So, assuming that all water params are fine and dandy, stable and healthy...doing regular water changes to keep it in check etc etc etc...are Polyfilter pads a good idea? They get rid of all traces of Amm, nitrites and nitrates. I know that once you've put them in, you can't take them out without having to start the cycle pretty much all over again...but if you use them constantly forever, are they better?
And if you used them...would you still have to do water changes if the water looked clear and good all the time and the params stayed the same? Or do you change water for other reasons as well?
Sorry for all the questions, I kind of feel like an idiot...but I'd rather be an idiot and learn!
Full Version: Polyfilter? Good Or Bad?
I am not familiar with the product to which you are referring. But I can tell you that you should steer clear of filter media designed to absorb ammonia. The problem with these products (zeolite, ammo chips, etc.) is that they remove the "food" (ammonia) that the beneficial filter bacteria need to thrive and reproduce. For that reason you never establish a biological filter.
The other problem with them is that when they stop absorbing ammonia they STOP all at once. A few months ago I was quarantining a fish in a tank with zeolite in the filter and the ammonia was zero, zero, zero every time I tested and then all of a sudden BAM! it was 2.0 ppm overnight. This can be very dangerous and because goldfish make more ammonia than other types of fish you might find yourself having to replace this type of filter media very frequently.
The third downside of ammonia-absorbing filters is that generally you can't use them along with salt. Salt will cause them to release all the ammonia they have absorbed to that point. So if you ever need to use salt to treat for ich, for instance, you are stuck.
Even though it can be frustrating initially, I would advise you to stick out the process of establishing a healthy biological filter. It can take weeks and weeks, but it is so low-maintenance and economical once it is done. When I was first starting out I was tempted to try all kinds of bells and whistles in the form of various filter media, medications, etc. In the end I think you're better off keeping things simple and maintaining good water quality through the nitrogen cycle and simple water changes.
The other problem with them is that when they stop absorbing ammonia they STOP all at once. A few months ago I was quarantining a fish in a tank with zeolite in the filter and the ammonia was zero, zero, zero every time I tested and then all of a sudden BAM! it was 2.0 ppm overnight. This can be very dangerous and because goldfish make more ammonia than other types of fish you might find yourself having to replace this type of filter media very frequently.
The third downside of ammonia-absorbing filters is that generally you can't use them along with salt. Salt will cause them to release all the ammonia they have absorbed to that point. So if you ever need to use salt to treat for ich, for instance, you are stuck.
Even though it can be frustrating initially, I would advise you to stick out the process of establishing a healthy biological filter. It can take weeks and weeks, but it is so low-maintenance and economical once it is done. When I was first starting out I was tempted to try all kinds of bells and whistles in the form of various filter media, medications, etc. In the end I think you're better off keeping things simple and maintaining good water quality through the nitrogen cycle and simple water changes.
Okay, thanks. xD
So what's the best media to use, then? Wanting to know, because the media we got given has all been put in now, so when it needs changing (way in the future! And I know to halve pads and things. =]) I won't have anything.
So what's the best media to use, then? Wanting to know, because the media we got given has all been put in now, so when it needs changing (way in the future! And I know to halve pads and things. =]) I won't have anything.
Acupunk,
I have a kind of similar question. I have a fully cycled 29 gallon tank with Topfin 30. The filter media I use is Top Fin® Bio 3 Filter Cartridges which has 2 activated carbon and 1 zeolite chamber and one sponge. What I understand from your earlier post that I should only use the sponge and not the other layer where carbon and zeolite presents. I understand if I treat water with salt or medicine then I have to take out this layer. Is this going to be okay if I suddenly take out this layer and will not spike my ammonia level. I usually change this layer one in a month as suggested in the packet.
I have a kind of similar question. I have a fully cycled 29 gallon tank with Topfin 30. The filter media I use is Top Fin® Bio 3 Filter Cartridges which has 2 activated carbon and 1 zeolite chamber and one sponge. What I understand from your earlier post that I should only use the sponge and not the other layer where carbon and zeolite presents. I understand if I treat water with salt or medicine then I have to take out this layer. Is this going to be okay if I suddenly take out this layer and will not spike my ammonia level. I usually change this layer one in a month as suggested in the packet.
