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Sean

Ich or not ich?

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Hello everyone! :)

So I just tried out a new LFS and brought home two new red cap orandas. But when I took a close look at them on the way home, I noticed a white spot on both their fins. But after bringing them home and seeing them under the light, they have quite a few white spots. Is this ich? Of it is, how can I treat it with aquarium salt? Will the salt affect my other fish that don't have ich? And I don't have any test kits, but am planning to get some soon! Thank you!

Picture:

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o766/seannn_/20C91604-A226-44FB-9F5A-F03526340438-4547-000001EF7D152F5F.jpg

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Sometimes, it could be breeding stars, but then again they only appear on the pectoral fins and face I think. It might be ich. :(

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It is ich, and it needs to be treated. Could you head back to your LFS with some of your tank and tap water for them to test the parameters? Get exact numbers, please.

Also, please answer these questions.


    Test Results for the Following:
  • * Ammonia Level (tank):
  • * Nitrite Level (tank)
  • * Nitrate level (Tank)
  • * Ammonia Level (Tap):
  • * Nitrite Level (Tap)
  • * Nitrate level (Tap)
  • * Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
  • * Ph Level, (Tap) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners?
  • * Water temperature?
  • * How often do you change the water and how much?

  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size?
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often?
  • * Any new fish added to the tank?
  • * Any medications added to the tank?
  • * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.)
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  • * You can really help us to identify with the concern more accurately if you post some pictures and a short video.

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It is ich, and it needs to be treated. Could you head back to your LFS with some of your tank and tap water for them to test the parameters? Get exact numbers, please.

Why would I be thinking that breeding stars would pop up on the tail? :rofl

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Thank you do much for the quick replies. Unfortunately I'm leaving on vacation in a couple of hours and don't have time to make a trip, sorry! I wil ASAP. For now, do u think I can do anything to help him/her?

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Thank you do much for the quick replies. Unfortunately I'm leaving on vacation in a couple of hours and don't have time to make a trip, sorry! I wil ASAP. For now, do u think I can do anything to help him/her?

how long will you be away for vacation? will there be anyone taking care of the fish?

If you could fill out as much of the questionnaire dnalex posted above that would be really helpful to give us some info about your setup and how to proceed.

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Thank you do much for the quick replies. Unfortunately I'm leaving on vacation in a couple of hours and don't have time to make a trip, sorry! I wil ASAP. For now, do u think I can do anything to help him/her?

If you leave the fish untreated, I do not know if they will survive by the time you get back.

If you treat them, but not supervised and in a tank that is possibly uncycled, the same result will occur.

I'm sorry :(

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Aw. ): thank you very much for your help. Do you think I should remove them from the tank to prevent infecting the others in the tank?

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Aw. ): thank you very much for your help. Do you think I should remove them from the tank to prevent infecting the others in the tank?

Can you please fill out as many of the questions above to give us more information?

Removing him from the others will likely do no good. They have all been exposed to the ich at this point and all need to be treated accordingly.

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Oh sorry tithes I didn't see your reply but,

One of them stays at the bottom of the tank hardly swimming just floating there, not coming up for food while the other one acts as healthy as any other goldfish. I change 25% weekly. The water conditioner I use is tetra goldfish water conditioner. That is all I have right now. Sorry. ):

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Oh sorry tithes I didn't see your reply but,

One of them stays at the bottom of the tank hardly swimming just floating there, not coming up for food while the other one acts as healthy as any other goldfish. I change 25% weekly. The water conditioner I use is tetra goldfish water conditioner. That is all I have right now. Sorry. ):

I'm sorry, but it is really difficult for us to help without all the information.

Dnalex posted a long list of questions above for you to fill out. You can copy and paste them into your reply and fill each one out. You can leave the water parameter ones blank for now, but there are several other questions, such as how many fish, their sizes, size of your tank, how long it has been running etc. etc. If you could copy and paste those into your reply and fill them out it would be very helpful.

