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210 Oranda

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Posts posted by 210 Oranda


  1. I'm so sorry for your loss.

     

     

    Sorry for your loss.

     

    I made my closing comments and recommendations for treatment in posts #131, 132, 138 and 139.  That is really all I can offer at this point.

     

     

     

     

    I think paying the vet for his time will cost more than the medicine itself and there is no guarantee that it will work. We had a member in London do this last year. It was very expensive and the fish still died :(

    The "C" shape one just died.. :rip:

    Lets focus on the surviving one... PLEASE :(

    Oh no. So sad. :( I am so sorry for your loss.

     

     

    Thank you.. :(


  2. Baytril injections from the vet are likely the last best option at this point. That is just my opinion. Resolving the underlying husbandry or pathogen issue is the real problem to manage, but it's also harder than just treating symptoms.

    I asked my neighbor (who's a vet) and she doesn't know anyone in town that deals with GF.. I guess the demand doesn't justify the specialty

    Out of curiosity, do you know the price range of this medicine?..


  3. How are they today?  It might be a good idea to get some soft plastic plants for your QT.  Just make sure they don't have any sharp points.  These provide cover, interest and comfort for the fish and are easy to clean and disinfect for future use.  I would especially do this if the one Butterfly dies leaving the other one alone in the QT.  I usually have one or two with a weighted base and then some floating on top to create some overhead cover.

    Great!!.. :no:  The C shape one has become pineconed..

    As you know we did not do the metro and kana together..

    She's still breathing so I would like to treat her for this internal infection..

     

    Both of the butterflies are in a 10G QT so I don't know if you want the Epsom and "whatever else meds" in the QT or in a separate bucket..

    I rather to treat togehter (I already have another one w/ dropsy in a bucket) hoping that this doesn't affect the other butterfly that just started to eat.

     

    How should I proceed ??..

     

    20151026_143100_zpsmyi264b3.jpg

     

    20151026_143035_zpsw0pcb83o.jpg


  4. I don't know anything about ryukins eating wens, like Chelsea said I think is more like an specific-fish behavior thing..

     

    Now..

    I don't know how slow of fast are the pearlscales but if they're as slow as ranchus I would keep an eye of everyone's food intake

     

    My ryukins & young orandas are the "speedsters" in the tank.. :feedme :feedme

    Every day I have to feed separately my 4 ranchus because the speedsters rush in all directions to get as much as they can in their mouths leaving the chubby ones with no food.. My orandas weren't like that, they've learned it from the ryukins.. but know knows.. maybe your ryukin is a well mannered fish :P


  5. I'll also add the safety factor in not buying the imports sold by nearly all on-line brokers.   Imported fish can bring in new diseases.  

    I was in the impression that Petco & Petsmart along with most of the LFS's bring their fish from China or from a broker along the coast such a golden phoenix fisheries in CA who supply to dozens or hundreds LFS's in the country.

     

    If this is true.. most of the GF in US are imports, right?...

    The only option we (hobbyists) will have to get something healthier is from a US breeder like the one you're mentioning in Oregon, no?

     

    I was told that "goldfishonline.com" gets their fish from golden phoenix which bring their fish from China


  6. I'm assuming you are matching the temperature of the new water to that of the tank, correct?

    Adjusting temperature from faucet when doing WC's for QT tanks is irrelevant.

    my tap's ph is 7.4 but after overnight de-gas with an air stone reaches 8.4

    Therefore aged (tub or bucket) water reaches room temperature b4 water change

    I guess the answer should be, Yes?


  7.  

     

     

    Very interesting links, thank you..

     

    I'm going to (try to) use hard water next time I do a WC to the main tank (125G)

     

    To be honest, "my crew" hasn't grow (at all) in the main tank as they should..

    I thought I just had a bad batch from the LFS but I have fish from other (reputable) sources and they haven't grown either

    (I gotta check their weight to see if there's any increment, but doubt it)

     

    It is going to be a pain to use hard because of my tank's setup but definately worth to try

     

     

    Hi again.  

     

    I have kind of a similar situation in that I can use my outside spigot except in winter.  I am going to try using Seachem Replenish for my winter water changes with my softened tap water (fortunately it is not that expensive as far as aquarium supplements go!).  I probably won't bring it all the way up to 11 with Replenish, maybe around and 8 unless I see issues (and I'll be keeping a Wondershell in there too).  I have a gH kit from API that I use to measure the hardness.  Just throwing that out there as it may be a solution for you too.

