[*]Test Results for the Following:
Ammonia Level? 0.5 (it's always this after water changes)
Nitrite Level? 0
Nitrate level? 10
Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? 8.2 (will double check KH & GH soon)
Ph Level (KH/GH) out of the Tap? Normally 7.8 (will retest soon along with KH & GH out of tap)
Brand of test-kit used? (strips or drops?) API Master Test Kit, API GH & KH Drop Test Kit
[*]Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 10 Gallon QT Tank, About 2 Months??
[*]What is the name and size of the filter/s? Penguin 200 Bio-Wheel
[*]How often do you change the water and how much? Right now, since they are in QT and getting meds, 50%-100% every day for three days, then 2 days with no meds, no water changes unless ammonia gets higher than 0.5.
[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? Two 2 inch (not including tail) Orandas
[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime, 0.3% Salt (been at that level for over two weeks) Ammo Lock a few times but is not currently in the water
[*]Any medications added to the tank? Yes. Prazi (3 days on, 2 days off, etc) Currently on day 19. Dimilin (because of anchor worm on Miranda) (3 days on, 2 days off) Currently on day 19.
[*]Add any new fish to the tank? No
[*]What do you feed your fish? Pro-Gold, Peas
[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as
"grains of salt",
bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Black smudges on face and a couple on body, I believe her eyes are popping. Clamped fin at times
[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating,ect..? Yes Bottom sitting, not active. Miranda nudges her to get her to move but she doesn't really want to. Still eating though!

I went to the beach for 2 days. It corresponded with the 2 days off of meds, so before I left I gave them a 100% water change. Samantha has very black fins and tail, and has since I bought her. They are getting darker so I took it as a good sign that she is now in better water and healing. When I came back from the beach she had the black marks on her face, where before she did not have any. While I was gone my mom said she was laying around a lot. The day after I got home I started noticing that her eyes MAY be protruding but it's hard to tell on her because she always has kinda poppy eyes, plus I am a bit paranoid after all the fish problems. I kept a close eye on her yesterday and she was still very unactive. Not completely unactive. She will swim occasionally, and she is still eating. But the rest of the time she lays in the corner. I cannot tell if I am imagining the pop-eye, or not SO I will post a photo of her when I got her and a photo now. I have metro-meds. My instinct is to give them to her, but I also know that once I do I must give them for 14 days, so I am going to wait until a mod gives me the go ahead. That way if the recommendation is different I won't have messed things up. If I don't hear back from anyone by the end of the day I am probably going to give her the metro-meds though because I don't want to risk waiting until she no longer wants to eat. While waiting I am going to do a 100% water change, and add back in only the salt and prime. That way there will be no other meds in the water. Then you guys can let me know whether to continue with prazi and dimilin. Or just the prazi or WHATEVER. Thanks. I can't believe another of my fishies is sick. Poor babies!

NOW:


BEFORE:


I will also try to get some clearer pics I just want to get this posted asap!

Okay. Now the extra info.

KH=232.7
GH=322.2

Tap Water:
PH= Changes. Today it's 7.4
KH=196.9
GH=286.4

Temperature in tank: 77-78 No heater, just hot weather

I DO have a spare 5 gallon tank. It is not cycled. However, like if say Samantha needs Epsoms salt and Miranda should stay in the tank with regular salt, I could move Samantha in there. SO for now I will do what I said and change out the water in the 10 gallon and add back in only Prime and 0.3% salt. I will also get the 5 gallon prepared with temp matched water and only Prime just in case.

Here's a few more pictures. And a video:





Video: Right after the video was taken she did swim for about a minute. She is MOSTLY doing this, but is still occasionally moving. She has gotten considerably less active between last night and today.

Hmmmm. I know I said I would wait until later but I am really starting to think I should give her the Metro Meds. Her breathing is looking a bit heavy and she is starting to look a bit skinny. As strange as it sounds considering I just said she looks skinny, I also think I may be seeing slight pineconing. I don't know at this point. Sometimes I feel like a fish hypochondriac. Then again, so far I've been correct. There really WAS something wrong with Sheldon, Angel And Miranda. And taking action with Angel and Miranda was the correct thing and helped them. She's behaving way to close to the way Sheldon did before he passed and that day I remember that within hours he went from being able to eat, to not wanting to touch food. I think I am going to have to go with my gut on this one and give Samantha the Metro Meds and hope that it was the right call. Trinket, you told me recently I need to trust myself more so I think that's what I am going to have to do. It could still be hours until someone gets on and that just may be too late. My stomach hurts because I am stressed wondering what to do. She's gotten worse in the last few hours. I won't give any to Miranda, just Samantha for now.

I just put Samantha in a bucket and fed her some Metro Meds. She's eating them. Thank goodness. I have already completed the 100% water change in the 10 gallon. I added the 0.3 % salt and Prime. I am going to set up the 5 gallon with 0.2% salt instead of 0.3%. That way I will already have started the process of decreasing the salt in case I need to start with the Epsom. That shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. I already have the water sitting out and temp matched. I've got three mesh bags filled with that Fluval Bio-Max in the 10 gallon along with two cartridges for the Penguin 200. I am going to take one of the bags and add it to the filter in the 5 gallon. Maybe it will be enough to get a cycle going in there. Wish me luck guys, I hope I am doing the right thing.........

Oh gosh, another sick fish! It really does twist your stomach into knots, doesn't it?

I know what you're talking about with not wanting to overreact, but knowing from first-hand experience how fast things can go south. If you feel that you're seeing evidence of pineconing and/or pop-eye, then Metromeds would be the right medication. I think that you are right to go with your gut.

