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Sennenko

Help! Bloody veins in fin!

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Hi all, I wish I could say that I cruise around here more when Nemo and I are NOT having a bad day... but long time no see. Last I was on here was a while ago and Dnalex was so very super helpful.

I have a problem!

The below results were after my last water change 25%, a few hours ago. I had brought the nitrate levels down to a manageable level. Please read below.. they had been dangerously high in the previous days. I am currently uploading a video of this bloody splotch on his fin and will post it asap.

  • Test Results for the Following:
    • * Ammonia Level(Tank) 0ppm
    • * Nitrite Level(Tank) 0ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tank) 20ppm
    • * Ammonia Level(Tap) .25ppm
    • * Nitrite Level(Tap) 0ppm
    • * Nitrate level(Tap) 0ppm
    • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.6 pH, KH 35.8 ppm (and rising, as I replaced my crushed coral. my tap is suuuuper soft.) GH 143.2 ppm
    • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 6.0 pH
    • Other Required Info:
      • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API MASTER KIT (drops)
      • * Water temperature? 76°F
      • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 20 gal, about 6 months, cycle has been established.
      • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aqueon 20 and AquaClear 50
      • * How often do you change the water and how much? 25-30% weekly
  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? today, 25%
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 1, about 5"
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Amquel+, and I would buffer my tap with small amounts of baking soda. I just replaced my crushed coral today.
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Hikari pellets, occasional TatraFin flakes
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? no
  • * Any medications added to the tank? no
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?
  • See below for answers to the above questions.

Today marks the 4th day of bottom sitting. 4 days ago, I noticed a change in behavior... Nemo was lethargic and bottom-sitting, whereas the day before he was just fine. It had been about a week since my last 25% water change, so I did one (25%) out of routine, and left it at that. I didn't test the water because somenody was borrowing it. I always use Amquel+ with my water changes.

The next day, more bottom sitting. So I got my test kit back and decided to test the water. 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrites..... then alarming, shockingly, 120+ppm nitrates!!! EEP! I then administered two back-to-back 25% water changes (so 50% total) that evening. The nitrates went down to about 80~70ppm.

So the next day I did another 25% water change, and the nitrates went down again to about 50ppm. I had also ran out of Amquel+ so I made a trip down to the LFS and bought me some more - along with a sword plant, thinking that would help in bringing the nitrates down. I did another 25% water change yesterday evening, and added the plant.

Now something I might have slipped up on was I probably didn't clean the plant well enough. We were out of bleach, so I just rubbed it down in pure water for a bit and put it in. :/ He's been eating.... I backed off a little bit on it and gave him a pea here and there during this whole time.

This morning, I wake up... Nemo's still bottom sitting. HOWEVER! I was APPALLED to see on the underside of his belly, on his first bottom fin (pelvic fin?) he had a bright red bloody splotch that looks like it's slowly creeping down through his veins in the fin. It starts right where the fin attaches to his body. Eeeeek!

Now my questions. Is it possible that:

1.) There could have been parasites on my sword plant and he got attacked/infected THAT QUICKLY?

2.) Nemo occasionally will do laps around the bottom of the tank and never really leave the gravel-level. In fact sometimes he is brushing up against it, skirting it. Is this was is known as "scratching?" I should note, however, that he was doing this BEFORE the new plant, and there shouldn't have been anything else new introduced to the tank before this.

2.) Can bottom-sitting for that long cause something similar to 'bed sores'? If he scratched/bumped up against the gravel too often?

He gets bursts of energy, where he'll go swimming through the middle part of the tank, then just 'turn off' and sink rapidly toward the bottom, looking as if he's almost 'hitting' or bumping up against the gravel. Is this what's known as 'flashing?' Meep!

OKAY! SO.

Should I do salt in the tank, or salt dips? What concentration?

Should I try to disinfect the plant better or is it too late?

Do I need to buy some Prazipro? I've never administered it before.

My LFS closes in about 3 hours, sorry this is so late but I'd appreciate some advice asap!!

Edited by Sennenko

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can you post pictures of the concern & a short video of the fish's behaviour? that will help :)

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I finally scooped him up in a container and was able to gently hold him to get a good shot.... he's a real squirmer so this is all I could get.