I also asked above how long you would be gone and if there is anyone that would be taking care of the fish in the meantime.... or if this was not planned before, is there anyone that you could possibly get to care for the fish considering they are sick?

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  • Test Results for the Following:
  • * Ammonia Level (tank):
  • * Nitrite Level (tank)
  • * Nitrate level (Tank)
  • * Ammonia Level (Tap):
  • * Nitrite Level (Tap)
  • * Nitrate level (Tap)
  • * Ph Level, (Tank) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
  • * Ph Level, (Tap) (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? I use the fluval edge 12 gallon filter. (i know that this tank is way too small for goldfish but its what someone gave me, i'm CURRENTLY investing in a 30 or 40 gallon)
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Tetra AquaSafe for Goldfish
  • * Water temperature? 70º
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? 20-30% every week

  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 3
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 12 gallons, 3 weeks
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 4, about 2"-3" each? (Rescued two of them someone who was going to flush them away) Originally planned to only have 2
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? twice a day, Hai Feng Fast Color
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? 2 Redcap Orandas that i bought that had ich. D:
  • * Any medications added to the tank? nope
  • * List previous issues experienced (dropsy, SBD, etc.)
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? One of the recaps have a few frays on its tail
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Staying at the bottom, not eating
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  • * You can really help us to identify with the concern more accurately if you post some pictures and a short video.

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Thank you for this information. Unfortunately as you already know you are very overstocked (goldfish need 15-20 gallons a piece) and given that your tank is brand new you will not have any sort of cycle, although I don't even think it would be possible to cycle this tank because it is just too many fish for such a small water volume.

In an appropriately stocked and cycled tank you should be doing a weekly 50-80% water change at minimum. In an overstocked and uncycled tank as you have here large daily water changes will be necessary, however again I don't believe that even a large daily water change would keep your parameters good.

If you aren't sure what cycling is please check out this link and ask if you have any questions :)http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/103581-the-aquarium-nitrogen-cycle-illustrated-video/

Unfortunately, in this situation it is going to be, as Alex noted above, potentially deadly to treat the fish.... and also deadly to not treat.

Could you please answer these questions I asked above:

"how long you would be gone and if there is anyone that would be taking care of the fish in the meantime.... or if this was not planned before, is there anyone that you could possibly get to care for the fish considering they are sick?"

You could use some large plastic storage bins to house your fish temporarily until you are able to get an appropriately sized tank and we could treat them in this, however there would need to be daily water changes to keep the water free of ammonia since you are not cycled.

You may also want to consider trying to return the fish before you go on vacation, considering they are sick and you are not currently equipped to house them properly. Many pet stores will do returns within a certain period. This does not however take care of your overstocking issue or the fact that your other fish have been exposed to ich and need to be treated.

For future reference, this is why quarantining any new fish you get in a separate tank for 3-4 weeks is so important.

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Thank you for answering what you could. Alex and Tithra are trying hard to help you and they need the full picture of the situation in order to be able to advise accordingly. :)

With 4 in 12 gallons, I don't think they will survive while you are away without daily 100% water changes. The filter wont be cycled yet and the ammonia build up from 4 fishies will accumulate super quickly I'm afraid.

As Tithra has asked, how long are you away for and will anyone be taking care of the fish during this time?

Even if the fish had been healthy, just before you go away on holiday is not an ideal time to buy a new pet.

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ill be gone until sunday, and no one will be home to take care of them unfortunately. :(

And the trip was on short notice, didn't even know actually. If i did i wouldn't have bought them before vacation.

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Can you return the two new ones before you leave? Or even see if the pet store would take all of them honestly. You can call and ask before driving there.

Do you have any large plastic storage bins around the house? people often use them to store clothing etc.

Edited by tithra

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I can try, but i'm not sure i'll be able to. And yes i do have one of those storage bins. Do you think i should just remove the sick ones and crank up the temperature a little bit at a time to remove the ich still floating around in the tank?

