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Hinfin

Ranchu fry diary, the works!

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:hi

Some have asked me to post my diary on the ranchu spawn I have. So I tried to compile some entries about the most important aspects of raising the fry. During these first weeks ive had a lot of help from breeders on the GFK forum, especially Gary Hater(Cincy ranchu) has been very helpful and I am thankfull for his guidance.

When reading this diary you will find info on the setup, food and husbandry I used in detail. There is also some basic information about culling ranchu and grooming them. Culling may well be the most important aspect in breeding ranchu, i want to breed heathy fish most of all.

Jan 20

My two black ranchu females have soft bellies! But none of the males have shown any interest in chasing the females, it almost seems the females are daring the males into chasing them…..

The females need to spawn that’s for sure, but what to do with the eggs? It would be great to grow them out but it will be a heavy commitment. I’m really reading a lot about raising fry and if I wake up a couple of hours earlier every day and do the rest in the evening it should be manageable. But we will see what happens next and just try and go with the flow.

Jan 24

I decided to put a smaller oranda male in the tank, I have seen him actively chasing another small females so I wanted to try if this would work. This would also mean I have to handspawn the ranchu. So searching the internet I came across this video on how to handspawn correctly. Many other video’s do not show the correct precautions you should take, very important is to place the fish correctly in your handpalm so when rubbing the belly you distribute even the smallest amount of pressure to the entire back, head and flanks. Keeping the fish head under water just stroke the belly with your fingertips towards the caudal fin. Do not attempt to press out the eggs, just gently rub with a pressure needed to lift a small object like a matchbox. If no eggs are flowing, she is not ready.

Jan 27

YES!! Did it!!

After a night of chasing, eggs were flying all over the tank this morning. I handspawned two batches, 1 large batch of about 500 chinese ranchu male X thai ranchu female eggs and after that a smaller batch of about 250 in which i put all together and let the little oranda contribute also because the chinese ranchu were not giving much milt anymore.

I think i rescued about 1/3 of the eggs, 1/3 got eaten and there is still 1/3 stuck on the bottom of the main tank.


I'm feeding the bowls fresh water from the main tank every 2 hours and will put the bowls in a 20 gallon tank which i filled with tankwater yesterday(with sponge filter and at 22C/72F).

Hope they will hatch well, any suggestions what to feed the fry would be welcome because i havent decided that yet, i do know im not going to decapsulate BBS though.

Small vid after spawn...

http://vid209.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/Boshond/Fry/video-2014-01-27-12-34-54.mp4

Jan 27

Just took a long hard look at the eggs and all the large eggs are getting opaque and only the small eggs are still transparent(more in 2nd spawn pan). Those still transparent do have the polar bodies so some are still good i think.

What went wrong? The large eggs were too old? Should i clear first batch and or use a small amount of malachite green or such? First batch has about 15% clear ones, i took out the white eggs allready.

I think too many were spawned in the first batch then, the second batch has much more clear/smaller eggs and less of them so they are better devided. Maybe the eggs were just too old of this imported fish and only the later ones were good.

Gary Hater said not to give up on the opaque eggs so I didn’t.

Ive changed part of the water and added 2 drops of methylene blue.

I have a big airstone and a small filter sponge in the 20 gallon tank to airate the eggs.

I picked out any white eggs with tweezers. I did treat the main tank for fungus before this, not with chemicals. So i hope i have a headstart on fungus developing.


I can allready see i need to learn so much about breeding, and probably will make alot of stupid mistakes along the way.

Hope to see more in the eggs developing tomorrow.

Jan 28

24hrs update...

Not much has changed since last night, there seems to be a bit of a belly(?) forming in the eggs and they seem to get a bit darker from the transparent amber of yesterday. I think i have about 200-250 transparant/fertilized ones so i think were down but not out!

No white ones anymore so that seems ok.

I dont understand why all fertilized eggs are clearly smaller then the opaque eggs, do they keep sucking in water untill they get fertilized? Anyway, i think i was too late for handspawning and the males had allready spend alot of their milt in the tank. Next time ill make sure to place spawning mops in the tank when i am not home.

This morning i changed 20% of the water, later today ill change the water aswell.

I decided to give hatching BBS a try, but also will order some backup if it fails. Any way to be absolutely sure all eggs have hatched? At least ive read that some lost alot of fries due to unhatched eggs or shells constipating the fry. Will have to find a good way to separate the BBS from the crud.

Jan 29

Day two, allmost 48 hrs in....

You can see clearly there is a little fishy developing in the clear eggs, it looks like a dark moonshape with belly against one side of the egg. Still are looking good.

Last night i did a 50% WC of the water instead of the usual 25%(2x per day), it smelled a bit eggy and there was some foam developing on the surface.


That probably wasnt a good idea or maybe i should have dosed MB again. Anyway, the opaque eggs all changed color to offwhite center and cloudy clear shell. More distubing is that i can see the same shape in those eggs, they are alot bigger then the clear ones. The yolksac in the center is whiteish and it looks like the yolksac is pulled off the shell as it is being absorbed still remaing white in its center. Structurally they look just as the clear ones but clouded up and 50-100% larger. I cant take any picture of it, but it is highly confusing. Probably these are bad eggs and wont hatch so i should dicard them? No sigh of fluffy fungus outside of the eggs yet, but i am worried about those eggs being contaminated.