     

    Seachem also has a product called Equillibrium which is a gH booster without added sodium (for plant growers).  I don't think the extra sodium in Replenish is going to matter as much as just keeping up the Ca and Mg concentrations.  There are other gH boosters mostly marketed for Cichlids and plant growers, so you may find something even cheaper out there too.

     

    Again, I haven't tried any of this yet, it is just the plan I have going as I head into winter.  I hope everything keeps looking up for your fish!  They are so beautiful.  I love DO fish and look forward to their auction each week!

     

    How about just to "by pass" the water from the softener..?? :idont

    (I have the valve to do that, do you?)

     

    In my case I will have to run the water for several minutes to allow all "soft" water to exit the pipes.. I'm not willing to waste so much water right now..

    I'll use a hose from the outside thru the window now, I guess.. then when it gets cold.. I'll bypass it

     

     

    Never mind to the "by pass" during winter..

    That will bring Ca & Ma to my piping and eventually cause me problem$$


  8. Okay, I am actually encouraged by the video.  They are both eating the bloodworms, so let's just stick with bloodworms once a day (and nothing else) for a few days.  Go ahead and do the second water change (non-softened) tonight as planned and don't add any meds.  Keep the lights off and give them as much privacy as possible. Touch base with me in the morning and we will go from there.  

     

    I don't know if this water softener is really an issue, but with the history of your fish I think it's worth eliminating any possible culprits until we get the water test results.

    What is "exactly" what Im looking for in "that water" test.. ?

    I never done one so I don't know what to look for when I call an analysist


  9.  

     

    Very interesting links, thank you..

     

    I'm going to (try to) use hard water next time I do a WC to the main tank (125G)

     

    To be honest, "my crew" hasn't grow (at all) in the main tank as they should..

    I thought I just had a bad batch from the LFS but I have fish from other (reputable) sources and they haven't grown either

    (I gotta check their weight to see if there's any increment, but doubt it)

     

    It is going to be a pain to use hard because of my tank's setup but definately worth to try

     

     

    Hi again.  

     

    I have kind of a similar situation in that I can use my outside spigot except in winter.  I am going to try using Seachem Replenish for my winter water changes with my softened tap water (fortunately it is not that expensive as far as aquarium supplements go!).  I probably won't bring it all the way up to 11 with Replenish, maybe around and 8 unless I see issues (and I'll be keeping a Wondershell in there too).  I have a gH kit from API that I use to measure the hardness.  Just throwing that out there as it may be a solution for you too.

     

    Seachem also has a product called Equillibrium which is a gH booster without added sodium (for plant growers).  I don't think the extra sodium in Replenish is going to matter as much as just keeping up the Ca and Mg concentrations.  There are other gH boosters mostly marketed for Cichlids and plant growers, so you may find something even cheaper out there too.

     

    Again, I haven't tried any of this yet, it is just the plan I have going as I head into winter.  I hope everything keeps looking up for your fish!  They are so beautiful.  I love DO fish and look forward to their auction each week!

     

    How about just to "by pass" the water from the softener..?? :idont

    (I have the valve to do that, do you?)

     

    In my case I will have to run the water for several minutes to allow all "soft" water to exit the pipes.. I'm not willing to waste so much water right now..

    I'll use a hose from the outside thru the window now, I guess.. then when it gets cold.. I'll bypass it


  10. Last video looks like they are doing better...?  At least they're moving and both eating.

     

    Here are some more links I have found to information on calcium and water hardness.

     

    http://www2.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/HARDNESS.htm  (This perhaps the most "legit".  Not a research paper but at least written by PhD aquaculture specialist.)

     

     

    http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.html

     

    http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

     

    Perhaps those butterflies are just more sensitive to water conditions that other goldfish, which might jive with what Ken/DO was telling you.  I saw a recent video from Solid Gold where she mentioned the same about one of her new butterflies.

     

    As I said before, I have kept fish in my "softened" but un-salted water too without a problem for long periods of time.  It was only this one fish who was initially fine in the softened water who got sick shortly after I added salt to the water.  The story just seemed very similar to yours and I was trying to help.  Once I changed the water out with hard water (but still with salt) he's been fine.