It is my guess that the black tips on Samantha's fins have been healing ammonia burns from the beginning. It is possible that she is a calico, but the rest of her coloration doesn't look like other calico fish that I've seen. The fact that she has ammonia-burned fins would suggest that she's been exposed to some unhealthy conditions in the past, which may have had a lasting impact on her gill function. This sets her up to have a more difficult time with any other less than perfect or stressful conditions for weeks or months as she heals.

During Pepper's illness Trinket helped me to understand how stressful certain things can be to fish, even things that we don't really think about like bright lights, extra noise, moving from a quarantine tank to a regular tank and back again, etc. If your spare tank is not cycled, I would err on the side of keeping her in the regular tank. She definitely doesn't need to be exposed to the additional stress of an uncycled tank unless it is absolutely necessary. When I put epsom salts in my big tank to treat Pepper my other fish didn't seem to mind it at all.

I hope everything turns out okay for Samantha. Fins crossed for you both.

Thank you Kristen. I know it's a sad time for you with Pepper. Again, I am so sorry...



I do remember seeing that in your thread. Part of the reason I wanted to keep Samantha in a seperate tank was so that I could more easily keep Miranda from getting the Metro Meds and more easily make sure that Samantha is ONLY eating the metro meds. They are both due to be at 0.3% for another week or two as well, and I am pretty sure I was told not to use Epsom and regular salt at the same time.

That being said, your point about not stressing the fish out makes COMPLETE sense. I am very unsure where to keep her because of that very reason. I remember that you used a breeding net to keep the fish seperate in the same tank. That may be a good idea. It would make things easier to keep their food seperate, and give Samantha a place to rest, meanwhile keeping her in the tank she is used to, with Miranda, who honestly seems to comfort her. Samantha ate lots of pellets of Metro Meds. I hope I didn't over do it. I dropped like 12 of them in her bucket, and she just kept going. That's a good thing though. What is a good amount to feed when feeding a medicated food? I question whether the pineconing is my over active mind, but I do think her eyes are popped out for sure. I took an overhead picture of her in the bucket. I will post it. Maybe you guys can just tell me I am crazy : )

For the meantime I will place her back in the tank with Miranda. She has finished eating. I will still however prepare the 5 gallon tank with temp matched dechlorinated water should Trinket or one of the other mods come on and suggest I use that tank. I will go ahead and place a baggie of biomax in just to see what happens with the cycle. The good news is that her tank is in a back bedroom with little to no sound or disruptions. The room is very dark so I should be able to keep her nice and peaceful. I will also either use a piece of glass to divide the tank during feeding times, or get one of those breeding nets.



It really does!!! I'm literally in pain. It's not even just for my own fish. When I see other members with problems I feel it for them as well. When you wrote that Pepper didn't make it, I honestly teared up. You get to know people on here, and even their fish! It's just a sad thing.



I agree. I do not think it's her coloring. Based on the locations of the black and the ways it is changing. I actually noticed that there was one spot on her that I believe you can see in the second picture that is gone in the first picture! I suppose that means it's healing, just maybe different spots are healing at different times. I sure hope so.

You're doing well to keep everything under control, but this one is outta my league. I'm so sorry she's sick dear... just remember to do the full course of the anti-bac food and like Kristen said, try to reduce stress as much as possible.

The breeding net worked really well for me. It enabled me to feed the medicated food to Pepper only and to keep track of whether or not she was pooping. It also provided a soft surface for her since she was laying on her side in the end. The only problem with it was if she didn't eat all her food right away all the other fish would come up from underneath and start bumping her around as they tried to get at the food in the net. So I had to be careful not to feed her more than she would eat right away.

I am not sure about how many pellets of MM to feed. I am not sure if you can overdose or not. I guess I would just feed her about the same quantity as you normally would. But I can understand you wanting to get as much medication into her now before she stops eating if she gets worse. Hopefully Trinket or Pixie can advise you soon.

Well I remember seeing a net the other day at Wal mart. I almost bought it because of seeing you use it. But didn't. Shane is off to get one right now. Can't wait to see what he brings home. : ) I told him "CALL ME!". lol He was going out to get food anyway. Between him and his sister maybe they will bring home the right thing. Taylor is going with them. She's only 8 but smart. She'll probably get mommy the right thing LOL



EXACTLY. I want to make sure she gets enough, but I don't wanna over do it either. ALL of it's gone though. I am glad she ate it. She liked it. I just fed Miranda. Her food is almost gone. I'll give her a few more minutes then put Samantha back in.

Here are the pictures. One is of both of them earlier in the bucket when I did the 100% water change. The other is Samantha only about 10 minutes ago.

Such a pretty fish and Im so sorry she is out of sorts Sue. She does look sick with her clamped fins in that pic, although I cant see any pop-eye. You were right to start on the MMs if you notice any skinniness at all + the bottom sitting behavior + possible slight pineconing. Didn't Sheldon look very skinny later on too, I hope she hasn't got anything similar. Meanwhile, keep all stressors low and get the daily recommended dose of MMs into her. She is about 2 and a half inches yes? Thats about the size the pellet feeding recommendations are usually aimed at.
Do you have epsom salt?

Trinket - I am glad you didn't notice popeye. It's hard with her. She really does have naturally POPPED eyes. She always has a slight white ring around her eyes. It just looks worse lately. The pineconing is also soo hard to tell. In some of the pics I think I see it, in some of the pics it looks normal. What do you think about the pics I posted from above?

Either way she ate the metromeds and call me crazy (and of couse knock on wood). She is ALREADY swimming around. I've heard talk of the metromeds being miracle food. But this quickly? I am not lying, I see a great change in her behavior in the last hour.