Ill probably have a nice evening sorting these eggs, need to work first though

When i came home a saw debris floating and broken white eggs. Most transparent eggs were still intact. So i thought ill just wirl the bowls with water to get rid of the white eggs.... and checked...

They are hatching allready! They dont move alot but some are moving, nice clear beady bellies with a dark fishy(about 1/5th inch) on top. Since the other bowl with batch 1 was still in the tank i checked because they are both in the tank at an angle(with a big airstone in the center) the hatched fry was collecting in the bottom of the bowl. It is impossible they all came from the smaller transparant eggs because those didnt hatch yet, still alot might not be viable.

The larger opaque eggs must have been just old eggs and the yolksac center this morning was just reflecting light against the cloudy opaque egg shell. I do think the heavy airation and the MB made alot of difference here since i still cant find any fungus. I did raise the temperature yesterday from 22C/72C to 23C/73F because ive read somewhere that hatching them quicker/at a higher temperature would also make the risk of fungus getting a hold of them lower.


At this point i dont even expect them to survive the first 2 weeks. There is just too much that can go wrong and this being the first time i raise the fry myself and not let the pond take care of it, ill probably make many mistakes.

So off we go!!!!

Jan 30

A picture of my setup and after they hatched. Excuse the low quality of the pics.

DSC_2131.jpg

I’m flabbergasted those eggs hatched, not all but I estimate 600 fry out of 750 eggs.

Some observations during egg care:

If you check about 4 hours after fertilization you can see either polar bodies or something like a bump at the edge of the inner circle forming, this can give you a rough idea howmuch really are fertilized.


In those first hours it is extra important to heavily airate and keep adding fresh (tank) water so the eggs wont spoil. The purple bowl had allmost 2x as much eggs as the blue one, in the blue one the eggs kept much better. Later that night the eggs turned opaque and i added MB 2 drops. This seemed to stop the spoiling of the eggs. Very few did turn white but i removed those.

The bowls like i had them with the big airstone(150l/h and 50l/h on the spongefilter) in between seems to be ok, but even more airation and flow over those eggs would probably even be better to halt fungus spoiling the eggs. From what ive gathered a low temperature gets you more of the eggs hatching, but will take longer, this may increase the chance the eggs spoil.

It seemed practical to have the eggs hatch in the bowls which were in the tank. I could take the bowls with debris from the egg shells out after the eggs hatched and the fish collected in the side of the bowls after they were done.

I dont know why the larger eggs turned opaque while fertilized exactly. It could be either that they were old eggs(most likely) but it also could be that eggs suck in water after release and as soon as they are fertilized close their shell. This sounds odd, but i think this could also be possible.

The eggs that did spoil became white(from opaque) within 30 minutes. You need to remove those as soon as you see them, otherwise the fungus will spread very quickly.

Hope this will help some others who get their own spawn sometime.

Now to the BBS that need to be ready tomorrow, yes i am late with hatching them....

Feeding the fanciez...

Allright next fase,

I have BBS running for 4 hours now, i know, too late. Have a second flask ready for tomorrow so i can start a new batch when the other one is ready.

The fish are not ready to be fed. When i turn off the light about 1/5th will rise up from the bottom. But how, what and when to feed them?

I have the following foods for fry. Spirulina 100% powder, decap artemia eggs(not hatchable), artemia replacement + Astaxanthin(14days+) and i did get a few fresh eggs from our neighbours. I also have alot of testpackages of dry foods and pellets in the freezer. Some of which are very rich.

I also question my husbandry. I refresh 1/3rd of the water 2 times per day. I have a spongefilter and an airstone, but a small amount of waste will build up. Should i up the refresh rate or do a 100% change every 4th day or so?


I am seeing that those few that are free swimming allready are now attached to the filter sponge on which the floating eggshell parts are collecting. Before first feed ill do a 100% WC.

Jan 31

Airation

They are becoming more active, but not really free swimming yet. Most have relocated to the sides of the tank and there are many on the filter sponge.

Ive read someone claiming his fry got sucked into the sponge, is that possible? It is a very small filter sponge and i have tempered the flow when they started swimming.

Ive taken out the airstone so there is not much current.

I have a few bent/curled fry on the bottom, do they usually bend when dead?

BBS setup, started the next bottle, the one i started yesterday has not been warm enough to hatch i think. I dont understand why mine are clear and when i look at BBS youtube video's they all look murky, probably the eggs are different/have been cleaned?


DSC_2142-001.jpg

Now this is so cool, Ranchu headquarters! :pease:

DSC_2143-001.jpg

Ok, i thought 2 smaller batches would be better so if one goes wrong i still have the other. The ratio of eggs/water/salt/bakingsoda is from the instruction sheet. The left bottle is from yesterday and these have turned orange (so you cant see them very well against the curtain), but not hatched yet. Do you think i wont be able to harvest BBS from these? If so ill start another batch in a bigger bottle.

In the instruction manual it says per 1 liter, 32grams of rocksalt, 1 teaspoon of eggs. It didnt mention baking soda, so i just put a pinch in to get PH above 8.

In these bottles i have half a teaspoon of eggs. There must be something different about these eggs or maybe they meant a heaped teaspoon?

The bottles are now above the radiator and it is about 78F there.