    Very interesting links, thank you..

     

    I'm going to (try to) use hard water next time I do a WC to the main tank (125G)

     

    To be honest, "my crew" hasn't grow (at all) in the main tank as they should..

    I thought I just had a bad batch from the LFS but I have fish from other (reputable) sources and they haven't grown either

    (I gotta check their weight to see if there's any increment, but doubt it)

     

    It is going to be a pain to use hard because of my tank's setup but definately worth to try


  11. Well.. GE (water softener manufacturer) couldn't tell me much..

    They just said what "butterfly" has already said..

    The softener only removes Ca & Mg and replaces with Na.. (supposedly) it doesn't do anything else to any other element

    Screenshot%2031_zpsg1d9ekcm.png

     

     

    Here's the report of the local water.. I don't understand it but maybe some of you do and can tell if some of the elements are (or could be) bad for GF

     

    Screenshot%2032_zpsltaav0fm.png

     

    Screenshot%2033_zpscosef2ol.png


  12. That's extremely bizarre. As with previous issues I'd really wonder about your water quality. Given the price of your stock, could you just bite the bullet and get a professional analysis of your taps done so you know exactly what you're working with in terms of phosphorus, arsenic, iron content, dissolved calcium, etc etc? Are there any plastics, resins, or glues in your aquarium filters that aren't food safe

    These are things really worth tracing just to eliminate them as variables. With fish from so many different sources having problems at various times it could just be really bad luck. Or not. Know what I mean?

    It is crazy, isn't !?.. they look "kinda" normal for a second then back to "trashed"..

    Im supposed to dig a little in regards my water softener system

    I know is not an RO system but Im not sure what system it is and what does it do to the water (chemically)

    If I don't find answers from manufacturer or City sources I'll be hiring someone to do an analysis

     

    What exactly am I asking to the analysis people in regards the water ??

    _______________________________________

     

    In regards "luck".. I don't know..

    I have nine fish to be in what I see as "thriving" mode.. but who knows, maybe they're not

     

    One thing I remember that Ken (dandy) told me is that this butterflies usually get lethargic at first then either get better or (they) never get better..

    They're used to ponds and direct sunlight so I don't know if I ended up with "those drama fish" that will never be able to acclimate to a new enviroment


  13. You can use that 29G to make a sump and buy a 55G (for$55) for the 3 fish

     

    I personally have #2 (trickle) which I think is the most common (but not sure)

    It is excellent for biological filtration but not mechanical.

    I added some pothos plant in the return area along witha DIY "algae scrubber" to help with nitrates

     

    The one I have I purchased it from a closing store for $50 w/ pump included but they can go for $150-$200 new (without pump)

    You should try Craigslist.. someone is always upgrading or retiring

     

    Watch the videos below and you'll find out how much will it cost (more less)  to make one

     

     

    sump1 - fluidized moving

     

    Sump2 - Emerged Trickle

     

    Sump3 - Submerged


  14. Just do the paraguard unless Jared instructs you otherwise. I'm punting to him on this ;)

     

     

    Don't force feed the Butterfly today.  Just offer some food after the water change and leave it in the tank.  Today's goal is to de-stress.

     

    Here they are after 50WC with non-soft water.. I'll do another 50WC this evening

    They do go completely motionless & C shape a few minutes after feeding

     


  15. Okay, thank you for the treatment synopsis.  What I would do is give them a day off of all meds tomorrow.  Do your morning water change as planned, feed them and then turn off the tank lights and try to leave them alone.  You may even want to cover the tank with a towel to give them comfort.  Let me know how they are after the water change and feeding and I'll get back to you about the plans for evening.  

     

    The Paraguard is not an antibiotic per se, so it's not the end of the world that you interrupted the treatment.  We may very well want to continue with the Paraguard (or start 0.3% salt instead) based on how tomorrow goes, but I would really like to see how they do with some respite from meds and attention.  

     

    I would also recommend that you get some Aqua Prazi powder for quarantine and mixed treatments and save the Prazipro for fluke maintenance rounds (without salt) in the main tank.  The powdered Prazi can be used with salt at any concentration and also with Malachite Green.

    Sounds like a plan.. I'll shoot a short video tomorrow night to see their behavior

    Where do I get the powder ?? Amazon,Ebay ??


  16.  

