procedures i have made in forum http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/forum/184-surgical-procedures/ you don't need to watch entire length f the videos, only the beginning where i have sedated, compare it to Lisa's sedating technique, and also, if you want to have your fish sedated longer, flushing the gills with the solution you sedated your fish in, will bring the best result. i found flushing the gills every minute (or sooner) had my fish feeling comfortable throughout the entire procedure.

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Hi everyone, thanks for the comments

 

Helen, what was leon's weight when he had surgery?

 

I wasn't thinking of using a scalpel for the whole procedure, just to help certain bits as a back up.

 

I had cuticle scissors (brand new) but could not cut through the lower part at all.

 

Before I try again I am going to collect more items, the better the range the more prepared I am

 

My oranda is quite big, I worried  the clove oil mix wasn't strong enough.

It was a full ten minutes he was in, but didn't turn on his side

I will try to weigh again properly before I try again.

 

I am struggling to sign up to photobucket to give you pictures

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I had already watched Lisa's video and it was a great help.

When I first watched Lisa's video, my stomach turned and swayed and I scrunched up my eyes

 

Once I believed his need was greater than my fear..................it changed me

 

is quite bizarre

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Helen, what was leon's weight when he had surgery?

 

 

i can't remember. between he and chubber (my two biggest fish at the time), both well over 200 grams, but at the time of his surgery(ies), i never once weighed him. so would say approx 200 grams. however, that shouldn't be a problem when trying to work out the clove oil, since we're medicating the water volume, not really referring to the fish's weight. that dosage that i used will treat 2 gallons, you can safely sedate any fish in there (that will fit). some take a little longer than others, but i don't believe that this is judged on the weight of the individual.

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ohhh great thanks Helen..................Worried I had under dosed

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Hi, did my second try of wen trimming today, Different oranda, smaller than the other one. Had everything ready as Helen and Lisa said. Did the clove oil, it looked like it was supposed to. Set the timer, at 10mins timer goes off, blankie kicked up a big fuss when picked him up, he swam around more, put back in, took out, he wriggled like mad. Wasnt sure what to do, he had his full ten minutes plus more.

 

Even on the table he wriggled, i had him timered when to put in med water and when to take out etccc

He continued to wiggle the whole time. Mostly I was looking to see what i could do, he has a very thin layer on his eye, I thought it was attached to the wen, it wasn't, it is dark like him, half way down  his eye is clearer. it is like a eyelid, but just stays there.

 

It took him so long to wake, I was really scared. Thought I had lost him.  I held him up for so long my fingers were wrinkly. 

But he was such a fighter i couldn't give up.

 

Once I was ready again

I did the one from last time, he went to sleep faster this time, was really good, i did the other eye that i hadnt been able to last time.

On the table the wen relaxes eye is really visible, but when in the water the weight of the wen makes it hang down more. 

I really struggle to make a difference with the bottom of the eye

I did a better job with him this time, he woke easy and was swimming around strongly very early.

 

Have you found this before, do they behave differently the very first time they are put to sleep?

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In the future you could try using MS-222 for sedation. It is much safer and reliable and the fish recover faster and this is coming from someone who used to use clove oil. 

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I've only done the wen surgery once. Most likely will have to do in several months. I'll know then if the fish reacts differently to sedation.

Helen probably has experience with sedating the same fish more than once.

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I've only done the wen surgery once. Most likely will have to do in several months. I'll know then if the fish reacts differently to sedation.

Helen probably has experience with sedating the same fish more than once.

MS-222 is the way to go. They go under fast and come out fast and it is meant for sedation and more than likely what a vet would use. I've used clove oil in the past and had no problems but would always reach for MS-222 in the future. It is much safer for the fish and less stressful to not only the fish but also the keeper. I always hated when my room smelled liked ham for a few days if I spilled some.  :teehee

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MS-222 = $40

Clove Oil = $4

Pretty clear which one I can afford! I hope I never have to resort to needing to sedate my fish, but I sadly don't think I could cough up that much for the sedation. :(

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MS-222 = $40

Clove Oil = $4

Pretty clear which one I can afford! I hope I never have to resort to needing to sedate my fish, but I sadly don't think I could cough up that much for the sedation. :(

If it comes down to a $35 discrepancy you shouldn't be doing the surgery in the first place and that is why I recommended MS-222. Scraping a fish or checking gills does not require sedation but putting a fish under for multiple minutes does. Clove oil fell out of favor years ago because of the time to induce sedation and the recovery time and that is reiterated in this thread with posters waiting 10 minutes for a fish to roll. That's not something I would be comfortable with, although it never took that long when I did use clove oil. It's also a product that will never be consistent among what posters here are able too obtain. 

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I don't think the dollar amount discrepancy has anything to do with trying surgery as a last resort to save a fishes life. As I'd ONLY be doing surgery for that reason because I don't even know how to do surgery as I got my first two fish last October, I think its fairly valid.