She is reminding me EXACTLY of SHELDON! This is what makes me nervous. He started out bottom sitting, then got a bit clamped, then VERY clamped. Then got a little skinny, then VERY skinny, then his eyes were protruding badly. Because I remember how quickly he got worse, this is why I wanted to start Samantha on the MetroMeds as soon as possible. Within hours he went from eating to not wanting to touch the food.

Yes I have the epsom, but like I said she is currently in 0.3% salt. When we talked last I'm think we agreed on a month QT at 0.3% salt the whole time, prazi (3 days on, 2 days off) for the duration of the month. They've also been getting the dimilin. Which I am confused about still..

QUESTIONS:

1) We went back and forth on whether it should be 2 weeks dimilin or 4 weeks dimilin. Which is it? So far I've been doing a 50% water change daily and giving them a dose dimilin each night for 3 days, then a 100% change and leaving them with 2 days off. Same with Prazi.

2) Right now they are on day 19 of both the dimilin and the prazi. Can those medications be given with MetroMeds?

3) Salt is at 0.3% Should I cut back on the regular salt gradually and once it's gone add epsom or just leave things as they are for tonight?

4) Yes she is about 2 1/2 inches without tail. How much is the daily recommended dosage? The bottle does not say.

Whew. OH she just chased Miranda! That's good! For the last few days Miranda has been doing all the chasing and playing.

Just a little input-- my panda oranda, Reba, has whiteish rings around her eyes that I was worried might have been popeye, but turned out to be nothing. Here's my thread, maybe it will be useful?

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...c=70145&hl=

I dont know about the dosage for MMs perhaps someone else does. Its safe to use with prazi, salt and dimilin.
In answer to your other Qs:

1. No anchor worms have been present for some time. I think you had a very minor infestation and should quit the dimilin now.

2. Prazi you should stay the full month course.

3. Salt at 0.3% for one month is way long Sue. 2 weeks is plenty and 3 weeks is absolutely tops for salting.

I should change out the reg salt if thats been 2 weeks and add epsom.

Joy thanks for that link. I remember reading that one, but it's funny how once a thread pertains to your situation you can go back and reread and gather all sorts of info that you missed the first time. Sounds VERY much like Samantha. She really did always have those. But like Jack said, I feel that the ring has gotten larger to some degree.. Her bottom sitting and skinniness still just scares me. But I do have Maracyn 2 on hand also! And like I said I do have the epsom, just waiting for a nice Trinket or Pixie or whoever response on those questions LOL. Since I already began the MetroMeds I will follow through on that 14 day course. I am glad she is already improving. It's insane. This is the most she has swam in days. I am just so happy and impressed. These metromeds are awesome!...

Trinket thanks!!! Good I was thinking that I might be able to quit with the dimilin. That makes things so much easier.

Wow. I wonder how I got so confused about the salt!!! Glad I asked. Ya know, maybe I was confusing the fact that fish should remain in QT for a month with being SALTED for a month!!!! Either way, thank you for clearing that up for me. That also makes this 10 times easier. Since I just did the change today I will leave it for tonight then in the morning start decreasing the salt... Good new is, it's only day 19 so it hasn't quite been a full 3 weeks yet so I haven't totally overdone it.. Whew.... Sometimes I think I am asking stupid questions, then I am glad I asked them!!!!

Trinket your package is ready to be mailed I just have to get my butt to the post office : ) And off topic, but I saw you mention in another thread that you were having a rough couple of days...What's the matter?

Thanks for asking sweetie. As a matter of fact I am trying to leave a marriage of 16 years. I am getting divorced, there is so much to get organised and I have so many things to think about I am a bit distracted here these days. Hopefully things will ease up when I find a place of our own to live, Ill take my 2 kids.

By the way did you know salt can cause blackening of fins? In fact any medication in prolonged use can. I once used salt at 0.3% for 3 weeks and a white fish turned completely grey black and I know it wasnt amm burn as I was checking params daily. Some fish are much more sensiyive and tends to be calicos and whites IME.

Hang in there. I have to go now but will check on you again soon

Best wishes to both Samantha and to Imogen.

First about the fish. That's very interesting about the medications! Maybe now that the Dimilin has stopped, and that the salt can be lowered the spots will also go away. I had to jump the gun on this one but she is just doing so much better. I went down to check on her and she was so much more like herself. Trying to get attention, and the two of them were doing the thing they normally do where one will nudge the other and get underneath. Then the other will turn around and do it also. I just love these two. I am 100% keeping them in thr 29 gallon by themselves at this point. They just are perfect together and they don't need another fish possibly ruining their perfect little relationship. I know it's too early to tell if Samantha will recover but this signs look good.

Aww Imogen you must be going through so much right now. That's got to be causing so much stress for you. My mom and dad are going through a seperation and I know how difficult it can be. I hope everything turns out for you, and hang in there. If you ever need to just talk about life, not fish, please know I am there for you. (And I'm guessing about 10000 other people on this board would agree). Good luck with everything, and good luck finding a place for you and your family : )

Well I just came in to check on Samantha and she is still swimming well. Thank goodness.

I searched for a post that would say how much food to give her. I found this one by koko for someone with a dropsy fish.



So I suppose I overdid it a little yesterday but doesn't sound like anything that would be a problem.

They did not have a breeding net at the store. And at this point she is actually active enough that I think that would be annoying to her. However, I am not sure how I want to go about feeding the Metromeds to JUST Samantha. I tried moving Miranda to a bucket, and feeding Samantha in the tank. But she just ignored the food. I gave it a while with NOTHING. So then I moved Samantha to the bucket and Miranda back in the tank. That seems to work better. She is in a smaller area and the bucket is white and the food is dark. She notices it more and ate some. She's eating SLOWLY today. She's not gobbling them down like yesterday but she IS eating them. I'm seeing poo. I just wonder if this is going to stress her out too much being moved to the bucket to be fed... Any suggestions?

