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mickeyrom

A few questions from me, a newbie with Goldfish.

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I would not try to keep them in the 10. You're risking their lives about the same amount as you would by sending them back to Wal*Mart. Taking 2 to the pet shop and getting a 20 for your 3rd would be a great option, since then you don't have to worry about large future upgrades for a long time and will be appropriately stocked with just that one fish in that tank. You also wouldn't have to worry about only feeding a small amount, since weekly water changes would be easier in that environment.

 

Another thing I have noticed is that you only seem to be worried about ammonia in your tank. Nitrite and Nitrate are problematic as well, and should also be tested. Nitrate should stay below 40ppm, preferably below 20ppm, and Nitrite at 0. That is the main thing I would worry on with your current stocking levels, since the ammonia-eating bacteria can multiply very quickly but Nitrate needs to be removed through water changes. With 3 fish in 10 gallons of water, Nitrate would accumulate quickly to toxic levels. This is also why another filter isn't an answer to your problem either. The bacteria will only multiply to keep up with the bioload and no more than that, and the ones found in normal aquariums don't eat nitrate.

 

Again, in regards to outgrowing the tank, it would be more likely that they would die while in the process, especially if you aren't capable of large water changes for them. 

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I would not try to keep them in the 10. You're risking their lives about the same amount as you would by sending them back to Wal*Mart. Taking 2 to the pet shop and getting a 20 for your 3rd would be a great option, since then you don't have to worry about large future upgrades for a long time and will be appropriately stocked with just that one fish in that tank. You also wouldn't have to worry about only feeding a small amount, since weekly water changes would be easier in that environment.

 

Another thing I have noticed is that you only seem to be worried about ammonia in your tank. Nitrite and Nitrate are problematic as well, and should also be tested. Nitrate should stay below 40ppm, preferably below 20ppm, and Nitrite at 0. That is the main thing I would worry on with your current stocking levels, since the ammonia-eating bacteria can multiply very quickly but Nitrate needs to be removed through water changes. With 3 fish in 10 gallons of water, Nitrate would accumulate quickly to toxic levels. This is also why another filter isn't an answer to your problem either. The bacteria will only multiply to keep up with the bioload and no more than that, and the ones found in normal aquariums don't eat nitrate.

 

Again, in regards to outgrowing the tank, it would be more likely that they would die while in the process, especially if you aren't capable of large water changes for them. 

I am in the process of testing for nitrite, but I have no way of checking for nitrate. Is that another test kit I need to buy? I believe you about the toxic levels because of the overstocking. While the swim bladders seem much improved, two of the fish have clamped fins, so evidently time is running out. BTW, the nitrite level tested at 0.

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Nitrite should test 0 in a cycled tank, so that's awesome.

 

Yep, if you haven't got one already I would suggest picking up the API Freshwater Master Kit. It's the most accurate kit available, and overall runs less in price than strips per test, so works out pretty well. It's a drop test, which also lends to its' accuracy.

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Nitrite should test 0 in a cycled tank, so that's awesome.

 

Yep, if you haven't got one already I would suggest picking up the API Freshwater Master Kit. It's the most accurate kit available, and overall runs less in price than strips per test, so works out pretty well. It's a drop test, which also lends to its' accuracy.

I use drops for my tests. I have never had bad results, so lately I have not tested much. When I bought these kits, if memory serves, the guy at the fish store, a very reputable one, told me that those two were all  I would need. I will try to find one, and I get it that the strips are not very good. Still I am going to add a filter, and underfeed rather than over. That always has been my personal belief with our tropicals, and it applies to the "goldies" too.

Would a 29 gallon tank be enough, or a 40? I need to find out if there is any way I can use tap water, which would really simplify things.

I want to add that we have room for only 35" space in length of a tank. The 60 gal tanks are over 50". Do you remember somebody told me I can cycle the tank by simply using the filter from the old tank. If you agree, for how long would I need to run it before putting the fish in?

Edited by mickeyrom

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I would suggest a 40 breeder as minimum, but be aware that you'd have to upgrade in the future. (Hopefully not the near future.) That would be the minimum gallonage requirement, since a 40 Breeder really holds between 45 and 47 gallons of water when filled up. A 55g would be optimal, but if you feel that that is too much, then try for the 40B for awhile. 
 

