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vwashbur

Dropsy and SBD

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Hi guys,

I'm sorry I haven't been around lately. I got deflated after losing that rescue fish with worms and dropsy. I took it real hard :/ I've also been getting my butt kicked by med school

So I'm back today because Pacha has been fighting SBD for a while now. Immediately after eating he was belly up no matter what I fed. It could be Repashy, Thera A, etc. - in the end he's upside down. So last Saturday I started him (and the whole tank) on peas only for a week. Today was day 5. He was taking the peas pretty well, not as much floating and he was pooping fairly normal, consistent poops the color of peas. Last night he was fine, this morning he was bloated and fully pineconed.

The only thing I can think of is that being upside down so much has caused this issue. I still routinely clean out the filters every other week, perform 90% W/C's weekly and monitor the parameters. I imagine there couldn't be anything bacterial in there considering none of the other fish are affected.

I've included photos. They're all shots from above because he is temporarily in a tiny tub within the tank that has limited visibility but I wanted to make sure he got the meds ASAP. He had just eaten MM's so of course, he was belly up. He is squishy, which is a concern. The pineconing is fairly extensive and is even visible below the mouth in the "chin" area.

I've not had the time to set up QT yet. I will do that now. It'll be approximately 15 gallon (20 gallon tub but accounting for not filling it up all the way) and I'll heat it to 77-78 F with epsom. Is there anything anyone can think of?

DSC04044_zps36d6c188.jpg

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DSC04046_zps8e315134.jpg

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aaww hun :( i am so sorry things aren't going well for you :(

hun, i can't hang around, it's already 1am... however, just a thought in passing.. is it possible that with the rescue fish, any possibility of cross contamination between tanks? ie, if you used a water changer in the qt that you used in the main or visa versa?

aslo.. checking out the vent.. is it possible that this fish is a female? with eggs? have you noticed any chasing around the tank of recent days?

have you started with epsom? 1/4 teaspoon for every 10 gallons.... heat up to 78F?

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I'm sorry your fish is sick. Those are very helpful pictures. If you could include the rest of the answers to the questions at the top, a moderator can give your some suggestion.

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aaww hun :( i am so sorry things aren't going well for you :(

hun, i can't hang around, it's already 1am... however, just a thought in passing.. is it possible that with the rescue fish, any possibility of cross contamination between tanks? ie, if you used a water changer in the qt that you used in the main or visa versa?

aslo.. checking out the vent.. is it possible that this fish is a female? with eggs? have you noticed any chasing around the tank of recent days?

have you started with epsom? 1/4 teaspoon for every 10 gallons.... heat up to 78F?

I don't believe there was any cross contamination... I was careful to QT everything I used for that fish and once it passed everything was discarded. I would take care of my fish first and then deal with the sick one to be sure that I wasn't bringing anything in because sometimes even washing your hands once or twice doesn't get everything off. It has also been upward of two months since that fish passed, I think. But I suppose even with all the measures I took, it's possible.

Yes, it is possible Pacha is a female. I haven't had any confirmation and there hasn't been any chasing but I've never confirmed him/her a male.

I'm about to start everything. I just wanted to wait for Pacha to finish eating the meds before moving him(?) around.

I'm sorry your fish is sick. Those are very helpful pictures. If you could include the rest of the answers to the questions at the top, a moderator can give your some suggestion.

Thank you. I plan to fill out the table at the top once I get the QT set-up. Just wanted to get the ball rolling.

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ok, in addition to the metromeds/epsom routine, i would like you to also use Prazi.. do you have this on hand? just incase there is a parasitic influence such as flukes and/or tapeworms.

the prazi will not harm the routine and will not cause any harm to the fish in terms of overmedicating. i think it will be a wise addition to the treatment plan.

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I do have it in liquid form. I will add the accordingly. The QT tub won't have a filter, just a bubbler so I assume I dose back in every time for the days to be medicated and then remove as usual, then adding back in since my W/C's will be daily. Correct?