Sue, don't have any advise but just wanted to let you know I'm praying all will be well with Samantha.
Kathy

I think different fish have different degrees of tolerance for being handled and being moved. Certainly you don't want to cause her any unnecessary stress, but you also need her to eat. Will you have a chance to get out today and look at another store for the breeder net? With that you could just scoop her into it when it is time for her to eat and then gently dump her out when she is done. You wouldn't have to touch her or take her out of the water. I think that might be the best option.

Thanks Kathy : ) I can always count on you as a great support system : )

Good idea Kristen. It's amazing how things just DON'T cross my mind. I'll go out today to a store and see what I can find. Either a breeding net or maybe even a tank divider. It's early so I am thinking about going to that one store I found that is REALLY good. It's a bit further but worth it. I was even thinking about looking for that stuff that was the equivelent of Bio-Spira. I forget who said it (might have been you even) on another thread. One and only bacteria? Sounds like something that would be useful considering I need to get my new tank up and running. I am hoping they might have it, as they carry a lot of things that I haven't seen in most stores, like prazi & dimilin.

I am also seriously considering using PP to disinfect my 29 gallon and start fresh. It just seems like I've been having sooo many issues in there. There were so many sick fish in that tank. What I would do just in case, is remove the filter media and place it in a bucket or rubbermaid and continue giving it ammonia. That way if something happened weird, and I just NEEDED that cycle, I wouldn't be completely screwed. It just seems like every fish that has gone into that tank has gotten sick and I wonder if there is just something nasty lurking in the water that I can't detect. I was already planning on using the PP to disinfect the new tank. (By the way I've learned that most likely it is a 38 gallon).

Another reason I want to nuke it and start over is because after learning on here, I see so many mistakes that I did wrong in the first few months with that tank. For example, I hardly EVER used the gravel syphon. I was just changing water with jugs, therefore all the gunk sat rotting away. Who knows what was growing down there. When I stirred it up finally it was a nasty mess. That scares me. The tank was cleary exposed to MANY sick fish (or caused many sick fish!) with many diseases. Like Ich, Flukes, Anchor Worm, and whatever Sheldon and Sumpin Else had. I know many things can die off without a host, but I am assuming that bad bacteria doesn't need a host to survive, just a food source? Am I right? On one hand, it's important to preserve a cycle. On the other hand, I would feel good knowing the fish had nice freash disease free tanks to move into. I believe they are all good in their QT tanks for the time being. The 10 gallon with the Orandas is cycled. Yes, 10 is small for 2 fish. But as a temporary thing I could easily maintain the tank with extra water changes. I'm used to daily changes right now, so even every OTHER day would feel like a break! : ) And it's not that they are such large fish that they seem cramped. And either way, they are going into the 38 gallon so it doesn't really MATTER what I do to the 29. It's not affecting the orandas. Then with Angel she is in a 10 by herself... The cycle is not dependable, but I AM! And I make sure to check her water every day. So I don't know what to do. Wow I really need counseling for help with decision making LMAO

I think nuking that tank is a good idea. Here is Daryl's post about how to do that:
http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=41101

Yes, the bacteria is called One and Only by Dr. Tim's Aquatics. But once you have a cycled filter it is amazing how much easier it is to cycle another tank. Just move over some filter media and you have a big head start. The bacteria only have to multiply once to double the size of your biological filter. Even if it takes an extra week to get the tank up and running, it would be worth the peace of mind that you've killed all the evil nasties in the tank. Most parasites will eventually die out without a host, but bacteria just needs gunk to live off of practically indefinitely.

You just saved me so much trouble!!! I remember that post and was about to go searching for it. That exact one!! I love you : )

Yes I know exactly what you mean about cycling a tank once you have one cycled. I did my 10 gallon in literally 2-3 days. I was sooo surprised... Unfortuantly right now the only material I would be able to use is the exact material that I am trying to clear of the nasties. But if I can nuke everything, once the cycles are going again and the fish are moved I will be able to disinfect the 10 gallons too and have them nice and clear too for new fish. Then I can use media from the newly cleaned cycled tanks to reestablish the cycles in there. Actually, or just wait until the tanks are needed. I mentioned this before but I am also going to keep my spare 5 gallon as a filter media tank. I havbe 2 spare 5 gallons actually. One I bought because it was teal and I thought someday I might want to keep a betta in it in my bedroom which has an ocean theme.. But I don't want more tanks right now so for now I am going to cycle it and keep the extra Whisper Internal Filters in it with extra filter media. I read about toothless doing that and it seems very smart.

An update on Samantha: Swimming well, no more clamping!!!! Much much MUCH more like her old self. I brought the salt down to 0.2% this morning. I am bringing it down to 0.1% right now (6 pm). Then around bedtime (maybe 2ish?) I will do a 100% water change, get out ALL the rest of the salt and add it some epsom. Is that too fast??? I could be wrong (you know how I always make assumptions and sometimes they are right, sometimes not). But I assume that raising salt needs to be done more slowly than lowering salt. Since fish have different salt level tolerances and you want to give them time to adjust. But I would think that since all goldfish are naturally used to salt free water, then going from 0.3% to 0 in about 18 hours would be okay.... Is that true?? If I am wrong, please correct me LOL

Adding salt in 0.1% increments over 36 hours is done primarily to avoid shocking your biological filter. If you have an urgent need to get up to 0.3% salt (like a really bad case of ich) you can do it all at once but have to anticipate that it will probably slightly bump your cycle. Most fish are able to tolerate the switch without a problem (although smaller or sick fish might be more stressed by it). I have brought salt down quickly with large water changes (with no salt in the replacement water) a few times and not had a problem with either my fish or my filter.