     

    Okay, what are the symptoms as of now...just lethargy?  I guess I'm confused as to why we are using Paraguard rather than 0.3% salt for the antiparasitic treatment :idont

    Symptoms as today:

     

    Butterfly 1 (red, black, white)

    C shape most of the day.. straighten up only when searching for food or eating, then back to "C" shape.. lethargic all day

     

    Butterfly 2 (black, white)

    Lethargic and refuses to eat normal (since Sep 18), spits out food and has fin rot

    I move this fish to a small container in a daily basis to force feed / syringe feed.

    I have seen a very small improvement in this one.. I see her searching for food every now and then

    and I've seen her eating a few brine shrimp and bloodworms, not all the time, very sporadically

     

     

     

    Okay, what are the symptoms as of now...just lethargy?  I guess I'm confused as to why we are using Paraguard rather than 0.3% salt for the antiparasitic treatment :idont

    Symptoms as today:

     

    Butterfly 1 (red, black, white)

    C shape most of the day.. straighten up only when searching for food or eating, then back to "C" shape.. lethargic all day

     

    Butterfly 2 (black, white)

    Lethargic and refuses to eat normal (since Sep 18), spits out food and has fin rot

    I move this fish to a small container in a daily basis to force feed / syringe feed.

    I have seen a very small improvement in this one.. I see her searching for food every now and then

    and I've seen her eating a few brine shrimp and bloodworms, not all the time, very sporadically

     

    Okay, so as of now, there is no heavy breathing going on, correct?   

     

     

    Not normal but not heavy either.. just faster than normal (does it make sense ?)

     

    Let me rephrase what I said above..

     

    "C" shape butterfly, normal while in C shape

     

    The other butterfly, not heavy but not normal either. A little faster than normal


  17.  

    By the way.. I moved the ranchu to the main tank on Oct 10 after finishing the 14 days of metro..

    He is super active & loves to eat but Im just a little concerned of what you said..

    Meaning that if the butterflies "have something" is possible that the ranchu has it and now it has been transfered to the main tank.. 

    So, was the Paraguard dosed from 10/8-10/11, interrupted and then restarted on 10/21?

     

    As for the Ranchu, I wouldn't worry about it.  There's nothing to be done about it now, anyway.  If this is parasitic, it "may" be an issue.  If it is bacterial. it probably won't be a concern.  Just observe for any problems in the main tank. 

     

     

    Yea.. :doh11: sorry .. I stopped paraguard because I think I saw them getting worse.. and I thought it was too much meds (kana + paraguard + prazi).. "another uneducated guess"

     

    And as for the main tank.. I just moved minutes ago one the residents to a bucket.. dropsy

    Who knows if the ranchu brought something into the tank.. I just (top view) the new ranchu and his scales are not flush-flat to the body but they're not pineconed either

     

    I don't wanna get distracted from the butterflies thread.. sorry..

     

    I'll treat dropsy and if needed I'll start another thread


  18. Okay, what are the symptoms as of now...just lethargy?  I guess I'm confused as to why we are using Paraguard rather than 0.3% salt for the antiparasitic treatment :idont

    Symptoms as today:

     

    Butterfly 1 (red, black, white)

    C shape most of the day.. straighten up only when searching for food or eating, then back to "C" shape.. lethargic all day

     

    Butterfly 2 (black, white)

    Lethargic and refuses to eat normal (since Sep 18), spits out food and has fin rot

    I move this fish to a small container in a daily basis to force feed / syringe feed.

    I have seen a very small improvement in this one.. I see her searching for food every now and then

    and I've seen her eating a few brine shrimp and bloodworms, not all the time, very sporadically


  19. 210, will you post a nice chronological synopsis of the treatment thus far for these butterflies (like you did for the Chus).  That would be extremely helpful.

