Hi.

this is my first post, but I've read these boards many times. They've been very helpful in the past without my having to post. This time, however, I'm stumped (so stumped, in fact, that I may have accidently posted an incomplete message already on the topic. Sorry if I did) We have a fantail, by the name of Freddy. We've had him for a couple of years now, and he has survived some real stupid beginner mistakes... survived, in fact, when his two buddies didn't. :-( We finally got him a nice big 15 gal. tank (54l) and he looked quite lonely in that big thing, so we thought we would get him some other fish to keep him company. First we tried some form of algae eater, but the store told us wrong, he he died... I don't think he could stand our 7.8 ph. So, last week, after reading more thoroughly on the subject, we decided to get a few White Clouds to keep him company. After the other fish died, I checked the water parameters, and everything is normal. no ammonia, no nitrites, and low nitrates, but after the fish died, I did a 25% water change any way. I let the tank go for over a week, and Freddy acted normally. So, this past Monday, after checking all the parameters again, we went and bought five small White Clouds. Unfortunately, immediately after putting them in the tank, one of them tended to keep to himself, although he swam normally, and seemed ok. However, Friday morning, he was stuck to the bottom of the filter. I pulled him out, thinking he was dead, but he was still barely alive. I put him in his own bowl for a while, but it was obvious he wouldn't survive, so I put him to sleep.

That afternoon, Freddy was sitting at the bottom corner of the tank. He was right side up, and didn't seem sick. In fact, periodically, he ups and swims around normally. This is where I'm confused. He doesn't act _sick_ per se, just mopey. When he's resting, his fins are all down, but when swimming, they are normal. Just to be sure, I did another 20% water change today, but I did tests last night, and everything was normal.

Could he have caught something from the dead fish? Is it possible that the fish dying has depressed him? Or maybe the shock of having the new fish? I'm truly stumped...

To summarize. Ammonia and nitrites, 0. Nitrates, low, hardly on the chart. PH 7.8 or so, oh, and this is a rock steady thing. Ph never changes or varies from week to week that I've remembered. Any ideas? Is he sick? Will he die? (my children will die if he dies... We already have two goldfish in our cemetery, and the mortuary has two more for when the ground thaws--oh, and the two other gold fish died about a year ago, so they don't figure into this equation).

Thanks in advance.
-Jon
Krakow, Poland

How big is this fish?

He's about 4 inches, not including tail...

Actually, I have an update. After writing my original post, I went and looked at him again. he's been hard to look at, because of where he's been moping, but after the water change, he was swimming around, and I got a better look at him. I could see the tell-tale spots on his tail, and think I saw one or two on his body as well... yes... ich...

I have some treatment for it. It's a Polish product, called MFG. I've been using a few drops of it the past couple of days, but this morning gave the full dose. We'll see if it helps or not. Unfortunately, since I started using it, I'm stuck with it, at least for the next few days.

I'm also buying a heater today, and will be slowly raising the temperature of the water to 78F. I fear to go above that for the sake of the White Clouds. Is it safe to take them above 78?

A couple of questions. How long should I keep the temp raised and lights out? Is is possible a White Cloud brought this with him? Can the White Clouds catch this?

TIA

-Jon

The white clouds probably introduced the ick to the tank. All fish can catch this parasite (there is even a marine version of it).

It will be best to keep the tank lights out and the temp at 80F. The white clouds won't mind that temp, so don't worry. You need to make sure the tank is well-aerated at this temp however as warm water carries much less oxygen.

You will probably need to repeat the medication treatment a couple of times to completely get rid of the ich; it has a 3-stage lifecycle and is only vulnerable to the meds at one stage, so more can hatch out and cause havoc just when you think it's all over!

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the info. I feared it was the WhiteClouds, especially since one already died... I just hadn't read any info on what can catch this thing... All the medications I've seen show goldfish on the outside. :-)

Thanks for the concise info. Especially the part about aeration. I had particularly forgotten that, and didn't know about the repeating of the treatment. The bottle says nothing about repeating... I shall be doing this. Thanks!

I'll post an update when and if there any changes...

Thanks.

-Jon

Update on my bout with ich...

As of yesterday, there were no white spots, and there may not have been any on Wednesday, either, but it was hard to tell. Freddy is swimming and behaving normally, thankfully...

I do have a question. How long should I keep the lights out, temp up, and medicine in the tank? In other words, when can I safely return to normal? Is there a standard period of time? Will I have to purge the tank of medicine, or does it disperse itself as it's "used"? How long should I wait? The medicine I'm using, Tetra something (It's in German! It may be Tetra Aquasafe for Goldfish concentrate, but I'm not sure), says that it can be added again in 8 weeks as a preventative measure, but that's a long time! Also, it says to do a 30% water change at the end, but doesn't say when that is!!! (also, this is a Polish translation from German, so it is possible this information is wrong...

thanks again for any help, and thanks again for the help so far!!!

-Jon

Hi Glasshouse

Very glad to hear Freddy's better - well done!

If there have been no spots for at least 6 days then it would be OK to ease up on the med, temp and darkness. There isn't really a 'set' time for this, but if your tank is sitting at 80F the ich lifecycle will be turning over about every 3 days, so more than 6 days without spots should mean the ich has been fully eradicated.

Ease the temp back down gradually over the next few days so as not to stress the fish and don't turn on the tank lights straightaway either - have some nearby room lights on for a little while first, otherwise Freddy will be dazzled!

When the 6 days are up, I would do a thorough gravel vacuum to get any last few unhatched cysts out and a large water change (about 50%) as well. You should also add activated carbon to your filter for 24 hours or so to get all the med out of the water. After this has been done I might also be inclined to add a little salt to the tank - 1 tsp per gallon - for about a week as a preventative measure against secondary infections. The problem with ich is that the lesions it creates in the skin leave the fish more open to infection by bacteria or other parasites. Salt helps guard against this (and will also discourage any last ich in the tank). You can use any salt as long as it does NOT have anti-caking agents in it. Dissolve it first in a little tank water and then pour the solution into the tank.

Hope this helps.

That was just what I needed!! Thanks bunches! :-)