BTW, how on earth do you manage going to bed at 2:00 am? I go to bed by 10:00 pm at the latest (although I was up later because I couldn't sleep with my husband out of town)!

Oh and I am so glad to hear that Samantha is better. Do you still think that her eyes look popped? Perhaps you don't need the epsom salts after all?

Samantha seems to be improving, but she tends to be the most active and improved RIGHT after getting the MetroMeds. Perhaps that makes sense?? Human meds wear off soo?? I dunno lol. To me, her eye still seems a little popped. Well, like I said, more so than usual. Right now her fin is clamped again. And she is back in that corner. It's about time for her meds though, so we'll see if that perks her up.

The salt is down to 0.1%. Kristen, what you said about the salt makes sense. In that case I don't see why I shouldn't be able to change out the rest of the water now. I think I am going to follow through with the epsom, just since she seems to be going downhill again.

I just got back from the store.. And OH MY GOD I just realized I didn't get a breeding net. That's what I went for! I wound up with Hermit Crab supplies, and a tank for the crab and decorations and no NET. That's okay the other store near me opens at 9 am. Tonight I would move her anyway during the water change. I will just move her first ALONE, then move Miranda. Then tomorrow I can get the net.

She just swam so she's not fully back to sitting in the corner. My laptop is in the room with her so when I am on here I can watch her.

I also got a bottle of One And Only Nitrifying Bacteria. Now here's the dramatic story. I'm gonna TRY to shorten is as much as I know how, but that's hard for me! Oh please. I'll just give the long version.

Worker talked to me, helped me with a tank. Then here's the conversation:

Me: "Oh I need a bottle of One & Only Bacteria. I called and someone said it was in stock?"
Him: "What do you need THAT for?"
Me: I had a lot of illness in my tank and I think I want to just disinfect it and start fresh
Him: Let me stop you right there. There is no need to do that.
Me: Well, there's just been a lot of sickness in that tank, and I am not sure if I want to yet or not but I am thinking it might be a good idea.
Him: There's no point in doing that. Anything in there is dead.
Me: Well, I think I want to just to be safe
Him: What are you going to use to nuke it?
Me: I was thinking Potassium Permanganate
Him: I wouldn't use that. It's just an oxidizer
Me: ON the message board I go to a lot of people recommend it for use as a disinfectant
Him: No if you don't use enough of it or don't use it for long enough it's useless. Use bleach. But I wouldn't even bother it's a waste of time.
Me: Well I am still not sure if I am going to or not. I am waiting to get more opinions but I might be. I also read bleach was good but it requires a lot more rinsing and the PP can be safer because if there is any remaining in the tank it's harmless unlike bleach.
Him: (Rude condescending smile) Well you can do whatever you like but I wouldn't. If it were me I would just throw some stress zyme in and add the fish
Me: Well I heard good things about One & Only Bacteria so I wanna look it over
Him: You couldn't have heard anything. It's new so there is no information on it yet.
Me: But I heard it's basically identical if not completely identical to Bio-Spira and I've heard good things about that
Him: The guy who invented it left the company and the product was discontinued. What does that tell you about that
Me: Okay well I'm not even sure I want to use it. I would just like to take a look at it.
Him: I know Tim. He's a good guy. But honestly we only carry this product because it's new and in high demand. I saw Tim a few weeks ago at blah blah blah and .. well.. I'll just say that it's not neccessary but I can't make the choice for you. (More condescending smiles)
Me: Well I understand. I've been going back and forth as well
Him: It's not a back and forth kind of thing
Me: Well, okay I'll think about it
Him: Don;t get me wrong. Tim's a smart guy. (Tim this Tim that for a minute like he was soooo coooool cuz he knows TIM) LOL
Me: Okay...Well I'll think about it.
Him: Well I am starting a class here in a few weeks. I will be discussing disease and looking and disease under the microscope. How long has your tank been empty
Me: About a month
Him: Then everything in there is dead anyway, including the bacteria. S
Me: I've been keeping the cycle alive with ammonia
Him: AMMONIA?! WHat Kind of ammonia?!
Me: Clear ammonia
Him' What kind of CLEAR AMMONIA??
Me: Ya know just plain clear ammonia. It doesn't bubble
Him: Clear ammonia will kill your bacteria! How much ammonia are you putting in there!!!!???
Me: I raised it to 4ppm initially, then have been adding 2ppm daily
Him: What are your nitrites?!?!?!
Me: Zero now. The tank is cycled. I put the ammonia in, and the ammonia and nitrites are back to zero right away and the nitrates rise.
Him: That ammonia could be killing your cycle!!!!!!!
Me: Well I understand that it's keeping the cycle. There's a lot of opinions. I just know that I was having a lot of problems with my fish and I found a great message board and have been listening to their advice and have had really good experiences with them so I trust what they are telling me. Thanks for you advice though.
Him; (RUDE STUPID SMILE THAT I AM ABOUT SICK OF SEEING) OKay well do whay you have to do. I studied (fill in with big scientific words I don't know) and that was my major, but you don't have to listen to me.
Me: I don't know what that means (Anyone watch the show Bones? She always says that! lol)
Him: (VERY RUDE CONDESCENDING FACE). Well it's a form of biology. But thats just me. Do whatever you feel like doing but..
Me: I know.. but you wouldn't use it
Him: I can't tell you what do to but I think you are wasting your time.. (More stupid rude smiles. UGH I WANNA SLAP HIM SOOOO BAD)
Me: Umm you gave me a bottle that says saltwater, I needed freshwater
Him: Oh thanks for noticing that..
Me: This didn't need to be refridgerated?
Him: No it can be to make it keep longer but it doesn't have to be.
Me: well I will buy it and ask around a bit more about it...
Him: Okay. Go ahead and listen to your board. Do what you gotta do.
.. Then he walked off and Shane came up and said "are we going? did you get what you came for?" and I said "yes but the guy was telling me not to get it!". I turned and saw the guy right there. haha.. I said "thanks for your advice and help today" and he kinda made a face and said "well..... let me see how it goes"