     

    Sep 15: Arrival (2 butterflies & 1 ranchu)

     

    Sep 15-18: De-stress days (just WC & double prime)

     

    Sep 18: 1st day (black+white) butterfly shows no interest in food

     

    Sep 19: 100%WC + 110g salt (@ 0.1% - 29G tank) + prazipro single (1st round)

     

    Sep 21: 85%WC + 90g salt + 1.25 tsp prazi (re-dose)

     

    Sep 23: 90%WC

     

    Sep 25: 90%WC + 98g salt

     

    Sep 27: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (1st round)

     

    Sep 29: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (2nd round)

     

    Oct 1: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (3rd round)

     

    Oct 3: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (4th round)

     

    Oct 5: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (5th round)

     

    Oct 7: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (6th round)

     

    Oct 8: paraguard added 1st time

     

    Oct 9: 90WC + 98g salt + Metro powder (7th round) + paraguard

     

    Oct 11: 100WC + Kana powder (1st round) + prazipro single (2nd round) + paraguard

     

    Oct 13: 100WC + prazipro single re-dose + Kana (2nd round)

     

    Oct 15: 100wc (remove all prazi) + kana (3rd round)

     

    Oct 17: 100WC + prazipro single (3rd round) + kana (4th round)

     

    Oct 19: 100wc + prazi single re-dose + Kana (5th)

     

    Oct 21: 100WC (remove all prazi) + Kana (6th) + paraguard


  20. Okay, we have conferred on the back end and aren't clear on the relationship between those two fish. Were they from the same seller and in quarantine together?

    It's not looking good for the original butterfly. It may be harsh, but as a last ditch attempt at dealing with what I suspect parasitic we need to do two weeks of paraguard with a double dose of prazi and .1% salt. Change the water every three days. Please check and recheck your husbandry in the tank th the c shaped butterfly, that the water parameters are stable and you're not over feeding.

    If this doesn't work, assume the imports have some sort of aggressive infection we cannot treat without prescription antibiotics and a vet's care. In that case clean, warm water and time are the best you can do, unless you'd consider euthanizing them.

    Taryl.. Since this (above) reply does not longer apply because of what Hikari has told you..

    What do you suggest ??.. I'm doing 50%wc in the morning w/ non-soft water then another 50% in the evening (w/ no-soft)

     

    What about meds, if any ??


  21.  

     

     

    Paraguard has been indicated to not interact with prazi on Seachem'a side, but I took that to mean it didn't impact the efficacy of the Paraguard. I haven't checked with Hikari but can try calling them later this afternoon when I'm back home. It would be worth finding out.

    More and more I'm thinking the powdered praziquantel is the way to go - much less finicky. I wish it was more widely available up her!

    Metro was a fourteen day course of the Seachem powdered product, flakes were tried initially it the fish wouldn't eat and so that idea was scrubbed. Forcefeeding has been moderately successful from what the op tells us.

    Yes, I agree.  Prazipro is a fussy substance.  I use Aqua Prazi for quarantine and mixed treatments and just use Prazipro for maintenance rounds with no salt.

     

    What was the dosage of the Metro.  I use the upper 200 mg per 10 gallons as the water borne isn't as readily absorbed as the food.  Food is better.  I think NLS Hex Shield is our best new option if the fish is eating. I know this guy wasn't eating.

     

     

     

    I'm not positive which dose he used - I always mean the 2 measure dose unless I specify otherwise, but there was a lot going on in this thread and I'm not sure we clarified that. 210, how many measures of metro were you dosing?

     

    I used the metroplex as directed.. 1 level scoop per 10 gallon of water,  from September 27 to October 10.. (w/ .1% salt)

    Then from October 11 to October 22 Kana along with prazipro (single dose, no salt)

     

    On the bright side.. I've seen the (original) butterfly to look for food at times..

    she still spit out the gel while syringe fed but I have seen her getting some brine shrimp when I toss them in for the "other" butterfly

    However.. that "hungry/looking for food" behavior is inconsistent.. but I think it is something positive

     

    Okay, they've changed the directions and formula slightly.  They use to give you the option of 1-2 scoops per 10 gallons.  I still use 2 scoops per 10 gallons as water borne Metronidazole isn't absorbed as well as the Metro food.  I also general combine Metroplex with a gram negative antibiotic such as Kanaplex simultaneously because Metro is a very specific medication for a couple of parasites and gram positive bacteria and doesn't provide a broad spectrum treatment.  Since most parasites will survive Metronidazole and most bacterial infections are gram negative, it is not usually effective on it's own.  It is, however, effective when combined with the appropriate (complimentary) meds.  

     

    What meds are in the water currently?

     

     

    Yesterday was the last (6th) dose of kana.. so today is their 12th day

    they also have the paraguard (yesterday & today), but nothing else (yet)..

     

    I know that I should have used the kana + metro as combo but things started w/ metro just as "preventive-antiprotoazan" method

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