Name: Didn't have one.
Tankmates: Giant Girl (Common), Broken Jaw (Common). Both seem to be healthy.
Type: Common.
Gender: Female.
In season: No.
Time of death: Yesterday, found dead at 8:00 PM.
Last seen alive: Yesterday, at 10:00 AM. Seemed perfectly fine then, no signs of distress.
Anything noticable: Nothing - even when dead, the fish looked perfectly healthy.
Anything noticable INSIDE the fish: Most everything checked out, but the gall bladder was a bright green.

Also, the swim bladder wasn't shiny.

Hi Bob -- In order to help determine what happened to your fish we need the answers to the questions at the top of the page. Without that info we would just be taking random guesses.

BTW, I don't think it is abnormal for the gall bladder to be green. The gall bladder stores bile, which (at least in humans) is green.

I can't give most of it because my father won't get a testing kit (I HAVE asked him about it), but here is what I can tell you:
Filters: Two 70 gallon AquaClear power filters.
Tank size: 40 gallons.
Ph: Around 6 (this was done with ancient strips, keep in mind)
Food: Wardley brand floating goldfish pellets. The container also says "Medium Moyen"

Also, the gall bladder should be black and shiny:
http://thegab.org/Articles/images/InternalAnatomy04.jpg
This is what I have seen in other goldfish I have opened up in the past. The Moor in the photo (not mine) died from an abnormal swim bladder, btw.

If your pH is actually 6.0 then that could be your problem. That is much too low and it is probably on its way lower. I would do a large water change ASAP.

We stopped doing larger water changes as they were really stressing the fish. Also, I have read that round goldfish pellets can contribute to gall bladder disease. Could the food I am using cause this?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31YB...L500_AA280_.jpg

A pH of 6.0 will be much more stressful to your fish than a large water change. If you don't take care of this it will kill your other two fish.

Maybe your fish were getting stressed by large water changes because the water you were putting in had much different chemistry than what you were taking out? If you don't have a test kit you can't be sure, were you matching the pH?

That though HAS crossed my mind, not that I have managed to convince my father of it. Nevertheless, I will mention it to him again.

My father says that the water here is VERY alkaline, which would make the pH go up. He also says that the last time he did a large water change, the fish became very stressed, especailly the now-dead fish, and they wouldn't eat for two weeks. Also could the dead fish have had a gall bladder infection? As I said before, it was bright green on the outside, and it didn't appear to be shiny. I didn't open it up, however.

A pH of 6.0 is acidic, not alkaline. An acceptable pH range for goldfish is 7.2 - 8.2, so you are significantly below that. When was the last time that you did a water change? I have never heard of goldfish that got so stressed from a water change that they did not eat for two weeks.

The last full water change was six weeks ago. A small water change was two weeks ago.

Bob - your Dad needs to read up on some basics of fishkeeping.

I think you are looking for the 'obscure' and missing the obvious here - stocking levels and good water keeping are uppermost in fish care.

1)Water changes do not stress fish - unless the PH is very different between tap and tank.

2) Goldfish need weekly water changes - monthly to 6 weeks is hopeless. Without this their waste has nowhere to go; the nitrates soar and the PH crashes downwards. This might explain why the fish seem upset after a change.

3) Fishkeeping without a test-kit is madness. Unless you know your water chemistry you cannot keep your fish safe.

If you skip over these essentials, your fish will go down with all manner complaints.

Please get him to read the links below my signature. Ask him to buy a freshwater dropper kit, like the API Master Kit.

My guess is that your fish are being poisoned by their own water.

pH: 6

Nitrates: 80

Ammonia: .25

Nitrites: 0

If you got these numbers from a good drop tester, your fish are in some trouble. PH of 6 is way too low. It needs to be between 7.2 and 8. Ammonia should be 0 and nitrates should be around 20-40. Water changes do not stress fish. If you don't do an immediate very large-75-90% water change, I fear for the future of your fish.

When you have nitrates, you shouldn't have ammonia. If you have both, then that sounds like you had a cycle crash. And 80 ppm nitrates is massively deadly. You need to do a temperature matched, dechlorinated 90% water change immediately. Then do daily water testing and at least 50% water changes until the tank recycles. More depending on your test readings. You need to get the nitrates down to no more than 20, preferably lower, in my own personal opinion. The ammonia is also going to raise as the tank recycles, so that needs to be kept to 0.5 or lower. Testing and water changes are of utmost importance.