UGH i hate people like that. There is a way you can give an advice and opinions without being rude. He clearly thought I was stupid and was making me feel like "okay honey, sure try it your way but I know". EWWW. First of all, there ARE different opinions. Some DO say bleach, some say PP etc. That doesn't mean everyone else is wrong. And second. I do recall a recent thread discussing the various fields that MANY of the memebers on here are studying! Third. Before I came to Koko's I had dozens of sick fish that did not survive. Now I have three that at some point have all gotten sick, and improved. (Samantha--that means you have to keep getting better too now ya hear?!) Overall I have a mixed experience with this store. They have GREAT variety of products, and a good choice of fish. But worker wise there are some that are excellent and some that act like know it alls. I've seen many opinions on here, and that's a good thing! I just think there is a certain way to phrase things that makes it feel like a conversation and not an attack.

ANYWAY, I have to end this for now. It's way too long. I still have to do the final water change for today.

Oh and Kristen. (OFF TOPIC! Who me? I never do that!))I go to bed at 2am or later, and it's not a good thing. I CAN'T sleep. I have very strange sleep issues. My body does NOT adjust to sleeping at night. I can't explain it. If I try to sleep "normal" I just don't sleep. I'm up on and off at very weird times. If I were to go to bed at 4am and not have to wake up for any reason, like with Taylor, I would sleep til about 12 noon without interuption and get a "normal" about of sleep. If I try to go to bed at 10pm and wake up at 6am. I just DON'T sleep. I will drift around 4am after staying up all night. It's been that way since I can remember. Even in school. LUCKILY Shane works from home, so between the two of us, someone is always around for Taylor at all times. And my mom lives with us, and now Tanya. So it makes things easier. So a lot of days I go to bed at 4am. (Thats actually forced. My body NATURALLY gets tired around 6 am! LOL) and then sleep a few hours. Get up, do some stuff, then end up napping.. That's why it probably appears that I am on here at ALL hours of the day. I sorta am!!! I've tried pills and adjusting schedules and tricking my "internal clock" and read books. It just doesn't happen. I actually don't mind it, it's just not convenient with the way the world works. lol For me summer is actually a BAD thing. During the school year I tend to just stay up UNTIL my daughter goes to school, get her ready and everything, then sleep WHILE she's at school. And get everything I need done that closes between 4pm and like 9pm. Plus these days alot of stores are open all night.

Wow, that guy at the LFS sounds like a real dork. I have pretty much had exactly that same conversation with multiple LFS employees. Maybe we should just use Joy's strategy and tell them to bug off! Why is it that they are always so resistant to any information from the INTERNET? It makes you wonder if they really care all that much about fish if they've never looked around at all the information that's available. Some of it is junk, but there are also gems like this site where you can benefit from decades worth of fish keeping experience.

I hope than Samantha continues to get better!

I was gonna say earlier "We all know what Joy would do" LOL. I have to try to remain somewhat cool about it, cause if I let myself start, I would get SOO mad and not calm down. You guys would be watching the news later and see "Woman kills employee in Pennsylvania fish store" and there'd be me in my mug shot and he'd be impaled with a sharp ornament lol

Tanya (Shane's sister in case I haven't mentioned her enough times already) said two funny things. First, while he was talking to me she said to Shane "Oh would you go tell him to shut it and get on koko's so he can learn a little something?!" and then in the car home she said "well if he's SOOO great and sooo smart, then why is he working selling tanks at a fish store?!"... I laughed so hard.

Samantha has my stomach in knots again. At first she didn't want to eat. At ALL. She was spitting out the pellets (even though I did let them soak first). It's taken this whole hour, but she finally started eating about 10 minutes ago, and in that 10 minutes got in 9 pellets. I was just about to write a freak out post saying "SHE WON'T EAT". One last pellet, then I can move Miranda in with her, then do the 100% water change. I'll go ahead and add the epsom to be safe. That's it. (Well, Prime) It's time for a few days off of Prazi anyway so that's good. She should just be able to relax for the next couple days with no water changes. I still have the Maracyn 2 on hand but hopefully she keeps eating the MM's and doesn't need it. I also had a thought which is SO obvious and simple yet hadn't thought of til now. Ummm... if they NEEDED to be seperated, I could put MIRANDA in the 5 gallon tank and leave Samantha where she is.. Can we all say DUH!!! (No wonder the guy treated me like a moron!!! lol)

Last pellet is gone.. Wooo hoooo... That's my girl.. Whew.

I'm off to bed shortly, and wanted to give an update and ask a few questions.

Samantha is up and down. The last few hours have been down. Back to being very lethargic. She appears to have trouble breathing, or is breathing deep (labored breathing??) She's back to her corner with Miranda nudging her to move.

She did eat all 10 MM pellets, I have not seen any poo yet. The last time I did see poo, it was normal. Looked like the MetroMeds.