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yes, yes & yes :heart

remember, epsom at 1/4 teaspoon for every 10 gallons. keep track of the water change and redose of epsom. to be safe, if you can manage, try for 100% wc. otherwise, if your math is good, go for 50-80% daily..

good luck :)

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Ok, great. Thanks Helen :)

I prefer 100% W/C's when there's not a cycle on the QT tubs. I'm on my way out to purchase one since I threw out the appropriately sized one and the other is smaller than I'd like. I need new tubing for the bubbler since that was discarded as well.

Thanks for the help. I'll let you know when everything is set up. Go get some rest - I feel like you never sleep lol.

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Ok, getting around to the chart....Please, keep in mind the parameters will be for the QT tub. However, I will also include the main tank in parentheses just in case.

Test Results for the Following:

  • * Ammonia Level (tank): 0 ppm (0 ppm, main)
  • * Nitrite Level (tank) 0 ppm (0 ppm, main)
  • * Nitrate level (Tank) 0 ppm (10 ppm, main)
  • * Ammonia Level (Tap): 0-0.25 ppm?
  • * Nitrite Level (Tap) 0 ppm
  • * Nitrate level (Tap) 0 ppm
  • * Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) pH 8.20 (I believe my pH is slightly high however is it very consistent)
  • * Ph Level, (Tap) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) pH 8.20 (The kH value as reported by the St Petersburg Department of Water Utilities is 132-217 ppm
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Test Kit
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s) 2 Tetra Whispers EX45 with flow rate of 240 gph (total of 480 gph)
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime
  • * Water temperature? 75 F
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? 90% weekly

  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?Saturday (5 days ago) 90%
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 40 gallons, running 9 months
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 4 fish, about 3 in
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Repashy, Thera A formula and peas, 1x daily
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? No
  • * Any medications added to the tank? No
  • * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.) Pacha has been experiencing SBD for a few weeks. Ive been trying to resolve it with different foods, lowering the water. Nothing helped. He angles with his head downwards and butt upwards most of the time and after eating is typically completely upside down.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Nothing as of yesterday, but today was fully pineconed and bloated.
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Some bottom sitting after the floats are over but nothing extensive. After he gets over the floating he regains movement and will always eat again, only to float again.
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.go. Only salt and prazi when he was first introduced to the tank months ago
  • * You can really help us to identify with the concern more accurately if you post some pictures and a short video.

Pacha is in QT now. It is a 10 gallon tank (I chose to use the tank instead of a tub to have more visibility from the sides since he is dropsied) with a bubbler and heater. As Helen suggested he is being medicated with both, Prazi and epsom salt at the recommended doses. I've also gone out on a limb and raised the temperature to 80 F, which is slightly higher than generally suggested. I lost the last fish with dropsy at 78 F, so maybe the warmer temperature will aid healing better.

Interestingly enough, he is not lethargic or clamping considering how swollen he was. So this is a good sign and I'll keep monitoring him.

I have never used MM's before, so can anyone tell me the recommended dosage and the frequency with which to feed? He has only had 3 pellets so far and a pea with a granule of epsom.

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good morning hun :)

you're doing great :)

how much does Patcha weigh?

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Good news! The scales have gone down tremendously as of this afternoon. Not perfect, but significantly better.

To be honest, I'm not sure of his weight. I don't have a scale on hand but I can look into one.

I'll do a water change here shortly.

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After keeping a close eye of Pacha this evening it looks like I actually have a good shot at winning this after all. The lifted scales are practically gone, which I find very odd, but I am grateful for nonetheless. There is still some bloating and he is still soft in the belly though. I'm thinking he'll stay in QT at least a couple weeks. I'll probably carry out another couple days of epsom salt and will definitely follow through with the prazi rounds. Should I be doing 3 or 4 rounds? I know the first time I did 5 or 6 but that wasn't too long ago so I figure I don't need quite as many. I will follow through with whatever instruction I am given though.