I do have a backup plan but i wanted to try this, mostly because it isnt as hard on the water than feeding other foods. I will try to get other eggs tomorrow if these didnt hatch by then.

Feb 1

Free swimming!

This morning when i turned on the light i saw about 50 fry swimming free and the swimbladder had filled adding a dot behind the eyes. Moments later i saw more rising to the surface. I now have 6" of water in the tank, if the ones on the bottom won't come up ill try and lower the water and stop the spongefilter to try and get them to the surface.

The BBS from the first batch hatched, but only 30% of the eggs hatched and this percentage did not improve over night. Also the eggshells didnt rise to the surface. I think the BSE are not a good quality and i will try and find a better source today. The temp of the BSS is still 28C and 30C where the lamp is on the bottle which i measured with my IR thermometer.

This also means i won't be able to feed BBS today or tomorrow, so I have to get better BSE right now!

Done!

I now have a different brand BSE said to give a much better yield by someone i know. I hope this will work out better, the BSE definately look smaller and the water looks alot murkier because of this. Also bought a screen offered by the same brand to filter out the BBS, dont know if that works, but if it does.....

Did 2 batches of BBS, 1 in big and 1 in little bottle, maybe there is a difference in the bottle aswell. Ill freeze whatever BBS i cant use that day.

Also starting a bigger filtersponge in the parents ranchu tank, i will move the spawn to a bigger 75 gl tank in a couple of days.

Yes!!!! the BBS from yesterday is hatching as we speak!

So it wasn't the BSE, but the temp or possibly the baking soda which i didnt add to first batch.

That solves the food issue, unless i cant find a way to separate the shells from the BBS. I also bought a sieve for the BBS, its 0.15mm mesh so i hope that will clean it out, otherwise ill do as suggested earlier.

I also read a nice other trick to prevent contamination of BBS. You put the BBS in a black or completely dark(inside) container with a small hole in the lid. The BBS will come out few at the time according to the writer.

I siphon and WC about 50% every day. This morning i had 7 culls and they seem to get less. Maybe a WC is not nessesary untill feeding starts, but i want to keep them used to the taste of the fresh water.

Since this morning they started to freely swim. There are about 100 still halfway on the sponge and about 50 on the bottom. I did not lose many and still have about 500 fry. I added salt at 1 tblsp per 10 gallons, which is what i prefer. The water quality is good, no smell.

I am in doubt about the bottom cull, someone i knew a long time ago and who tought me very much about GF said convincingly "those will be the best fish". I do think he meant that i should never give up on weaker fry, it could be my dreamfish right?

It would offcourse be no problem at all to seperate the last bottom dwellers into a separate tank with low water level.

Since i have BBS i will feed that obviously, when they grow i plan on feeding the BBS some spirulina before i feed them to the fish. Now to cleaning up the BBS contamination, hope ill get that sorted.....

Feb 2

Will start sorting/storing BBS after dinner and see how they like it. Tomorrow morning ill siphon any remaining on the bottom i still see some rising from it!

The BBS batch was full of debris(better word then contamination?) the 0.15 screen did filter the debris but also the larger BBR. Next time ill keep watching that bottle! So i sieved the smallest BBR and filtered with paper kitchen towl and wirled that trough the tank. Enough so everyone will get one.... NICE!

Maybe the smaller bottle gets too wild inside and thats why the shells don't float? We will see tomorrow.

Great fun sofar. Most seem to have eaten just one, some none and some 2. Those with 2 in their bellies look like guppies after their meal! I will get the other screens to filter the BBS aswell.

Anyway, important note: Before first feed decide if you want to cull all bottom dweller or just the crooked ones. Before i fed them they were all near the surface and now they are all over the watercolum looking for a bite of whatever, even resting on the bottom aswell so it is hard to see wether it can or cannot swim.

Had no culls this morning!

This morning after WC.

http://vid209.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/Boshond/video-2014-02-02-09-18-50.mp4

I'm trying hard to keep up with hatching BBS, got 3 feeds from this mornings batch but the other one seems to have gone wrong.

They eat it like candy though i feed like a 2 peasize portion strained atm and its gone in a 5 minutes or so. I do keep trying to remove most of the eggshells, but i do lose alot of BBS that way. Nutritional value of the shells are 0 i suspect?


Anyway i have enough till tomorrow afternoon, hope the next batch is ok after all, the water with the BBS looks a bit milky and greyish.

I am increasing the number of feeds these days, yesterday 1 in the evening, today two and tomorrow should be 3. Then ill see if a 4th is needed.

I also got a 120gl tank today and a frame to fit my two tanks. I'm planning on moving the fry to a 75gl tank which has twice the surface area of the the box now. Next weekend they are 2 weeks and its time to cull..... The ones that make it go in the 75gl tank.

Still... so much to do!

Feb 3

I am glad to say i got the BBS hatching covered, some minor difference in PH(baking soda) made the BBS look drifferent but in new brine solution it was back to what i am used to. I see all orange bellies now and i'm trying to keep filling them up after they pooped. They seem to have no interest at all in the debris(shells and unhatched eggs). But it keeps the tank cleaner anyway. Ive tried a 35% WC this morning but that seems to cause stress, so ill do 2x20% tomorrow. They are now about 2x the starting size after hatching, you can see a bit of finnage and a some have a head instead of two eyes!