The aquarium salt has been removed 100% and a 1/4 teaspoon of Epsom was added about 30 minutes ago. As for the Pop Eye, I can only say this. Miranda and Samantha have very similar features for the most part. And one was their eyes. Almost identical. They both looked popped to some degree always, but to the SAME level. Right now Samanthas look more popped than Mirandas. Her clamping has gone down, but as we speak she is doing it. Again she IS moving, it's not often. Miranda swims back and forth past her, seems to try to get her to play. I will leave them alone now with the light off overnight. My questions are:

1) at what point if I do not see any change do I want to remove Miranda to a different tank that way I can treat Samantha with Maracyn Two

2) I believe Maracyn Two is the one that is light sensitive. Is that correct?

3) If Miranda shows any signs at all of starting to lay around like Samantha is, do I want to start her on the same food, or shall I wait?

I ask these questions in advance because sometimes when you are waiting it can be hours before someone signs on. I'd rather ask them now, and have an answer before I need it. Thanks.


***Edit**** I forgot to mention something. I checked my fish log. While the fish were on day 19 of prazi and dimilin, they were just about on track when it came to the salt. On June 18th I added salt for the first time. I increased it quite slowly. 0.05% at a time over a 6 days. The salt reached 0.3% on June 24th. That would mean that July 7th (yesterday, still today for me sorta) was the 14th day at 0.3% salt. Perfect. So basically I decreased it one day early but with those extra 6 days with increasing salt, that should be just fine. Same goes for Angel. Her schedule is the same, I am just taking her salt down a bit slower.

I'm super worried about my fish who is acting strangely (posted under swim bladder issues) and I just want to say I know how you feel. It is crazy going through this. My husband keeps teasing me for being so worried, but these goldies are living beings entrusted in our care the same way a dog or cat is. I just want to do right be them.

I'm glad Samantha is doing better:)

Trinket, I haven't spoken to you yet but I just want you to know my thoughts are with you.

Thanks Amy!




Yes I think there comes a point when we have to decide if no-ones around and go ahead with a gut feeling. You have learnt so fast and seem to know a lot now and I think you can trust yourself to know when the point comes "Uh-oh, this looks very familair" to start the MMs for Miranda.

Maracyn 2 is light sensitive that is correct and it is not as effective in high pH, over 7.6- what is yours now? I personally believe MMs and epsom is enough usually.
MMs already has 3 antibiotics in you see. And sometimes weak fish are just pushed over by too many meds. But its always the owners call.

Hi Amy, thanks! : ) I just wrote something in your own thread and am going to add something back in there so you will find it easier

Trinket thanks again.. It's hard for me to "trust my gut" but the last few days I've been trying to go with my instincts LOL

My PH is high. It's pretty steady around 8.2, and yes I do remember you and various others saying that meds can be doubly lethal at high PH. Thanks for reminding me. I understand your point about not wanting to over do it on the meds. So far you have always given me excellent advice when it comes to medication. You've always told me when meds are a good idea, and when there are alternate methods, and so far your advice has always been spot on. I trust your judgement and will try just the MetroMeds/Epsom combination for now.

Today Sam still seems perkier.. I believe the Epsom helped TREMENDOUSLY... Within a few hours I noticed her eyes look normal. I questioned whether I was seeing the pop eye. Now that I see her looking more like her old self I am 100% sure her eyes were popped. It has been SUCH a difference... They improved even more overnight..

She likes the MetroMeds to soak for at least a half hour or so... if not an hour. She will try one or two, and hold it in her mouth for a WHILE, then spit it out. Then lay around and scare me into thinking she is not going to eat. Then all of a sudden she gobbles. She's had 10 pellets two times a day since I started.. I am hoping that if the pop eye was a sign of dropsy, then between the MM's and the Epsom it will ward it off. I do believe there was slight pineconing before I began the treatment. As with the pop eye, it took her returning to NORMAL to be able to know for sure that there was a problem.

Miranda is normal so far. If I see ANYTHING I will give her the MetroMeds too. She is still in the same tank as Samantha so she is getting the Epsom as well, so that in itself may be enough to keep anything from developing with her.

I am scared to death that things will get worse. But I am hoping that my crazy close inspections of my fish has paid off again and I caught everything early enough. I've lost enough fish this year.. Samantha, Miranda and Angel just need to stick around for a while, and that's the end of it! LOL Like 25 years how about?!

I went out today to look for a breeding net and instead ended up with a tank divider. I just placed in it a little while ago. I divided the tank in half, and gave Samantha the side where she has been laying. I pushed the stones up against it, to help keep the bottom in place, and also give both sides a "feeding area" of just clear tank bottom so I can monitor how much food is being eaten. Plus they can still see each other. Right now they are right up against the divider with their faces near each other. I can't believe how close these two are. The divider is a mesh like material, with teeny holes big enough for the air to flow through, but not big enough for a pellet of food to flow through. The filter and bubble wall are on Samantha's side right now, but I am going to add an extra air stone to Miranda's side. I considered just placing the divider in the tank during feedings, but I think it's better to leave it this way. When I first added it, it freaked them out not being able to get near each other.Now they are calming down so I would rather just leave it be and not have to stress them two times a day while Samantha gets her meds. Using this I can also continue their final days of the Prazi in just one tank.

I'm glad Samantha seems perkier and more normal. I kind of feel like we are giong through the same thing. I hope my results end up being as positive. Having a good dest of eyes that notice changes sure makes a difference in catching things early.

Amy- I know what you mean.. Every time I sign on I check your thread right away because I am wondering how things are going for you!!!!

Today I found the best sign so far.. Lately when Samantha swims, it's after I turn the light on in the room, or make some noise to get her going. Today I came in and found both girls swimming their little hearts out WITHOUT neededing anything to start them. I am just so happy..