Also, your ph is low and it needs to be raised to around 7, but you can't do that fast as that will be as big a shock to the fish as any other bad thing. It needs to be raised slowly. Ph up type kits are temporary and if you allow the ph to go up and down, that's even more stressful for the fish. I would suggest adding some well-rinsed crushed coral to the tank. This will raise the ph slowly. And monitor the ph very carefully to keep an eye on what it's doing.

Keep in touch here. We always here to helping you!

Oh, and if you got these ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings because you finally got your dad to get test kits, first, I say good for you and two, I'm very glad to see that your dad is open to learning. I hope that you thanked him very much for getting you these test kits. It was a very nice, good thing to do!

Yes, my father has put in a pH upper, but I will ask him about a water change. Also, what is the best solution for the Nitrates? I think they may have poisoned that fish.

As I said, a ph up is not the best choice. Something slow and long lasting like crushed coral is a much better option.

Yes, it is most certain that the high nitrates have poisoned the fish. The ONLY solution to reduce the nitrates is a major, 90% water change as previously described. That is the ONLY solution. And large water changes are the ONLY solution to keeping the ammonia low, which is far worse for the fish than nitrates and which is going to get worse since your cycle crashed. You MUST do those water changes or your fish are not going to do well.

I will have my father do the water change once the pH is back up, but not before then, as putting our alkaline tap water in the currently acidic tank water, would really stress the fish, and could send them into shock. (For the record, the water my father had been putting in recently was on the acidic side, so as not to stress the goldfish)

I'm confused. It doesn't make sense here. You have alkaline tap water, but your tank water is acidic and you're adding ph up to your tank water to bring the originally alkaline tap water that then somehow got acidic in the tank back to an alkaline level? How did alkaline tap water become so acidic in the tank?

Massively high nitrates and ammonia are far, far more stressful on fish that a moderate ph change. You know, a much, much better solution to this problem, if you have alkaline tap water and acidic tank water, as well as deadly high nitrates and soon to be potentially deadly ammonia levels is not to let your fish sit in deadly, toxic water that is killing them while you hopefully wait for the ph to rise by introducing chemicals, but to do about 20% water changes every single day. This will slowly mix in the more alkaline water as well as take out at least some small portion of deadly toxic water.

"How did alkaline tap water become so acidic in the tank?"

For this simple reason: when water changes are only done between 4 -6 weeks, the nitrates, which are acidic, escalate beyond the capacity of the waters buffering power (alkalinity) and cause the PH to crash.
The problem with this tank is that there has been a cycle crash. In a plunging PH much of the beneficial bacteria are lost and the cycle can be almost completely killed off.

The way to manage the water properly is through regular water changes.

"For the record, the water my father had been putting in recently was on the acidic side, so as not to stress the goldfish"

This is the wrong way to manage the problem. What must be done is to gradually raise the PH to the tap level, through small partial changes as Lynda suggested. How best to achieve this depends upon how big your tank is and how many fish there are. Can you tell us?
You can put the fish in a holding crate to which you add a small volume of water every 10 mins until the PH is equal to the tap, or you can try to match the tank and tap this way if your tank is not too big as to make the process impossibly long. Don't mess around with PH adjusters - this is terribly stressful to your fish who need to be in clean, fresh water and relieved of such a high organic load.

The most important thing to understand is that what is most stressing your fish is being left in unchanged water for weeks on end. Water changes are the only way to reduce nitrates and remove the build up of harmful bacteria.
You must get a proper drop kit and test the water daily until the cycle is re-established. 80 for nitrates is impossibly high and the amount of unhelpful bacteria present will be awful, too. The gravel must be completely vacuumed to remove the toxic build-up of waste and once the PH is matched you should do a 100% water change.

This was very interesting! Thank you Pixie! Learning and learning! For myself if for no one else! I love all of you people and what you teach me each day!

I have been talking to my father about a large water change, but he is VERY reluctant to do it, because he says it would really stress the fish.

My father has done a 17 gallon water change.

"My father has done a 17 gallon water change."

Great! Thank goodness for that! How big is the tank? How many fish in there?

I have been talking to my father about a large water change, but he is VERY reluctant to do it, because he says it would really stress the fish.