I have a video uploading it's only at 30% right now and I will post that when it finishes.... sorry it's taking so long the video upload is really slowing down my computer...!

The red patch could have very well been there last night and I might not have noticed it because he was hanging around on the bottom.

Poor baby :(

IMG_1529.jpg

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do you have the means in order to set up a QT? a spare 10 gallons storage tub or tank, airstone/pump? and if needed, a heater?

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Helen, I do have his old 10 gal with a dinky airstone and an old tetra whisper 10i filter. Unfortunately no heater, my spare is broken. My water out of the tap is rather cold, like 60°F, whereas his tank water has been as steady 76°F.

I've never set up a quarantine tank before so I apologize in advance, you'll have to walk me though anything step-by-step. :(

My filters are currently set up with filterfloss and biomax rings, established.

I called my LFS and all the have on hand is API "General Cure" which is 250 mg metro and 75 mg prazi in a powdered, packet form. They said they have some metro separate, but no prazi by itself to buy.

What can I anticipate?

Edited by Sennenko

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Isn't there a way to make the tap warmer?

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Isn't there a way to make the tap warmer?

Silly me, I guess I could use the kitchen sink. There was just a plain utility sink I had been using and I would let it sit for a bit and add a cup of warm water til the temp evened out. It's a farther walk but I will do it. :P

Standing by..... advice needed on setting up QT tank if needed and what treatment to administer. He's just currently sitting on the bottom of the tank. Water parameters should be just fine, but I'm wondering what sort of damage was done with those 120PPM nitrate readings... or if I messed it up with the new plant....

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Isn't there a way to make the tap warmer?

Silly me, I guess I could use the kitchen sink. There was just a plain utility sink I had been using and I would let it sit for a bit and add a cup of warm water til the temp evened out. It's a farther walk but I will do it. :P

Standing by..... advice needed on setting up QT tank if needed and what treatment to administer. He's just currently sitting on the bottom of the tank. Water parameters should be just fine, but I'm wondering what sort of damage was done with those 120PPM nitrate readings... or if I messed it up with the new plant....

is that well water you have been using from the utility sink? If so, check the tap levels from the kitchen sink as they could and very well may be different.

You said you had a 10 gallon tank, correct? Is it clean, was it used for anything else but fish? If only used for fish, give it a rinse and wipe down with warm/hit water. Then, set it up. you would it fill it with water that is temp and pH matched as well as de chlorinated. With the filter, take some media from your running filter and put that in the other filter you were going to use. (Make sure the filter you were going to use is at least 100 GPH) and with the media from your current filter into the new filter, it should be cycled from your media that you seeded it with :). Next, just make sure you get the temp and pH matched and he is all set to go in. Im not sure what Helen or the other moderators would like you to do treatment wise, so wait for them :). But definitely check the levels from the kitchen sink in case they are different from the utility sink.

Edited by Mikey

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To me, it looks like flukes, but we will wait for other opinions :)

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I don't know that you would see effects of adding the plant that quickly. I think the high nitrates are a more likely cause. Do you have any idea how long they might have been this high?

I would not get the General Cure. Would you be able to order PraziPro online. It's available at our sponsor Tastyworms for a very good price. I would recommend the 4 oz size if you can get that. He ships quickly. In the meantime, I would continue to do WCs and get the nitrates under 20.

Is he eating?

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I don't know that you would see effects of adding the plant that quickly. I think the high nitrates are a more likely cause. Do you have any idea how long they might have been this high?

I would not get the General Cure. Would you be able to order PraziPro online. It's available at our sponsor Tastyworms for a very good price. I would recommend the 4 oz size if you can get that. He ships quickly. In the meantime, I would continue to do WCs and get the nitrates under 20.

Is he eating?

he is eating normally, yes. that's when he perks up and becomes active. I was alarmed that flukes could appear/harm that quickly... and I feel terrible for not being able to properly disinfect my new plant..? His behavior was different/lethargic and bottom sitting before that plant was added as I noted. Also, I think I mentioned it was only about a week from my last water change and nitrate test that was around 40ppm last week, so after that WC (25%)... sometime in the span of a week it skyrocketed but I had been without my test kit so I don't know for sure. yikes. He probably was swimming around in very bad conditions of nitrate for a few days then.