I have a really easy trick for WC, ill take a few pics of it tomorrow. Maybe someone who reads this later will find it usefull.


Feb 4

New tank ready!

I the time to get my new tank ready today, so i have enough space for the fry.

So ive got the tanks stacked and leveled, i was thinking to use the top tank for the Ranchu stock and the lower for the fry, they are 75 and 100gl. Should i filter the fry tank with a spongefilter or any other ideas to setup, waterlevel etc?


Feb 5

I'm allready at 3x the amount BSE i started with so 3 teaspoons BSE per day. But they eat it all every day! The Bottles are 1/2gl bottles now.

Ive made some pictures yesterday, so also the fry are bigger allready. Just to show my way to syphon this small tank savely without having to stay and watch during siphoning.

First siphon the bottom of the tank, check bottomdwellers and cull if needed. Takes 15-20 min i think. Then you can put the stick with the airtube into the spongefilter exit and walk away. The stick will prevent the tube from getting out of the filterexit. Return the siphoned amount of water(treated) and at the exact temperature slowly. Even the current from an airtube is pretty strong. Obviously this depends on the hight difference while siphoning in or out.


Allways check the bucket before you throw the old water out!

Wile siphoning the bottom have the stick in one hand and the end of the tube in the bucket in the other. This way you can stop siphoning when fish come near.


DSC_2149.jpg

DSC_2150.jpg

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I also readied the fry tank with seeded filter from the parents tank(at end of the vid).

Feb 7

Day 11 since spawn.

I am planning on a first cull this weekend. Usually this is done after two weeks so i am early. Still they are too many to keep in the small container i think, so otherwise ill just move them.

Observations tail developement: The tails seems to start of at the end of the spine with the two bottom caudal lobes. As growth progresses the two top lobes are formed but the spine still connects the two caudal fins. Now the caudal fins start to grow faster then the spine and the two caudal fins seperate if all is well. Sometimes one can see the spine sticking out a bit, but is starting to bend upwards. In a later fase this would be a problem but i dont know if culling those in this fase would be advisable. The fry are about 2/5th inch now. So they more then doubled in length.

If i would remove all crooked spines and single tails and would not cull for tails i would only have about 10%-15% which are culls. Not really worth the fish' stress of culling at the moment maybe. The tails are about to split from the spine, so it seems too early to cull for tails. I am really happy the fry seems to have so little obvious culls, part seems to have to do with the quality of the black Thai bloodline which seemed very consistent when i selected them out of a maybe a hundred brothers and sisters. Still expecting mayor culls when tails are up for culling though....

Pics ‘n vid

http://vid209.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/Boshond/Fry/video-2014-02-07-10-01-46.mp4

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Feb 9

Notes on culling Ranchu.

I have been seaching on the internet about culling Ranchu and have only found some picture of japanese TVR culling.

I do not persume to know much about culling, this is just a bunch of notes which i had when i first culled this spawn yesterday evening and early this morning. I have read that culling Ranchu can be very different in each spawn and also that before culling one should study the Ranchu extensively and picture a certain build/finnage you want to keep, this seems very important to me and culling to the best of that standard should be the way to go IMHO.

When i started reading on the net, there was very little info i could find, especially on SVR culling. Since the tails were clearly visible and i had to move the Ranchu to a bigger tank anyway, i thought i should go ahead with it.

Based on observations and the pictures from that japanese website i selected certain aspects, not including those typical for TVR or not clearly visible yet. Also the W shape in the caudal fins should be about 170 degrees for TVR, since i have SVR i reduced that to 90 degrees. The degree you choose as a reference is also highly dependant on the fry i think.

Prior to culling i checked PH and temperature of the tanks and matched those.

I used a glass bowl and a clamp-on lamp to shine underneath the bowl and some magnifying glasses. The culls i spooned out with a white plastic spoon, the fish look different against white and can be judged again if a defect is unclear.

Culls included:

Spine: So also check all if they swim well, maybe most important because you cant see small defects yet, but you can see if they are able to swim well. Deformed spines.
Tail: About 90 degrees(depending on the fry) and clear/firm W shape when viewed from above. Twisted or curled inwards finrays.
Abnormalities: Runts, spike backfin, gills(shape of the head), bad swimbladder(not floating or swiming leveled). I left the knicks at the peduncle when the tail had a certain shape and they swam well.

I tried to count the fry but gave up quickly. With the top view culling i had about 250 'good' fry and about 200 devided into 70 definate culls and 130 'maybe' culls. I left it at that and went to sleep, i had a hard time focussing allready after 2 hours culling. Probably ill need spectacles soon.

I woke up after a after a few hours of sleep and proceded. Checked the fry in the tank first. Well, i wasnt really happy about that. The TV culling left alot of humps and knicks in the spine. I think about 30/250 are obviously culls. Also alot of bad tailangles, but that will change/improve in the next weeks if the information i found is correct about that.

No more culling to standards which are not for this spawn. Good lesson learned.

Since i still had the 150 'maybe' culls with a W shape tail but generally in the 45 degree region i decided to check those again, but more carefully and from the side aswell. Note that there were also bad swimmers in there so i needed to be absolutely sure.

I have to say that many looked great from the side, and saved those that still had decent tail angle and nice back/spine. These 130 SV culls took me twice as long as the 450 when just culling TV. So i should be prepared to take a whole day for next cull. Also i lost 2 fry in the culling process, dont know if that is alot, but a shame none the less.