This is a very common error. So for future reference, explain that the largest stress comes from filthy water, a crashed and acidic PH and very high nitrates. A water change is a RELIEF from all that! Water changes for goldfish must be done weekly. The monthly routine is for tropicals which have a much lower waste output

If water changes are not regular, the level of harmful bacteria explode in numbers causing all sorts of infections; in addition, the nitrates (which are acidic) climb high enough to eventually crash the cycle and your PH dives into acidity.

Get him to read the link on the Nitrogen Cycle underneath my signature.

The tank is 40 gallons with two large fish, one white and one orange.

That's not even a 50% water change. While the effort was admirable and it was, at least, something, with the problems that are going on in your tank, it's still simply not enough.

Forgive me for being abrupt and perhaps too honest and forthright, but, somehow along the way, your father became very misinformed about some things and he has become dead set in his mis-beliefs now because of it. Kokos is a top-notch site dedicated exclusively to the keeping of goldfish. It is not simply a site comprised of peculiar, eccentric nerds who gather together and engage in puerile chatter about goldfish. It has, as its Administrators, Moderators and Members at all levels, all matter of scientists, biologists, chemists and more who have advanced college degrees and many years of hands-on experience in a variety of directly and indirectly related fields. They know what they are talking about. I know that we admire and respect our parents. I also know that, even when we disagree with our parents, we still are expected to abide by their wishes and rules. But, somehow, new knowledge needs to find its way into your father's realm of fishkeeping or your fish will be the ones to suffer for it. Again, I apologize for being, perhaps, too blunt and honest.

There are some really knowledgeable people here giving some extremely excellent advice, so I hesitate to jump in and say anything. But here's something to think about. When I do a water change, I put the pH adjuster product in the bucket of water that I will be adding, and let it sit a bit, and check it with a test. That way I know exactly what pH water I am adding, and know it will be within the same range.

Since my tanks are at a pretty steady 7.0, when I change water, I make sure I set the water in the bucket to 7.0 before I add it.

It's harder with a large tank, for sure, but I thought I'd throw that in, in case your father would feel more comfortable with that approach.

When I first started, I did everything wrong with my water and had a lot of fish become sick or die, but since I learned what the folks on Koko's say to do, I have had zero problems with any of my fish. Good water = healthy fish, I believe that's true. And keeping the pH the same is so important in water changes - I agree that changing the pH is what can make them go nuts.

There are a lot of different products that can be used to adjust pH. I used to use a pinch of baking soda, and now I use a different product, but the main thing is to get it set right, and be able to test it.

How did the fish do with the 17-gallon water change?

Good luck with your fish, it sounds like you worry about them and want them to be ok.

Bob - been thinking about your problem overnight...

I just reread Pixiefishes post, and it seems like the plan would be to gradually raise the pH up to the tap water level, so we have opposite problems, and my idea doesn't really apply to you. Pixiefish really knows her stuff, so I'm sure she has a good plan.

Also, I assume your father adds a dechlorinator to the water during water changes. He probably is, but I'm just mentioning it. Water changes shouldn't stess the fish. My fishes seem to actually like it when I change their water.

20 gallon water change done with tap water.

pH: 7.5

Nitrates: 20

How did the fish do with the water change? Good I hope.

Here's a question - do you have well water? If it's "city water" then I'm still wondering about whether you are adding a dechlorinator, or letting the water sit out overnight, or some other way to get the chlorine out of it. Is it possible that's part of the problem, why the fish react badly to water changes?

Just a thought. Good luck with your fish!

We DO let the water sit out. Oh, and Broken Jaw is much active now. Can't say the same for the Giant Girl, though, nor is she looking that good. Her "tumor" is large and flat (not to mention beige and ugly), her sides are bulging (though she does NOT have dropsy), and the top of her head is swollen.

So, did you have any luck getting your Dad to read about water chemistry and the 10 steps? With these sick fish, you need to be doing large water changes each week.

I am working on it. Also, the Giant Girl's scales are in fact sticking up just a tiny bit.

The Giant Girl has been moved into a bucket, though it is a bit small for her.

The Giant Girl is dead now. What was likely her intestine was heavily swollen. Also, the tumor did not connect internally, which suggests that she had skin cancer which then spread to her intestine.

Sorry for the quadruple post, but since I can't edit my other posts...


My father has done a 21 gallon water change, and the nitrates are now at 20.

aww I'm sorry to hear about your girl dying.