In addition, I saw the product you mentioned on a website for about $40 plus shipping, so wouldn't be hard to get my hands on in those terms, just expensive. Also, I don't think clove oil fell out of favor, as it seems most people still use it. In addition, it doesn't seem like 10 minutes is too bad, it took me longer than that to come round after a major procedure. But then I'm now comparing the two - which may not be appropriate.

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I don't think the dollar amount discrepancy has anything to do with trying surgery as a last resort to save a fishes life. As I'd ONLY be doing surgery for that reason because I don't even know how to do surgery as I got my first two fish last October, I think its fairly valid.

In addition, I saw the product you mentioned on a website for about $40 plus shipping, so wouldn't be hard to get my hands on in those terms, just expensive. Also, I don't think clove oil fell out of favor, as it seems most people still use it. In addition, it doesn't seem like 10 minutes is too bad, it took me longer than that to come round after a major procedure. But then I'm now comparing the two - which may not be appropriate.

I'll defer to your experience. Oh wait!

Edited by jetman73

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Lol - its as I said. Anyway, nobody seems to be in a tizzy about it so I'm not going to either. Fish wakes up from procedure and recovers - no harm, no foul!

I hope to never have to resort to this anyway. :)

Oh and you can defer to the experience of others who still use clove oil and see no issue with it - if you must defer to experience. I've never used any of it and hope to never need to.

Edited by mjfromga

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Lol - its as I said. Anyway, nobody seems to be in a tizzy about it so I'm not going to either. Fish wakes up from procedure and recovers - no harm, no foul!

I hope to never have to resort to this anyway. :)

Oh and you can defer to the experience of others who still use clove oil and see no issue with it - if you must defer to experience. I've never used any of it and hope to never need to.

Unless they don't. I've seen it with clove oil and heard stories but never with MS-222 unless it is purposely overdosed. What scares me about clove oil is the OIL factor and that it is no doubt coating the delicate gill filaments. 

For the OP MS-222 would be ideal and has a solid track record behind it. 

Edited by jetman73

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Just to ask, is there any research that says that the clove oil can damage gills? Surely people would not use it if that were the case. Accidentally overdosing any sedative can of course result in death, and strict rules DO have to always be followed when using anesthetics for surgical procedures. Thats just common knowledge.

If I had something that would lead me to believe that clove oil would cause permanent damage to my fish that would affect its quality of life beyond the procedure then I suppose I would try to cough up the extra money for the safer alternative. Truly.

But honestly from what I've read - clove oil is extremely safe and when administered carefully, will not cause death or adverse effects. Now this isn't me saying that you are not correct, because you very well may be, but everyone seems to say its perfectly safe if used carefully.

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You're getting way ahead of yourself and I'm tired of derailing this thread.

To sum up my thoughts:

I have seen first hand and heard of many people that have lost fish using Clove Oil

I have never had that problem but did have delayed inducement and recovery

I have no clue if it causes permanent damage but it IS an OIL and smells like ham

Oil in water will coat gill filaments, especially when you shake it up and disperse it. 

Every single dealer and breeder I have ever dealt with in the past would never use Clove Oil because it can be unreliable. Most of these dealers handle 100's of thousands of dollars worth of fish if not more. 

I'll trust them and the few Aquatic Biologists I have had the pleasure of learning from in the past.

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Ahead of myself by asking absolutely legitimate questions? Fair enough. Would be nice to be informed WAY AHEAD just in case I ever need to use these methods. I thought so anyway.

In any case - I get your point. Pharmaceutical approved medications made specifically for anesthesia purposes are better than alternatives in this case. Makes total sense and I won't argue it.

Oil of cloves is good for repelling fleas in cats and it doesn't smell like ham at all to me. Smells like rosemary or something strong and herbal like sage. To me anyway.

OP: Hope your fish recovers well! Sorry for hijacking your thread!

Edited by mjfromga

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I don't think the dollar amount discrepancy has anything to do with trying surgery as a last resort to save a fishes life. As I'd ONLY be doing surgery for that reason because I don't even know how to do surgery as I got my first two fish last October, I think its fairly valid.

In addition, I saw the product you mentioned on a website for about $40 plus shipping, so wouldn't be hard to get my hands on in those terms, just expensive. Also, I don't think clove oil fell out of favor, as it seems most people still use it. In addition, it doesn't seem like 10 minutes is too bad, it took me longer than that to come round after a major procedure. But then I'm now comparing the two - which may not be appropriate.

I'll defer to your experience. Oh wait!

 

 
i will address the OP's questions based on my experiences once my guests leave. but, i am writing this to both jetman73 & mjfromga. i am getting tired of these occurrences in the disease diagnosis threads. it must stop. the two of you have access to the PM system, i suggest you both use it to sort out your differences there. this is the last time i address a debate between you two in this forum. i respect that you are both knowledgeable on goldfish health issues, but debating on threads in this forum must stop. 