Anyway, i estimate i have about 350 left now and culled just over 100. I would much rather have less fry because the tank i have for the fry isnt large enough to hold 350 1 month old fry i think. Maybe i will cull again next weekend.

Next time ill do a much better job though.

http://vid209.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/Boshond/Fry/video-2014-02-09-10-43-09.mp4

Feb 12

The fry is now 10 days after first feed and 12 days after hatching. This weekend i'm going to cull the tails, last time i just didnt know what to keep. Also the fry were just too small to judge i guess.

Since i mixed thai and chinese genes i really cant cull for either characteristics, i do see a general mix of shorter and more rounded backs and a bit slimmer and more straight backs. Seemingly small differences but i guess they will develop differently aswell. So again, no culling standard.....

So i'm going to cull everything with bad tail angles of which dont have a smooth back. All deformed ones left also offcourse.


I didnt have any losses last few days, they are eating and growing fine!

Tried to make a few pictures but this seems especially hard because i have to use a small flash and they now react to that instantly.

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Feb 15

Notes on culling #2

Back again from 7 hours of culling and full cleanout of the tank. My head hurts and my heart aswell, but small defect will become much larger defects....

Seeing the parents dealing with the culls makes it have an odd purpose, and it shows us we are very far from nature in our goldfish hobby.

Anyway, i think 14 days after first feed seemed perfect, you can still study the inners of the fry and check the spine for defects. Also the tails are much more developed and it seems obvious to cull for those two now.

Ive studied the fry extensively and i think about 1% could grow out to be significantly better fish then their parents. In general i pictured the fry that had evenly rounded spines and good tail to keep this cull. This was about 25%. While culling i took another 25% of the fry with good tail but with very slight hump above the swimming bladder. I saw those alot and it seems this will change when they grow, these are the somewhat smaller fry. I mainly selected the tail on a 70-90 degree angle of the tailfins when looking from behind and also on the tails being erect.

Still i felt i had to deviate at times, the best rounded spines often had a less erect tail. I hope some will change aswell.

I also counted the good, the bad and the ugly. Total good 202, bad 178 and the ugly Oranchu's were 8. I plan to seperate the Oranchu and raise them aswell, some of those are huge and will become headhunters if i dont seperate them from the ranchu fry i think. Total fry were 400 so i culled about half.

This first experience with ranchu culling takes alot of time for sure, but i noticed i got much quicker at the end, not having to check every detail, but seeing the whole of the fry and being able to decide instantly. Well a few exeptions granted offcourse

I also seeded the spongefilter again during the process, probably i will add a second one soon since i feel the fry is ready for it.

Water quality was a bit waning, i hope the cull will solve that for now. I WC in the morning and in the evening after last feed, about 50%. I also have a IR thermometer, you really need one to get the temp not to fluctuate too much during WC.

The water is still sweet though!

Feb 17

After the culling i added a small(25gl) filter which fits my syphon hose. I have a filtersponge at the end of that hose. So its easier and quicker to WC now, the sponge at the end does reduce flow trough the filter but it causes only very little current this way.

The tails should be as erect(vertical) as possible, tail tuck deep and smooth arch and preferably high back. Svr usually have a TV tailangle just above 90 degrees or even under.

I will increase waterlevel slowly in the new tank. From the 6” in the tub I will add an inch or so at every WC.

Ill see how it works, if i cant maintain the waterquality i just let the level rise a bit. I dont have time to cull untill next weekend.

The tank is 1.25x0.47m so 1/4th of your tank. I WC about half, 2 times per day, i do think my filtration sponge is not funtioning as well as it should yet.

The lack of a standard(and because of that no culling criteria) complicates the hell out of raising these because i want to get the best out of them. I must say i got lucky i guess, no unexpected losses in the beginning and these 200 have good potential to become better quality ranchu pets. Which as such is what you can expect from these parents. I do want to give this fry my best shot and want to get the best out of them qualitywise. I personally see this as a test to what i can expect to gain in quality from these known and handspawned parents. So stocking really low density and keeping everything pristine is a reference to me in husbandry routine, experience will teach me what is needed and what is not.

Probably its more of a testcase to me and next year ill have a good bloodline breeding stock and all the tubs i need at the ready.


Sofar i do enjoy having the fry very much, the work it creates is not a big issue and i dont expect to breed commercially. Even the BBS are not as much hassle as i expected, once you have it going like it should its merely a matter of emptying and refilling the bottles(i have 2x2l bottles now).

http://vid209.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/Boshond/Fry/video-2014-02-17-11-21-53.mp4

Feb 18

I was doing some researching on grooming the fry to find more info on how water level would influence the development of my normal ranchu fry. Seeing waterlevel as a grooming tool may be interesting. I must find out how to get the tails to become more erect. I know this has to do with vertical swimming and water depth, will need to find more info before testing this on the fry.

Additional feeding.

I was trying some ingredients to compose an additional food for the fry next to the BBS, or select a commercial food based on the ingredients. Ive tried several fry foods and ground to dust. All mixes had a high spirulina content.

Feb 20

Bad day..

Yesterday i saw some flashing. I had the flukes treatment planned after week 2 cull, but i forgot about it.