I'm not sure that the 'reputable' fish store you speak about is all that knowledgeable if they don't know that you need kits to test all of the basic parameters. To me, that's in the same vein as "You will shock a fish if you change more than 10% of its water per month." Which people here who keep goldfish know is not true with regard to most species of fish in general.

There are very few things that apply to tropicals and goldfish in the same way, so be careful there. I had helped my father keep various tropicals for years, and the world of goldfish is nothing like what I was used to. It's practically like throwing out the rules and starting new. I do agree, though, that feeding less while the environment isn't ideal is a good thing.

Edited by ChelseaM

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A 40B should be fine.  It has close to the volume of a 55, and has better surface to volume ratio.  Your fish are not likely to outgrow it.

 

Chelsea, our guidelines say 15 gallons minimum for one goldfish.  The 40B provides that.  If you want to recommend a larger volume, that's fine, but please make it clear that this is your personal opinion and not Kokos guidelines.  In fact, one can keep healthy goldfish at 10 gallons per fish.  It just requires more work and more know-how, so we don't recommend it. 

 

Allan, please tell us what is wrong with your tap water.  Is it well water or municipal water?  What are you using to purify your tap water?  

 

If you are willing and able to change 10% of your water per day, you should be able to maintain adequate water quality for your fish.  Small daily water changes are the best approach when you have tap water of questionable quality.

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A 40B should be fine.  It has close to the volume of a 55, and has better surface to volume ratio.  Your fish are not likely to outgrow it.

 

Chelsea, our guidelines say 15 gallons minimum for one goldfish.  The 40B provides that.  If you want to recommend a larger volume, that's fine, but please make it clear that this is your personal opinion and not Kokos guidelines.  In fact, one can keep healthy goldfish at 10 gallons per fish.  It just requires more work and more know-how, so we don't recommend it. 

 

Allan, please tell us what is wrong with your tap water.  Is it well water or municipal water?  What are you using to purify your tap water?  

 

If you are willing and able to change 10% of your water per day, you should be able to maintain adequate water quality for your fish.  Small daily water changes are the best approach when you have tap water of questionable quality.

... I did say that a 40B would be fine and within guidelines. However, I really disagree that they won't outgrow it, after having many experiences to the contrary.

Edited by ChelseaM

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A 40b would be great, almost likely for life (if they're outgrowing it, you'll know it. It would take time to get there but it is a chance with any creature)! However, you'd still have to change out at least 60 - 80% of water per week.

BUT!!!! You could store water ahead of time so that water changes are easier. It could be placed into a large newly-purchased refuse bin used for outdoors and then use a pump to fill it back up.

Everyone's situations are different and that's totally understandable. We can't all use the same methods for water changes, just as I am currently bound to using 1 gallon milk jugs for water changes on my new guppy tank. It's not ideal, but it works for me and keeps me pain-free, as I also don't want to share the water changer for my goldies.

I understand its not everyone's thing when then realize that goldfish are not the bowl fish they were once stereotyped.

However, once they are in a proper sized tank, with an established filter, a light, and some TLC it is a lot easier. Feed them two to three times a day, do weekly water changes, and if all goes well, that's all they require. :)

Edited by Chai

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A 40B should be fine.  It has close to the volume of a 55, and has better surface to volume ratio.  Your fish are not likely to outgrow it.

 

Chelsea, our guidelines say 15 gallons minimum for one goldfish.  The 40B provides that.  If you want to recommend a larger volume, that's fine, but please make it clear that this is your personal opinion and not Kokos guidelines.  In fact, one can keep healthy goldfish at 10 gallons per fish.  It just requires more work and more know-how, so we don't recommend it. 

 

Allan, please tell us what is wrong with your tap water.  Is it well water or municipal water?  What are you using to purify your tap water?  

 

If you are willing and able to change 10% of your water per day, you should be able to maintain adequate water quality for your fish.  Small daily water changes are the best approach when you have tap water of questionable.

 Right now I am using water that is filtered by reverse osmosis, and this is the water I drink and what my fish live in. In addition I use Jungle start right before putting in the tanks. It is municipal water, but who knows where THAT starts.