I will go ahead an order some PraziPro to have on hand anyway, I hear its a staple.

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If you've never treated with PraziPro before it might be a good idea. Many of his symptoms are indicative of flukes so, like you said, it will be good to have on hand anyway. That will give us a few days to see how he does once the nitrates are under control also.

You may want to get some Repashy super green gel mix from Tastyworms also. When we treat for flukes, sometimes if there is a heavy infestation or a weakened immune system, the fish will develop a secondary bacterial infection. You could make medicated gel food with the Repashy and the powdered metro that is available at your lfs. The other option is ordering MetroMeds from Goldfish Connection which is a fabulous medicated food. At this point, of course, we don't know if medicated food will be needed. I'm just "thinking out loud" . . .

You wouldn't happen to have MetroMeds? :idont

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I am not an expert at all but I have had an on going nitrate problem when I had seven huge commons in a 29 gallon (before I new any better) with only monthly water changes and lost four over the course of a year. The fish I lost all had the same symptoms as your fish. I then found Kokos', got a test kit and I think they had been living in 120ppm nitrates for some time. Yikes! Now, with three still with me, I religiously do 50% water changes twice a week (and got them a huge tank and tons of filters.) My point is, clean water (with low nitrates) really made them thrive! You are in good hands here and I hope your fish feels better!

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If you've never treated with PraziPro before it might be a good idea. Many of his symptoms are indicative of flukes so, like you said, it will be good to have on hand anyway. That will give us a few days to see how he does once the nitrates are under control also.

You may want to get some Repashy super green gel mix from Tastyworms also. When we treat for flukes, sometimes if there is a heavy infestation or a weakened immune system, the fish will develop a secondary bacterial infection. You could make medicated gel food with the Repashy and the powdered metro that is available at your lfs. The other option is ordering MetroMeds from Goldfish Connection which is a fabulous medicated food. At this point, of course, we don't know if medicated food will be needed. I'm just "thinking out loud" . . .

You wouldn't happen to have MetroMeds? :idont

Thanks FantailFan... no, I don't have any MetroMeds, boo. I've never tried Repashy or making custom food other than giving him peas. :P I'd need pointers on that too. Thanks for all your advice. I've had him for 14 months now, and he was kept from a previous owner for about a year before that. The only problems he's had before was due to some ammonia poisoning when I didn't have a kit yet, and he developed film over his eyes. :( But some salt dips and advice from alex solved that problem.

I'll go ahead and keep doing WCs in the meantime for the PraziPro to come in... I live in Hawaii so unfortunately stuff takes longer to get here. I think mid next-week is when I can expect it by.

Any recommendations for use of salt? Since he is the only fish in his tank, and perhaps the perpetrator of this new symptom was a plant that wasn't properly disinfected... could I just treat in the tank so it takes care of 'what's living in there' in terms of flukes....without use of a QT tank? PraziPro is apparently supposed to be ok for the established BBs in the cycle...?

P.S. I LOVE your tank setup! I've been thinking about ditching my gravel for some time now but was unsure about how to do it properly/gradually.

Edited by Sennenko

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I had the exact self same problem with my Oranda. It was caused by high nitrates. Back to back water changes of 90% and a big air stone ball got him back to normal within 48 hours. Now, as soon as I see any redness in his tail, I don't bother testing, I just do a massive water change. Good luck!

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I had the exact self same problem with my Oranda. It was caused by high nitrates. Back to back water changes of 90% and a big air stone ball got him back to normal within 48 hours. Now, as soon as I see any redness in his tail, I don't bother testing, I just do a massive water change. Good luck!

As water changes are very good, with the pH difference, no more then 25-30% at a time, unless aged and pH and temp matched before being put in.

Have you checked the pH in your sink water yet?

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I had the exact self same problem with my Oranda. It was caused by high nitrates. Back to back water changes of 90% and a big air stone ball got him back to normal within 48 hours. Now, as soon as I see any redness in his tail, I don't bother testing, I just do a massive water change. Good luck!