This morning i had 4 fry swiming around with their mouths locked wide open....... fukes

So now doing salt and garlic treatment to handle the flukes. WC’s are on 2x50% daily now.

Ive had the waterlevel down to 7", my sponge filter is too high to lower it any further. I think this should be low enough for these kind of ranchu.

The ranchu are growing ultrafast since i feed more, allmost a mm per day. Now at 1.2-1.5 cm so half an inch. I have about 10-15 runts still and about 25 with tail defect(not completely open).

I say ranchu and not fry because the look like ranchu now and have scales and everything, they are just mini ranchu without wen. Some have very big bellies, those seem to swim faster and are at an advantage when eating BBS.

The spirulina also seems to get absorbed allmost completely, i havent seen any green poo which i expected.


Feb 21

I hope i'm not jinxing it, but i had no more fluke casualties since yesterday morning!

So i hope this treatment will work and wont set the fry back. They are eating more and more, it seems they never have enough.

I am considering a cull tomorrow or sunday. I can see i have 15-20% to cull if i cull for runts and unopened tails of which a few top caudal finrays are still stuck together.


However there are also a big group of somewhat smaller ranchu with shallow but wide tail still not opened up but seemed like the edo nishiki, well sort off. Maybe ill start a separate batch of those and see if I can get them to grow better.

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Feb 22

The fry are doing well and treatment seems to go well, i had no additional fluke casualties. Tomorrow i'm going to cull and check all the gills for damage and displacement.

Every day i enjoy these fry more as they become more and more beautyfull, they are very active and keep on looking for more food fanatically!

Not looking forward to tomorrow.......

I am also going to compose a crumble and gelfood and compare with other foods. Deviding the fry between tanks.

The use of the established system i have to seed the fry tank was a poor one with the flukes and all, it happened and i learned from it.

The fry is now 3 weeks old, tomorrow ill cull again. I have a growout pond ready when I can take the fry outside.

The oranda x ranchu are now in a seperate tank, they are for a friend who wants to put them in a pond of his, then try and breed a shukin type gf out of it. He wants those for a long time but they seem hard to get here.

I culled several of those though, but these do look like a decent pet grade fish to me.

Feb 23

Feeding fry

I have also considered eggs, but did not go that way because i think it is not considered a fry food but rather a supplement next to GW and daphnia grown in GW and algea in tank for example. Usually whole eggs are steamed at a specific temperature so it will just set, it was told to me this was about 68 degrees which they measure carefully while steaming.

After some experimenting with 6 commercial fryfoods or ground pellet foods i concluded they like the one with the highest proteine content the most. After that i combined their preferred fry food(59% proteine) with spirulina(69% proteine) and they preferred the 'dough' with the most spirulina content.

After some research on the analyses of these products i mix up these ingredients to supplement the BBS. Out of this dough i make wafer size cookies which do not cloud the water so much and WC after feeding those.

I will keep feeding BBS untill they are big enough to eat BW and such as it is clear the natural feeding habit of GF has to be maintained or at least simulated for a close to optimal result.

I have a feeling this also applies to older ranchu, some FG varieties seem to do very well on a single staple diet, but not ranchu it seems. I'm not certain why there seems to be a difference in that. Probably the lack of green algea in their diet is the reason.


Notes on culling #3

Culling is done! I have about 50 fry with good back and tail and another batch of 50 with good back but not completele opened or erect tail. The rest are culled, it is obvious flaws i saw before but were so small i though could perhaps change only became bigger flaws. It does become much easier to see these as you get a bit of practice.

It took for ages though, i took the time to check all the gills and eyes and fins this time. Strangely enough i didnt find any deformed gillplates, just 2 fry wich seemed to be unable to correctly close their gills.

Could it be fry sometimes get 'locked open mouths' after they have to chew/suck on dry food the first time after having had only BBS?

I also culled a few fry with remnants from finnage on the backs, just tiny dots sometimes.

What i didnt see before was that some had a wrinkled back, i cant describe it better, but the spine is perfect but the muscle tissue is not smooth. Its not the scales just the back muscle fibres look twisted? Anyone seen this before?

I just culled all runts and any other flaw i could find, also there were quite a few with top caudal finrays running past the pedunkle. I left those last cull because i wanted to see what would happen to those, but they will just become bigger flaws.

Feb 26

Finally i think i see where the fry are going in their development and decided on a specific buildtype in these, generally the shorter/deeper build seem to develop more beautyfull allthough growing a bit slower. Their tails still are developing so i was trying to delay culling for that aspect. Out of these in the video ill keep about 20-30 in this weekends cull. Those i will grow out to two months.

I am feeding BBS but cant keep up with the demand, very hungry fry! They are fed some crushed hikari purple aswell now.

Prazi fluke treatment also started today, ive had no more casualties from the flukes but they are still there.

So there we are at the 1 month mark with this ranchu fry, i must say i enjoy having them alot and am absolutely stoked about seeing them grow out to proper size fish. Next on the to-do list is a better breeding setup with enough room for a decent spawn and easy WC.

March 4

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April 24

Ranchu

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Oranda x Ranchu

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That was their fry stage, they moved to the pond on 25th of June, more great fry video's in my Tube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCS8IG8GK8clJiF2G-vKvapw

Thanks for the interest, hope it will be helpfull to some trying to breed aswell. :thumb:

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"Feb 18

I was doing some researching on grooming the fry to find more info on how water level would influence the development of my normal ranchu fry. Seeing waterlevel as a grooming tool may be interesting. I must find out how to get the tails to become more erect. I know this has to do with vertical swimming and water depth, will need to find more info before testing this on the fry."