Okay I know about the "Polyfilter pads".
http://www.altavistamall.com/psproducts/AHH30025_small.jpg
Now this one is okay its just a filter floss, there are other ones this company makes to pull out things in your water and unless you have like ammonia, phosphates in your water there is really no point of using them like "Acupunk" said. They can cause problems
If you have fr example"zeolite" in your filter and remove it, it will cause a bump in that area just make sure your testing and doing water changes, if your nitrites go up above the 1ppm mark use aquarium salt to keep it from hurting and burning your fish
I use the "Polyfilter pad" in my tanks and filter floss too
http://www.altavistamall.com/psproducts/AHH30025_small.jpg
Now this one is okay its just a filter floss, there are other ones this company makes to pull out things in your water and unless you have like ammonia, phosphates in your water there is really no point of using them like "Acupunk" said. They can cause problems
If you have fr example"zeolite" in your filter and remove it, it will cause a bump in that area just make sure your testing and doing water changes, if your nitrites go up above the 1ppm mark use aquarium salt to keep it from hurting and burning your fish
I use the "Polyfilter pad" in my tanks and filter floss too
Let's take a step back and look again at the basics here, ok?
Your fish make ammonia (waste). To keep the tank healthy, you want to remove the ammonia. That is a given.
There are multiple ways to remove that ammonia from the tank's water.
1. Change out 100% of the water on a daily basis. This works the best of ANYTHING, but is the most labor intensive and uses a tremendous amount of water.
2. Run a continuous water exchange - running a small trickle of water in and out all the time. When the volume going in is calculated to the amount of waste produced by the fish, the waste is kept to nearly zero. This is not the easiest system to put into place, but, once there is one of the easiest to maintain. It rarely uses much more water than you would use were you doing large water changes once a week.
3. Run the water of the tank/pond through a container of Zeolite (ammo-chips they are commonly called). This chemical binds ammonia in a fashion that renders it non-toxic to the fish. This system works well, but requires VERY careful attention to water parameters. Compare Zeolite to a glass full of water. As you fill it, all is fine. But when it reaches the top of the glass, it spills out - in a large waterfall. There is little to zero time between "safe" and "toxic". Zeolite can bind a finite amount of ammonia and then it STOPS. Your ammonia can build to toxic levels within hours. So VERY careful testing and tracking is required when using Zeolite. Zeolite is not particularly expensive and can be recharged using salt. This produces another pitfall with using Zeolite. When exposed to salt, it drops all the ammonia it has bound in one fell-swoop. Blam. So if it bound 5ppm ammonia over the past 3 days, and you add salt, it will release 5 ppm ammonia into the water within a minute or two - killing your fish. Salt and Zeolite DO NOT MIX - except when you are recharging the Zeolite for reuse - and this is done in a SEPARATE container.
3. Green water.... floating green algae can and will digest and remove ammonia in the water. Green water has the added benefits of size, health and color increases on the fish. Greenwater is not carefree, though, and requires a 80-90% change each and every period - usually a week.
4. Nitrogen Cycle. This is the most commonly used way of controling waste in a modern fish tank. It involves culturing a colony of two types of beneficial bacteria. Tghe first type processes the ammonia into nitrite. The second type processes the nitrite into nitrate. Nitrate is a toxin to the fish - but it requires far more nitrate to be a problem than nitrite or ammonia, so you remove the nitrate with regular water changes. This works the most cheaply and easiset of care for the majority of fish keepers. It does require a bit of work to start the colonies of beneficial bacteria growing in your filter's media, but once grown, they work well. The pitfalls are that many medications will kill or stunt the beneficial bacterial colonies. Too few bacteria and all the ammonia/nitrite will not get processed. Too cold, too hot, too low pH, etc. can retard the work of the beneficial bacteria.