I've lost fish to pH problems. And this "tumor" you describe sounds alot like an infection. When the pH level reaches that low, the goldfish's slime coat kinda solidifies and falls of it. This opens the already-stressed fish to any baddies in the tank.

The "tumor" may not have been connected internally because it was probably a bacterial infection on your poor little fishy. The likeliness that it was a cancer, is VERY low given your situation. I have a fish with tumors that will one day (probably soon) kill it. The way you describe her problems coupled with the dropsy realllly sounds like bacterial infection brought about by bad water upkeep. Again, you are overanylizing it. You're fish didn't have cancer, it was bad water quality. There's a saying here at Koko's, "Take care of the water and it will in turn take care of the fish".

It looks like you're on the road to getting your water chemistry under control though. Go you! Keep doing those water changes or (to put it bluntly) your fish WILL die. It seems like alot of work, but in the end to see your happy healthy fishies begging for your attention/food is sooo rewarding!!

A good test to perform when you're having pH problems with your water is to fill a bucket with water, test the pH of it, let it sit for a few days in the open then test the pH again. If the pH stays the same, it's something in your tank (probably the nitrates as was described above) that's causing your problems.

Do you have access to a printer? If so, you might wanna try printing up the links in Pixiefish's siggie and putting them near/on top of the tank where your dad might see 'em

Oh, yes. Nitrates are now around 5. As for Broken Jaw, she is more active now, but is also a bit more skittish, too. So, I guess the Giant Girl had a bacterial infection that spread to her intestine.

You have NO idea how happy I am to see those nitrates at 5! Of course, high water readings are not the only thing. Bad bacteria can still accumulate even when you have excellent readings, so now, the next step is trying to incorporate 100% temperature matched, dechlorinated water changes once a month. Please, if you keep up with the water changes, I know, we can all promise that your fish will do sooooo much better! Keeping the main focus on the water, and not the fish is what you need to do. Again, we can't say it enough. If you take care of the water, the water will take care of the fish.

Nitrates are currently at 15.

Oh, yes. One more thing about the Giant Girl: there had been a lump on her side for years, but only in recent months, did it become a full fledged "tumor".

Broken Jaw is dead now. Didn't seem to be anything wrong with her. She actually had little fat, but a TON of eggs in her ovaries.

pH = 8
Nitrate = 20
Nitrite = .10
Ammonia = .10

None of us are, in the least, surprised that you never find any obvious diseased organs in your fish and, quite frankly, it upsets us all that you feel this need to continually cut open fish to find a reason to place blame anywhere else but where blame needs to be placed. When will you (and your father) learn that it doesn't have to be a tumor or cancer or diseased gall bladder or other obvious physical anomoly that kills a fish? And the bottom line is, even if it is tumors or cancer or diseased gall bladders, these diseases come from inviting deadly bacteria into the fishes' evironment. Your fish all died because of poor water conditions and everyone's failure to acknowledge that and/or do anything about it. An "autopsy" will not show poor water quality unless you do microscopic tissue slide tests for pathogens. Biological pathogens are what killed your fish. And you are going to continue to kill fish as long as none of you acknowledge and accept this. Please, please, please.... for the love of god and for the sake of fish to come, please learn to understand the importance of water changes and keeping your readings as close to 0 as possible. If you and your father won't do this, please, we all beg you, please do not choose to keep fish. It's a lose-lose situation for all.

I'm going to have to put a spell on you for that.

Spirits of Mist,
And Creatures of Bog,
Change now Lynda Von G,
Into the shape of a Frog!


My opening up fish is NOT about blame, it is simply about seeing if there was anything noticeably wrong inside. While nitrates had gone back up a little, they were still far from where they were before, when the Giant Girl died. and if Broken Jaw was still alive, I would have my father do a large water change this weekend. It is likely that a bacterial infection was what happened, so I will not be getting any other fish, as there might still be deadly stuff in there, even with the tank drained.

I'm sorry if I'm being hard on you, but it's frustrating for all of us to keep trying to lend help when you won't listen. I know it's mostly your father, but still.... I'm glad that you acknowledge that it was a bacterial infection though. That's good. We just want all goldies to be healthy and well-taken care of... that's all. I have to say though, with your interest in fish anatomy, you'd make a great aquatic biologist!

I do too listen.