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I can try, but i'm not sure i'll be able to. And yes i do have one of those storage bins. Do you think i should just remove the sick ones and crank up the temperature a little bit at a time to remove the ich still floating around in the tank?

I would try to bring back the fish first.

If you cannot do that I would move them all to the storage bin (setup the filter and airstone on the storage bin as well). The storage bin should be larger than the tank obviously (20-30 gallons at least). Place all new water in the storage bin (this is a little risky considering we don;t know anything about your pH, but I think its the lesser of two evils).

From there you have a couple options:

1. Don't add anything to the tank and wait until sunday to assess the situation and treat when you can do regular water changes

2. Add salt to the tank and hope for the best

Both options have their downsides. With option 1 we aren't really treating the ich, just hoping it doesn't progress too fast so you can still treat when you get back. I have no way of guessing how slow/fast the ich will progress. With option 2 we are treating the ich, but the combination of salt and ammonia in your water can be dangerous to your fish and potentially cause problems.

So, I guess I will leave it up to you as to which way you want to go. Ideally you can get all fish back to a pet store where they can be treated, and when you come back you can get a larger tank, do a fishless cycle (we can help with this) and start off on the right foot if you still want to keep goldfish. If this is not possible, let us know which of the above you choose. If you choose to salt the tank we can walk you through this, but please understand that in an uncycled tank with no one around to do water changes this is potentially as dangerous as not treating.

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If you could pick up some Seachem Prime or Amquel Plus water conditioner that would also help - these can detoxify the ammonia for a couple days, so you could double/triple dose this water conditioner, add the salt and hope for the best.

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I can try, but i'm not sure i'll be able to. And yes i do have one of those storage bins. Do you think i should just remove the sick ones and crank up the temperature a little bit at a time to remove the ich still floating around in the tank?

I would try to bring back the fish first.

If you cannot do that I would move them all to the storage bin (setup the filter and airstone on the storage bin as well). The storage bin should be larger than the tank obviously (20-30 gallons at least). Place all new water in the storage bin (this is a little risky considering we don;t know anything about your pH, but I think its the lesser of two evils).

From there you have a couple options:

1. Don't add anything to the tank and wait until sunday to assess the situation and treat when you can do regular water changes

2. Add salt to the tank and hope for the best

Both options have their downsides. With option 1 we aren't really treating the ich, just hoping it doesn't progress too fast so you can still treat when you get back. I have no way of guessing how slow/fast the ich will progress. With option 2 we are treating the ich, but the combination of salt and ammonia in your water can be dangerous to your fish and potentially cause problems.

So, I guess I will leave it up to you as to which way you want to go. Ideally you can get all fish back to a pet store where they can be treated, and when you come back you can get a larger tank, do a fishless cycle (we can help with this) and start off on the right foot if you still want to keep goldfish. If this is not possible, let us know which of the above you choose. If you choose to salt the tank we can walk you through this, but please understand that in an uncycled tank with no one around to do water changes this is potentially as dangerous as not treating.

I think i'm going to go with leaving the tank alone till sunday and hoping for the best. Thank you so much for your help guys! Hopefully i can get that 40 gallon soon. :)

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Okay, please do update us as soon as you get back sunday.

Another possible option that one of our other mods Stakos just suggested is to take your tank/storage tub to a friend or relatives house who could handle some water changes while you are gone... not sure if this might be an option for you?

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Unfortunately not an option, the people that would be able to handle that are all either going on vacation with me or already are on vacation haha. I guess i just have to try and hope for the best. *fingers crossed*

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that's a shame.. that some people cannot be responsible for changing a couple of tubs of water a day :( lets hope they're still ok when you get back.

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haha it is a shame. thanks for all the help guys! will update when i get back!

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Okay, please do update us as soon as you get back sunday.

Another possible option that one of our other mods Stakos just suggested is to take your tank/storage tub to a friend or relatives house who could handle some water changes while you are gone... not sure if this might be an option for you?

Also, what should i do with my tank after, in case i decide to put some other fish in there? How can i completely remove the ich?

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