This topic has been of great interest to me - were you able to learn anything else on it? Do you know if the same principles can be applied to other varieties than ranchu? I am trying to do this with my telescope fry right now. I wanted to keep to the 1cm:1inch rule for fish length:water depth, but I had to compromise to have enough depth to add my sponge filter. So they are now in 6" of water at approx 3-3.5cm in length (before tail).

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:interesting: That is a great detailed log of your fry :goodpost

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"Feb 18

I was doing some researching on grooming the fry to find more info on how water level would influence the development of my normal ranchu fry. Seeing waterlevel as a grooming tool may be interesting. I must find out how to get the tails to become more erect. I know this has to do with vertical swimming and water depth, will need to find more info before testing this on the fry."

This topic has been of great interest to me - were you able to learn anything else on it? Do you know if the same principles can be applied to other varieties than ranchu? I am trying to do this with my telescope fry right now. I wanted to keep to the 1cm:1inch rule for fish length:water depth, but I had to compromise to have enough depth to add my sponge filter. So they are now in 6" of water at approx 3-3.5cm in length (before tail).

At first i had them in the tub with 6" of water, this is best to start off, they have no problem getting free swimming and food does not scatter too much.

Later on when grooming SVR fry there is a difficult stage where the tail has to become erect after back has arched and the tail has tucked. You can find good pictures of the tailangle as it should be for a SVR standard on the web. Here for example:

http://thegoldfishhouse.wordpress.com/2009/04/27/general-guide-to-select-a-side-view-ranchu-svr/

To groom the tail angle you need deeper water then 6", so after i put them in a larger tank i started to increase the waterlevel to search for a point where they would change their tail because they swam more vertically. Again later in the next tank i did increase the waterlevel again to promote vertical swimming.

You do not want this to go too fast or too slow, this is also depending on how thick the tail core is. You typically would want a setup in which you can raise and lower water hight and influence current. Note please that ranchu and maybe other dorsalless varieties need grooming in this fase, i have experienced no problems with this when fish did have a dorsal fin, probably nature takes control over this much better.

Unless your teles are butterfly's or they are still very small, i do not see a problem grooming them in deeper water, eventually they need to function best in a tank with 40 or 50 cm of water anyway.

Again, SVR grooming highly depends on what you are breeding from. But you can see the process of the tails becoming erect in the above pictures.

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"Feb 18

I was doing some researching on grooming the fry to find more info on how water level would influence the development of my normal ranchu fry. Seeing waterlevel as a grooming tool may be interesting. I must find out how to get the tails to become more erect. I know this has to do with vertical swimming and water depth, will need to find more info before testing this on the fry."

This topic has been of great interest to me - were you able to learn anything else on it? Do you know if the same principles can be applied to other varieties than ranchu? I am trying to do this with my telescope fry right now. I wanted to keep to the 1cm:1inch rule for fish length:water depth, but I had to compromise to have enough depth to add my sponge filter. So they are now in 6" of water at approx 3-3.5cm in length (before tail).

At first i had them in the tub with 6" of water, this is best to start off, they have no problem getting free swimming and food does not scatter too much.

Later on when grooming SVR fry there is a difficult stage where the tail has to become erect after back has arched and the tail has tucked. You can find good pictures of the tailangle as it should be for a SVR standard on the web. Here for example:

http://thegoldfishhouse.wordpress.com/2009/04/27/general-guide-to-select-a-side-view-ranchu-svr/

To groom the tail angle you need deeper water then 6", so after i put them in a larger tank i started to increase the waterlevel to search for a point where they would change their tail because they swam more vertically. Again later in the next tank i did increase the waterlevel again to promote vertical swimming.

You do not want this to go too fast or too slow, this is also depending on how thick the tail core is. You typically would want a setup in which you can raise and lower water hight and influence current. Note please that ranchu and maybe other dorsalless varieties need grooming in this fase, i have experienced no problems with this when fish did have a dorsal fin, probably nature takes control over this much better.

Unless your teles are butterfly's or they are still very small, i do not see a problem grooming them in deeper water, eventually they need to function best in a tank with 40 or 50 cm of water anyway.

Again, SVR grooming highly depends on what you are breeding from. But you can see the process of the tails becoming erect in the above pictures.

I see, thanks for responding and great pictures! I'm not sure if the father of my fry is a broadtail or butterfly, and some of the fry have a nice, spread tail, while others are more vertical. I wonder if there is any site with such detailed info as you have found for your ranchu, only for telescopes!

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This looks like such an interesting read! I've had to skip through most of it because I have a deadline tomorrow, which is painful as I want to read it all now!!

From what I've seen so far your ranchu have turned out beautifully, you've done a great job :D

I love their colour - did you know this is the colour you were going to get from those parents? Or was the fry's colour a surprise?

What a great reference for anyone considering breeding and raising fry.

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I see, thanks for responding and great pictures! I'm not sure if the father of my fry is a broadtail or butterfly, and some of the fry have a nice, spread tail, while others are more vertical. I wonder if there is any site with such detailed info as you have found for your ranchu, only for telescopes!

