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Glenn

Crazy idea crossing Prussian Carp with goldfish

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Well I finally got my hands on some yellow Prussian Carp. I've read that by crossing them (they are the same species) back into the goldfish that it may give rise to the expression of colors never seen before. I have 11 carp. I LOVE goldfish but for me they have lost the uniformity of their scales and the Prussian Carp are beautiful. Who knows maybe somewhere someone will want a really giant orange carp. Which type of goldfish do you think I should cross them with?

Glenn

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I would cross them with large common goldfish. Not only will they likely be the only fish that could handle the carp during spawning, but they are the closest genetically, which will produce the most viable offspring. I would then establish a line of those offspring until you get what you want, following that up with crossing with orandas to get syounai.

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Why are there two of these threads?

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merged :)

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Sorry guys, my bad. Just not used to the forum yet.

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Do you have any pics of your carp...what size are they? I've never heard of anyone selling carp before :).

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You should check out the breeding projects over at Goldfish Garage.

http://...................blogspot.no/search/label/Carassius%20subspecies

Those are YouTube videos from a japanese breeder who has access to some of the unusual goldfish subspecies.

Glenn- how did you identify them as Prussian carp and not feral goldfish?

Did you count the lateral line scales?

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I just ordered them. I hear there as big as 6.6 LBS they should be here by Friday. There the exact same species as goldfish. Like the difference between a poodle and a German Shepard. I read by crossing them back into goldfish the hypothesis is it might give rise to color patterns and colors not seen yet. The ones I purchased were yellowish

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They are a separate species as far as I know. Carassius gibelio and have a different chromosome count than goldfish.

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How will that work out fertility wise. I have a black comet that is either a Karp goldfish or koi goldfish breed. From everything I read he will most likely be infertile.

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Here's an article on C. gibelio.

Unlike C. auratus, the Prussian carp has populations that consist of triploid females that reproduce by gynogenesis (no males needed). There are also populations that contain diploid males and females (same number as C. auratus), and some that have both diploid and triploid. Apparently they can all reproduce.

Supposedly the syounai, the single-tailed ancestor of Tamasabas, were produced by crossing oranda-like goldfish with wild gibel carp.

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and suddenly I know the difference between parthenogenesis and gynogenesis...

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Here's an article on C. gibelio.

Unlike C. auratus, the Prussian carp has populations that consist of triploid females that reproduce by gynogenesis (no males needed). There are also populations that contain diploid males and females (same number as C. auratus), and some that have both diploid and triploid. Apparently they can all reproduce.

Supposedly the syounai, the single-tailed ancestor of Tamasabas, were produced by crossing oranda-like goldfish with wild gibel carp.

Those 2n diploid a vary from 94 to 100 so only a fraction of the diploid a could be compatible with goldfish. You'd also have to do some sort of phenotype cross as the triploid females can be fertilized by male goldfish but not receive any genetic contribution.

All these will make crosses difficult to understand what you are getting in the offspring.

I guess male Prussian to female goldfish will tell you the male's diploid if the eggs are good, but won't tell you if they are 2n=94 or triploid if the fail to develop.

You'd need a dominant phenotype in the male goldfish to female Prussian to see if she was diploid or triploid, if nothing hatched, then she is likely 2n=94.

Crazy stuff.

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Totally insane. I couldn't read much at one time because of brain spin.

I went back to reread the chromosome number stuff, and the 2n = 94-100 comes from their literature review. The diploids they karyotyped all had 2n = 100. The triploids had variable numbers from "microchromosomes, " which they consider supernumeraries.

Gaaaahh!

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The gynogenetic populations are really cool. They are essentially parasites on on the other populations. They use their sperm for activation and discard the genetics. There are some xiphorus species that do this as well.

These videos are from Japan from a passionate keeper interested in these non goldfish carassius. The text is his descriptions translated by Google.

http://...................blogspot.com/search/label/Carassius%20subspecies

Or if this link is prohibited go to goldfish garage and look for the label carassius subspecies.

Edited by Ichthius

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