Our water is bad enough that EPA says that old people and others should not drink it. Risk of infection by cryptosporidium and other micro contaminants.(pesticides, herbicides etc.)

How long after I cycle with the old filter can I put in the fish?  Do you remember that?

Edited by mickeyrom

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You can run both filters side by side with the fish in.

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You can run both filters side by side with the fish in.

 

LOL, I don't think you understood my question. After the new tank is set up and I put the filter from the original tank into the new one, how long do I have to wait before I introduce the fish into the new, presumably 40 gal. tank? I need to know, because the fish in the old 10 gal tank will still need filtering and I would need to buy another filter to use in the 10 Gal tank until the fish get transferred.

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She understood perfectly.

 

You can put the fish in right away, since you will be moving the cycle over by moving the filter over. You don't need to 'cycle' the tank, it will already be that way when you move the filter over because the cycle is in the filter. After about 2 weeks, if you need the filter for the 10 gallon on the 10 gallon again, you can move it back.

Edited by ChelseaM

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She understood perfectly.

 

You can put the fish in right away, since you will be moving the cycle over by moving the filter over. You don't need to 'cycle' the tank, it will already be that way when you move the filter over because the cycle is in the filter. After about 2 weeks, if you need the filter for the 10 gallon on the 10 gallon again, you can move it back.

"right away" I totally understand.

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Yep. Move the fish and the filter from the 10 gallon to the 40 gallon. Add your stronger filter (remember what I said above about how much filtration you need) and run both filters on the 40 gallon. If, in 2 weeks, you need that 10 gallon filter back on the 10 gallon tank, then you can move it back.

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A 40B should be fine.  It has close to the volume of a 55, and has better surface to volume ratio.  Your fish are not likely to outgrow it.

 

Chelsea, our guidelines say 15 gallons minimum for one goldfish.  The 40B provides that.  If you want to recommend a larger volume, that's fine, but please make it clear that this is your personal opinion and not Kokos guidelines.  In fact, one can keep healthy goldfish at 10 gallons per fish.  It just requires more work and more know-how, so we don't recommend it. 

 

Allan, please tell us what is wrong with your tap water.  Is it well water or municipal water?  What are you using to purify your tap water?  

 

If you are willing and able to change 10% of your water per day, you should be able to maintain adequate water quality for your fish.  Small daily water changes are the best approach when you have tap water of questionable.

 Right now I am using water that is filtered by reverse osmosis, and this is the water I drink and what my fish live in. In addition I use Jungle start right before putting in the tanks. It is municipal water, but who knows where THAT starts.

Our water is bad enough that EPA says that old people and others should not drink it. Risk of infection by cryptosporidium and other micro contaminants.(pesticides, herbicides etc.)

How long after I cycle with the old filter can I put in the fish?  Do you remember that?

 

 

OK, so now what do you think about our tap water? Can it be used in your opinion, and if yes, how should I prepare it?

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Do you have a report from your water company that details the problems?  I can get the annual reports from my city's website.    Cryptosporidium doesn't seem to be a major problem for fish.  What I would try is to get a large container for the tap water and filter the water in it through activated charcoal/carbon.  This should remove a lot of the organics.  Tell me what kind of container you want to use and I will tell you how to filter the water in it.

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I would not try to keep them in the 10. You're risking their lives about the same amount as you would by sending them back to Wal*Mart. Taking 2 to the pet shop and getting a 20 for your 3rd would be a great option, since then you don't have to worry about large future upgrades for a long time and will be appropriately stocked with just that one fish in that tank. You also wouldn't have to worry about only feeding a small amount, since weekly water changes would be easier in that environment.

 

Another thing I have noticed is that you only seem to be worried about ammonia in your tank. Nitrite and Nitrate are problematic as well, and should also be tested. Nitrate should stay below 40ppm, preferably below 20ppm, and Nitrite at 0. That is the main thing I would worry on with your current stocking levels, since the ammonia-eating bacteria can multiply very quickly but Nitrate needs to be removed through water changes. With 3 fish in 10 gallons of water, Nitrate would accumulate quickly to toxic levels. This is also why another filter isn't an answer to your problem either. The bacteria will only multiply to keep up with the bioload and no more than that, and the ones found in normal aquariums don't eat nitrate.