Tonight also brought up the question of long term goals. Now that I am aware that this is a very sensitive fish how can I resolve this once and for all? I've tried everything under the sun that I could think of to get rid of this swim bladder problem and somewhere along the line the dropsy was a result of that. Whether this was bacterial, parasitic, genetic etc is what I want to know. Are there any successes with a swim bladder disorder and dropsy combination?

I'll update his photos tomorrow after his W/C.

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:clapping: moving in the right direction is always a wonderful feeling :)

i would continue to feed MM's for 14 days. if you see signs of improvement, then continue to the full course of 30 days.

swim bladder issues are very difficult to cure. it also depends how long the fish has been affected by the swim bladder problems. sometimes, if left unattended for too long (hard to say what "too long" is to the individual) symptoms become permanent.

and then it depends on the reasons why. if it's injury, there's no going back. if it's infection, there's a chance matters can be resolved, but again, depending of the severity of infection.

it's really hard to say. all we can do is treat with conventional methods and hope this helps. if not, perhaps we need to control it via the foods we feed. sometimes, smaller meals more frequenly are easier to digest if the problem is not directly swim bladder related.

these are pretty much my thoughts on it in no apparent order. excuse the ramble.

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I want to say it wasn't injury, although it is possible. Now that you said that though...the fact that there is a soft belly would typically be indicative of infection right?

I began notice a slight tilt to his/her swimming...probably 1 month ago. A certain type of food would resolve it for a few days, then it would come back so I'd try something else and the cycle would repeat.

As you said though, all I can do is treat what we see and go from there. Thanks again for all your help :)

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seeing as patcha has only been experiencing swim bladder problems for a few weeks, and then pineconed, the swim bladder problems may have been influenced by the infection that caused patcha to pinecone.

i would say, definitely contine the Epsom to 8 days (please keep track of the # of days) MM's will most likely go to the full 30 days.. Prazi, give it 5 rounds, you've got nothing to worry about with the Prazi.. and seeing as we're kicking goals so soon into treatment, may as well keep a good thing going :)

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I want to say it wasn't injury, although it is possible. Now that you said that though...the fact that there is a soft belly would typically be indicative of infection right?

sorry, i missed this. soft belly can be due to infection. but, did the soft belly come before or after the pineconing? if it came after, this is not a good sign. if it was there from when all the symptoms started prior to pineconing, then yes, this can a primary infection symptom. if after the pineconing, most likely a secondary infection symptom. which leads us to believe that whatever caused this, has advanced through the organs and the chance to recover from organ failure is very slim, but not impossible.

our focus, to keep treating and remain optimistic..

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Quite frankly, I have no idea if he had a soft belly before or after. I'd like to hope it was before if that's the case.

I'll follow the treatment plan you have suggested accordingly.

Here's today's photos:

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Its a huge improvement. Even the lifted scales under his chin are pretty much gone. The bloating subsided as of today as well. He's still soft but it's looking up for sure.

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oh wow! you're doing such a wonderful job with him hun! good work :bighug GOOOOOO Pacha! :heart

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Its really remarkable that he improved so much. Im seriously wondering if the addition of the prazi and the higher than normal temperature is what maybe made a difference.

But! You must give yourself significant credit as well! You recommended the majority of his treatment plan so YOU are a big part of his success :) Just sayin'

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He is gorgeous! Hope he continues getting better :)

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Thanks! We are still doing well. Today is day 5 of treatment and it's still steady improvement. I think we're sort of at a plateau after his scales and bloating came down. He is still soft, but I think (hopefully its not wishful thinking!) he is slightly firmer than before. He is not floating now with the MM's and a pea everyday. I think I will go ahead and order some Progold since that is one food I have not tried yet. Maybe Pacha won't float on that once his treatment is over. Does anyone know Rick's number? I've lost it...again.

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