Do you have a fry thread up?

Even if both parents are butterfly's you cant expect many butterfly tailed ones when breeding unrelated fish. You will just get a completely 'mixed bag' genetically. There are written standards on telescopes and blackmoors though, so that will be very informative to read.

If you are partial to the butterfly tail trait i would grow those out seperately from the 'normal' tailed ones. The normal (broad)tailed ones will outcompete the slower swimming butterfly's and this will be a disadvantage to them. It is also very important to get a clear picture in your head what you want to accomplish. You can grow out 500 telescopes but the quality will be less then when you decide to just breed the 20 selected best butterfly's. There allways will be some tough dicisionmaking in the process, but this is simply how it is when breeding goldfish.

I think it will be logical to grow out butterfly's in less deep water untill they have finished fry stage. I cannot advise you on the best depth for this, but as you can see in the pictures the ranchu get an 'adult' appearance somewhere between 2-3 months. After that it is not likely they will change as much, at least my ranchu didnt. Also you need to be aware it might be unwise to keep growing out many fish in shallow water since waste can be an issue more quickly.

Probably you know about this, but the AGA website is a great source to start reading about breeding and a standard to breeding goldfish.

http://www.americangoldfish1.org/goldfish%20standards.htm

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This looks like such an interesting read! I've had to skip through most of it because I have a deadline tomorrow, which is painful as I want to read it all now!!

From what I've seen so far your ranchu have turned out beautifully, you've done a great job :D

I love their colour - did you know this is the colour you were going to get from those parents? Or was the fry's colour a surprise?

What a great reference for anyone considering breeding and raising fry.

Thank you very much, i hope you will enjoy reading it when you have the time!

I didnt expect them to change color this late. The parents are black ranchu females and RW and orange males. When you look at the fry pictures from march and april you would think they are changing colour, but they were not and still they are not changing exept for the few orandaXranchu which did change much earlier!

Later i learned this is an unstable black colour and you can see them turning black when exposed to sunlight, so these will change color to RW or orange and black. I cant say when though, ive read this depends on the black pigmentation(melanophores) getting less and less over time. So basically unstable black goldfish will become less black naturally when aging.

There is one advantage to the black genes though, they have beautyfull scalation which is much finer and more detailed, to me this is a trait i would want to keep.

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Edited by Hinfin

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Yes, my thread is here: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/118629-finley-franklins-first-fry/

I admit, I may not raise fry again - this batch was an accident. :) But I do want to do the very best I can by them, and help them reach their full potential. The AGA standards are very helpful, now how to achieve it? :)

Thanks again for your responses - this diary is just wonderful! :D

Edited by SweetMamaKaty

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Thanks all for the thumbs up, much appreciated!

Yes, my thread is here: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/118629-finley-franklins-first-fry/

I admit, I may not raise fry again - this batch was an accident. :) But I do want to do the very best I can by them, and help them reach their full potential. The AGA standards are very helpful, now how to achieve it? :)

Thanks again for your responses - this diary is just wonderful! :D

I will try and help you out with the fry. I didnt plan on raising this spawn aswell i just intended to free the females of their eggs. Looking back on all the stress and doubts i had when i was raising the fry i also wouldnt but something tells me once i see the eggs again it will be a hard choise not to raise them. Needless to say ive learned alot from raising these!

The standard is very important if you want to continue breeding these fish, otherwise its only a reference to what breeders before you have been looking for in the telescope-eye breed. Some of which has to do with their potential when grown out, a certain balance in appearance. The experience of a fellow telescope breeder would be invaluable when selecting fish to keep/grow out and with the potential to breed.

Also to help a fish grow out to its full potential will be a very rewarding task, you will see so much difference between commercially grown out fish and these when you decide and groom a selected couple of them to adults! :)

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Adding a few pics, they are now allmost 10 months, and growing fast!

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They are changing color, i have read some call this blackgold which seems a pale yellow and dark brown and is often seen when crossing orange and black fish.

Enjoy!

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My goodness, they're adorable. :)

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Wishing you well... from the NL! :rofl

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Is that in the new fish room? Some of them are developing true lion heads and their backs have such nice curves!

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Is that in the new fish room? Some of them are developing true lion heads and their backs have such nice curves!

Thanks! These are the stacked new(to me) tanks in the fishroom. These are all the fish fry i have left, i recently sold the ones in the blue tub exept the black one and one orange/brown one that wasnt very orange yet.

This thread was about my big ranchu spawn from mixed Thai and Chinese ranchu, but in the video there are also some from much smaller spawns from summer(Thai genes). From the large spawn the quality is better but i culled much more in % from those, these also have a typically larger head.

Interesting might be the different backcurve shapes, rounded ones, squared ones, ones with a hump and i also have 2 with a 'saddle' back. I will be keeping some specimen of either style because these all have different shapes of swimbladders. The saddleback will have 2(connected) and the hunchback has a more oranda style swimbladder. I find this extremely interesting especially because i want to be able and decide what swimbladdershape is best and select those from a spawn. Offcourse we all want a good proportionate wen shape, but especially in ranchu i would like a good and problem free swimbladder aswell!

Can you imagine the hours spent examining fry's swimbladders? :lol1:stars

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Your ranchus are gorgeous! They are real beauty!

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