As I've said before when I bought them they were almost identical in size and features. Except Samatha has a much smaller wen. Since then Miranda has had TONS of wen growth. (Explaining the pimples i saw weeks ago). I think she is going to be one of those fish with the big chubby cheeks! lol Miranda has also grown alot in size.. She's getting bigger all the time. I am hoping once everything is sorted out with Samantha she will do the same.

Here's a pic of them in their tank. It's all weird looking right now because I have the rocks pushed up against the divider and no decorations in. And here's a video of them swimming..

They are both so cute! And Samantha seems pretty chipper today. Hopefully she is over the hump and will continue to improve.
Kathy

They are both such pretty fish! I hope she continues to improve. Fingers crossed for you

I'm learning that lots of love, some instict, and a little bit of luck are needed in keeping goldfish.

Thanks Kathy & Amy! : ) Amy- fingers crossed for you as well!!!

Today I am seeing more improvements in Samantha.... She is on Day 5 of the MetroMeds. Once again, she was swimming when not being watched. Her eyes are back to normal.. The more they improve the more I realize how popped they were... Scary.

She is putting on weight!!!!! Her belly is getting round, in a GOOD way. Like Miranda's. From above now you can see that she is not nearly so skinny. Her black marks are slowly fading as well. They are almost completely gone from her face.

They are not fans of the divider, simply because they want to be near each other.. Even though before they slept in the corner or side, now they each lay as close to the divider as possible so that their bodies are together. I am a fan of it though, because it is making feeding times sooo much easier..

All good news! I'm so glad she is getting better:)

Hurray!! So very glad to hear she is improving more every day.
kATHY

Miranda is now starting to act sluggish... The last few days she's been laying around more and more. Her fins are NOT clamped, but neither were Samatha's at first. Basically Samantha layed more and more for about 3-4 days then on the last day her fins clamped, then I saw the popeye start. They are both still in a tank with 1/4 teaspoon of Epsom. Miranda has been eating MetroMeds so far for 8 days. She is completely back to normal (But yes I will still treat her for at least 14 days total). Miranda is NOT completely bottom sitting, but she is also doing what Samantha did at first and needing something to get her attention to move, while now Sam is back to swimming happily most of the time. Part of me doesn't want to wait until it's too late, but part of me doesn't want to jump the gun if not needed. What do you guys think? MetroMeds for Miranda?? Wait another day?

I would vote "yes", Metromeds for Miranda.

I think I would go ahead and get her started if it was me.
Kathy

Well apparently Miranda is trying to tell me she does NOT want MetroMeds just yet. After Kristin & Kathy said yes I thought "well that's good enough for me" since I trust both of you guys input. I looked at her and she was swimming. So I watched her, kept swimming. Watched her, kept swimming.. Hours later, still swimming. This morning, resting, but as soon as I walked into the room, swimming. Maybe she was able to fight off whatever was trying to get to her on her own. I will keep a very close eye of course. But for now I held off on the meds.

Second I made a mistake. I don't think it's a BIG one but let me know. For Samantha's second feeding yesterday I gave her Medi-Gold instead of MetroMeds! I guess I got so used to the MetroMeds being at the front of the drawer that I grabbed the first container I saw and fed them. Then I looked when I was returning them and saw "Medi-Gold". I've read so much about 14 days of JUST the one type of food, and you can't start a medication without finishing it. I am going to finish out with the MetroMeds. Will that one dose of medi-gold have changed anything?

It's probably okay just one pellet but be very careful to label the packs clearly from now on..the combination of meds in both those foods is not compatible at all.
I'm glad she is swimming around and coping for now. Fins crossed.

I hope she is okay. They are labeled clearly and everything. It was just a dumb mix up, no excuses. I believe what happened is this. The other day Taylor was helping me with things. She's always looking for things she can do to help. She asked for something to do and I said "sure can you put these back in the drawer for mom?". She put them in the left drawer and I keep them in the right. The MediGold is back further in the drawer because I am not using it. I grabbed the close one I guess assuming it was the Metro's, but since they weren't in the drawer at all, it was the Medi. I am so upset!

And it was not just one pellet! She got a full meal of Medi-Gold. But I didn't mix MetroMeds with it at the same feeding. It was Metromeds in the morning, Medi-Gold accidentally in the evening, and now MetroMeds in the morning. Now that you say that I am even more worried. I would hate to lose her over some stupid mistake.. Especially since she is recovering so well. I'm so mad at myself right now. Again, the best thing I can do is learn from my mistake. At this point I believe what I will do when I am feeding medicated food is make up a few daily baggies at a time. And keep them in the upstairs fridge away from the rest of the medicated food. It's frustrating to have goofed.

Right now she is still completely herself. I just fed her & Samantha. If I had gotten this first I would have probably waiting until I got home tonight, that way she could have had a longer time between meds.

Oh I forgot one thing. If she were to have an adverse reaction what would be the time frame it would take to know if she was "clear". Is this something that could cause a problem weeks from now, or is it more like a human overdosing, something that would be noticed quickly, within hours or at most days?

No it wouldn't be an overdosing -almost the opposite in fact. It would be more like the antibiotics in the Medigold cancelling out the effectiveness very temporarily of the antibiotics in the MMs. It depends on how far along the MMs are in working to deactivate any remaining bacteria as to whether they caused a bump in progress. But don't worry, one meal of Medigold will be ineffective because all antibiotic foods depend upon a continuum, a course of meals that build up slowly to do their healing work.

So, feeding just one "wrong" meal would just be like missing one meal of MMs. It's okay.

Okay so it sounds like having a whole meal wrong was better than having one pellet of Medi mixed in with Metro...

She is on day 10 of the MetroMeds right now.

That put my mind at ease a bit.. My goldfish ulcer was starting to act up lol

Well dont you go taking the medicated food by mistake for that