As water changes are very good, with the pH difference, no more then 25-30% at a time, unless aged and pH and temp matched before being put in.

Have you checked the pH in your sink water yet?

I should clarify... all of our water is actually from water-catchment reservoirs.. this is county water but that's how it's set up. No ground or well water. All water out of every faucet tests the same, about 6.0 PH. I currently have 1/2 cup of crushed coral in my tank to have it be 7.6pH, and when I add water in with my WCs I add a little bit of baking soda to buffer my soft water to match.

He's moving around a bit more but man! I am so pissed at myself for being too hasty with the plant. :( Nitrate have fallen to about 15ppm, maybe 10, it's hard to tell. Anyone else's API test chart look exactly identical between the 10ppm and the 20ppm color changes? they look like the same orange to me, lol. >_<

.

Edited by Sennenko

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As long as its buffered, you can do big water changes :)

It's recommended 50% weekly.

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As long as its buffered, you can do big water changes :)

It's recommended 50% weekly.

That's not it, actually. When you have such a huge pH difference like this, you may not do a big WC with water straight from the tap. :no:

Sennenko, it is possible to do bigger volume water changes, but you have to add baking soda to the water, BEFORE you add it to the tank. You would have to add about 1/2 to 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons, let it sit and dissolve for about 30 minutes or so, check to see that the pH indeed has risen, and then use it for your WC. :)

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As long as its buffered, you can do big water changes :)

It's recommended 50% weekly.

That's not it, actually. When you have such a huge pH difference like this, you may not do a big WC with water straight from the tap. :no:

Sennenko, it is possible to do bigger volume water changes, but you have to add baking soda to the water, BEFORE you add it to the tank. You would have to add about 1/2 to 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons, let it sit and dissolve for about 30 minutes or so, check to see that the pH indeed has risen, and then use it for your WC. :)

Huurah, alex has arrived on the scene!

Oops, I usually add the baking soda into my bucket of water that I'm replacing.... let it dissolve and then add it to the tank within a few minutes or so. >____> erm. too soon?! *head_desk* is this acceptable for small water changes, or are you saying I should wait 30 minutes for LARGER water changes?

Alex, does it look like flukes to you? Not that the others' advice isn't good, but you're like the fish whisperer! You helped me so much last time around. I would appreciate any advice on the treatment. FaintailFan has advised me to order PraziPro (it's not available at my LFS).

Any salt treatments?

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Hello, it's a good idea to get Prazipro, especially because the red at the best of the pectoral fins is usually a very good indicator of flukes. Do you have Medi-Gold (antibiotic food), or can you get Kanaplex (antibiotic). Sometimes a consequence of large flukes burden is that secondary bacterial infections can occur during treatment. So we just want to be prepared for that.

As for water changes, I actually don't know how fast the pH will rise after adding it to the water. So, you might just want to determine one day how long it takes to bring the pH close to what you have in the tank (within 0.4-0.5). Once you get pH in that range, you are free to change as much of the water as you like. :)

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Hello, it's a good idea to get Prazipro, especially because the red at the best of the pectoral fins is usually a very good indicator of flukes. Do you have Medi-Gold (antibiotic food), or can you get Kanaplex (antibiotic). Sometimes a consequence of large flukes burden is that secondary bacterial infections can occur during treatment. So we just want to be prepared for that.

As for water changes, I actually don't know how fast the pH will rise after adding it to the water. So, you might just want to determine one day how long it takes to bring the pH close to what you have in the tank (within 0.4-0.5). Once you get pH in that range, you are free to change as much of the water as you like. :)

Well, I can put in an order for MediGold... or Kanaplex... I was going to order these from TastyWorms.com./ goldfishconnection.... do you recommend getting both? Also some gel repashy... the 'super green' variety...?

Edited by Sennenko

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MediGold and MetroMeds can only be purchased from goldfishconnection.com

Alex, would MG or MMs be better with secondary infection? I thought MMs . . . .

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MediGold and MetroMeds can only be purchased from goldfishconnection.com

Alex, would MG or MMs be better with secondary infection? I thought MMs . . . .

MMs has more use, but MG has the stronger antibiotics.

Either one is actually fine. :)

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