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Understood. He is actually very helpful to me. I will be sure to use the PM system to talk to him from here on out. I didn't mean to cause a disturbance, and I doubt he did either. I apologize. :)

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Oh wow....

KiwiSugar I'm sorry the first fish was so tough. That would have been terrifying. Good on you for getting right back in there and trying again with another fish. You obviously care a great deal about your goldfish :)

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Hi, did my second try of wen trimming today, Different oranda, smaller than the other one. Had everything ready as Helen and Lisa said. Did the clove oil, it looked like it was supposed to. Set the timer, at 10mins timer goes off, blankie kicked up a big fuss when picked him up, he swam around more, put back in, took out, he wriggled like mad. Wasnt sure what to do, he had his full ten minutes plus more.

 

Even on the table he wriggled, i had him timered when to put in med water and when to take out etccc

He continued to wiggle the whole time. Mostly I was looking to see what i could do, he has a very thin layer on his eye, I thought it was attached to the wen, it wasn't, it is dark like him, half way down  his eye is clearer. it is like a eyelid, but just stays there.

 

It took him so long to wake, I was really scared. Thought I had lost him.  I held him up for so long my fingers were wrinkly. 

But he was such a fighter i couldn't give up.

 

Once I was ready again

I did the one from last time, he went to sleep faster this time, was really good, i did the other eye that i hadnt been able to last time.

On the table the wen relaxes eye is really visible, but when in the water the weight of the wen makes it hang down more. 

I really struggle to make a difference with the bottom of the eye

I did a better job with him this time, he woke easy and was swimming around strongly very early.

 

Have you found this before, do they behave differently the very first time they are put to sleep?

 

 

yes, i have found this, and in the same fish. i have sedated 3 different fish, each took their own time responding to the sedation. Leon was sedated 8 times. he was consistent with his times, approximately 7 minutes to be fully sedated. the first few times, i pulled him out at 5 minutes, it wasn't enough. so he went in again for another 2-3 minutes and that was plenty. from there, i learned that he needed the full 10 minutes to be on the lighter side of fully sedated. he woke very quickly in the recovery tank.

 

on a few occasions, i had to wake Leon and then re-sedate him to stop blood flow from incisions that weren't clotting as expected. on the second round, he was asleep faster and woke in record time afterwards.

 

Chubber Chu needed approximately 15 minutes to be fully sedated, she needed longer to wake. i never felt that i would lose her tho, she was making small recovery signs and i knew that holding her over the air disc, that she would come to, eventually. and that she did.

 

another fish i had was a small fantail. she took the longest to be sedated. almost 16 minutes before i could manage her. i took her out at 8 minutes, then 12 and then at 16 minutes. she woke in good time, but i did need to hold her also.

 

none of my fish struggled or showed any signs of discomfort using the clove oil for sedation..

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

now..to address jetman73

 

You're getting way ahead of yourself and I'm tired of derailing this thread.

To sum up my thoughts:

I have seen first hand and heard of many people that have lost fish using Clove Oil - me too. mainly from those who are misguided and inexperienced to use it.

I have never had that problem but did have delayed inducement and recovery - each fish is different. humans are considered individuals, why can this not apply to fish?

I have no clue if it causes permanent damage but it IS an OIL and smells like ham - rubbish - it smells like cloves. if people season ham with clove oil, then draw no comparison to it's intended use on things other than food.

Oil in water will coat gill filaments, especially when you shake it up and disperse it. - there is no long term effect and my finned patients are proof of that.

Every single dealer and breeder I have ever dealt with in the past would never use Clove Oil because it can be unreliable. Most of these dealers handle 100's of thousands of dollars worth of fish if not more. - good for them

I'll trust them and the few Aquatic Biologists I have had the pleasure of learning from in the past. - good for you.

 

 

 

Lol - its as I said. Anyway, nobody seems to be in a tizzy about it so I'm not going to either. Fish wakes up from procedure and recovers - no harm, no foul!

I hope to never have to resort to this anyway. :)

Oh and you can defer to the experience of others who still use clove oil and see no issue with it - if you must defer to experience. I've never used any of it and hope to never need to.

Unless they don't. I've seen it with clove oil and heard stories but never with MS-222 unless it is purposely overdosed - and there you have it :). What scares me about clove oil is the OIL factor and that it is no doubt coating the delicate gill filaments.- and even if it does, it is very short term, otherwise i would have lost all the fish i made procedures on.

For the OP MS-222 would be ideal and has a solid track record behind it. - in my experiences, clove oil has a very solid track record too.

 

 

jetman73 - MS-222 is not available to the public in Australia... therefore, we use clove oil.

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Wow this thread is really interesting and great job on the wen surgeries :) I have some orandas in my pond and their wens are comical like the half their own height but thankfully from what I have seen their eyes aren't covered so hopefully I will never have to do surgery :D

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