 

Again, in regards to outgrowing the tank, it would be more likely that they would die while in the process, especially if you aren't capable of large water changes for them. 

I am in the process of testing for nitrite, but I have no way of checking for nitrate. Is that another test kit I need to buy? I believe you about the toxic levels because of the overstocking. While the swim bladders seem much improved, two of the fish have clamped fins, so evidently time is running out. BTW, the nitrite level tested at 0.

 

Nitrate is 0, and ph is good, so everything checks out.

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What's 'good' for a pH? 

 

I'm surprised that Nitrate is 0, but it could be because you aren't feeding them much.

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I thought he was saying the nitrates were 0 in the tap. :hmm

Oh whoops misread. Definitely worth getting the water report online.

It may be safer for the fish than you think, or made safer by Prime and/or carbon cleansing

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I thought he was saying the nitrates were 0 in the tap. :hmm

Oh whoops misread. Definitely worth getting the water report online.

It may be safer for the fish than you think, or made safer by Prime and/or carbon cleansing

Nitrates 0 from the goldfishies  tank. PH from the tap,about 7.3

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I guess this is still on topic, I am feeding them every other day. I don't want them too hungry but at the same time I am concerned with possibly overfeeding them. I am not sure how much to feed three small fish, plus I plan to continue with the peas once a week. The pellets seem to not to sink as fast as they did the first time, so they are being eaten on the surface which is bad, right? I bought what I thought was veggie pellets, but when I opened the container, it looks more like powder. Should I include that in addition to the regular pellets? How does one decide how much to feed ?

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To decide how much to feed, you can go 1 of a few ways. Here are my two favorite ways:

 

1. Weigh the fish, then feed 1% of the bodyweight total over the course of the day in several feedings.

2. Give one mouthful per fish per feeding several times per day (aim for at least 3x) With small fish, this could be equal to even a single pellet per feeding.

 

Since you're feeding lightly, I'd suggest option 2 and do 2 feedings per day that way.

 

Could you give brand names for each food you bought, please? I really can't tell you if it's good to feed if I don't know what it is. :teehee

 

Are the current pellets you're feeding labeled as sinking pellets?

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HBH goldfish bites, Omega one veggie micro pellets.

BTW my wife is attempting to download a video of our tank, again. It will be on youtube. Title: Fancy Tail Goldfish.. named George, Gracie and Blanche. Not there yet. It is downloading incredibly slowly. Carol's videos are under  carolb777

Edited by mickeyrom

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If you would be able to, copy and paste the link to the video here once it's uploaded. :)

 

The veggie pellets are micro, so they are essentially powder. I bet they're made for fry or tiny tropicals. I don't see why you couldn't try to feed them to the goldfish, but can see how they might make a mess. Feel free to try it though.

 

So the Goldfish Bites are sinking pellets. I have this issue every once in awhile with my small sinking pellets, where they stay floating for a bit. Yes, it's not a good thing if the fish are eating from the surface. So try to make them sink. My favorite trick is to basically throw them at the water. They'll sink because they go below the surface when you apply a small amount of force. (And the goldfish will notice quickly because they make a sound) Another option would be to add them to a cup of tank water, then shake, then dump them in. Both ways work, it's up to you what one you use.

Edited by ChelseaM

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If you would be able to, copy and paste the link to the video here once it's uploaded. :)

 

The veggie pellets are micro, so they are essentially powder. I bet they're made for fry or tiny tropicals. I don't see why you couldn't try to feed them to the goldfish, but can see how they might make a mess. Feel free to try it though.

 

So the Goldfish Bites are sinking pellets. I have this issue every once in awhile with my small sinking pellets, where they stay floating for a bit. Yes, it's not a good thing if the fish are eating from the surface. So try to make them sink. My favorite trick is to basically throw them at the water. They'll sink because they go below the surface when you apply a small amount of force. (And the goldfish will notice quickly because they make a sound) Another option would be to add them to a cup of tank water, then shake, then dump them in. Both ways work, it's up to you what one you use.

Sounds like a plan. I think I will give the veggies to the Guppies, they might enjoy that. Maybe I can find some larger veggie bites. Do you approve of the weekly pea supplement? How about dried baby shrimp? I have some, but they do float and might be too big for our fish at this point in time.

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