USually, when we talk about "media" in your filter, we are refering to the platform that the beneficial bacteria that make up the nitrogen cycle colonate. Those bacteria will happily fasten to the glass of your tank or on the surface of your substrate or on the plant leaves, but they are happiest and do their best work when they have a constant supply of ammonia/nitrite laden water flowing past them. They need a good source of oxygen, too. By placing the media where the bacteria live in a filter that is constantly bringing ammonia/nitrite past the bacteria along with a good supply of oxygen, the bacteria will work efficiantly and happily removing toxins from your tank's water.
In the ideal filter, there is a "first stage" filteration - a mechanical removal of the large detrius that gets sucked up the intake. The bacteria do not need this. The second stage is where the media for the bacteria should be placed. Unfortunately many of the cheaper designs of HOB filters combine mechanical and biological filteration in one stage - most commonly in a floss. This floss catches the large debris from the water, as well as serves as the main living platform for your beneficial bacteria. That is fine, but it is nearly impossible to rinse clean when it gets clogged up with large waste. If you throw out the floss, you end up throwing out all your beneficial bacteria - and your cycle crashes. That is not good.
I suggest that you have at least 2 layers of media - even in a filter that is designed for only floss, you may wish to have a layer of floss for the water to pass through FIRST, then some ceramic noodles, sinterd glass, bio-balls, or some such "permanant" platform for the BB.Do not EVER throw out the hard media - it will be good for practically forever. Replace the floss as needed when it gets clogged so that the gph of the filter slows. Rinse it at every water change to remove as much waste as possible.
If you are using a nitrogen cycle to clean your fish's water, you MUST do water changes. The end result of the nitrogen cycle is nitrate. This is not good for the fishes to live in. They can tolerate some, but too much causes all kinds of problems. Water changes remove/dilute the nitrates to livable levels.
http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Nitrates.html
http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...?showtopic=7981
Your fish make ammonia (waste). To keep the tank healthy, you want to remove the ammonia. That is a given.
There are multiple ways to remove that ammonia from the tank's water.
1. Change out 100% of the water on a daily basis. This works the best of ANYTHING, but is the most labor intensive and uses a tremendous amount of water.
2. Run a continuous water exchange - running a small trickle of water in and out all the time. When the volume going in is calculated to the amount of waste produced by the fish, the waste is kept to nearly zero. This is not the easiest system to put into place, but, once there is one of the easiest to maintain. It rarely uses much more water than you would use were you doing large water changes once a week.
3. Run the water of the tank/pond through a container of Zeolite (ammo-chips they are commonly called). This chemical binds ammonia in a fashion that renders it non-toxic to the fish. This system works well, but requires VERY careful attention to water parameters. Compare Zeolite to a glass full of water. As you fill it, all is fine. But when it reaches the top of the glass, it spills out - in a large waterfall. There is little to zero time between "safe" and "toxic". Zeolite can bind a finite amount of ammonia and then it STOPS. Your ammonia can build to toxic levels within hours. So VERY careful testing and tracking is required when using Zeolite. Zeolite is not particularly expensive and can be recharged using salt. This produces another pitfall with using Zeolite. When exposed to salt, it drops all the ammonia it has bound in one fell-swoop. Blam. So if it bound 5ppm ammonia over the past 3 days, and you add salt, it will release 5 ppm ammonia into the water within a minute or two - killing your fish. Salt and Zeolite DO NOT MIX - except when you are recharging the Zeolite for reuse - and this is done in a SEPARATE container.
3. Green water.... floating green algae can and will digest and remove ammonia in the water. Green water has the added benefits of size, health and color increases on the fish. Greenwater is not carefree, though, and requires a 80-90% change each and every period - usually a week.
4. Nitrogen Cycle. This is the most commonly used way of controling waste in a modern fish tank. It involves culturing a colony of two types of beneficial bacteria. Tghe first type processes the ammonia into nitrite. The second type processes the nitrite into nitrate. Nitrate is a toxin to the fish - but it requires far more nitrate to be a problem than nitrite or ammonia, so you remove the nitrate with regular water changes. This works the most cheaply and easiset of care for the majority of fish keepers. It does require a bit of work to start the colonies of beneficial bacteria growing in your filter's media, but once grown, they work well. The pitfalls are that many medications will kill or stunt the beneficial bacterial colonies. Too few bacteria and all the ammonia/nitrite will not get processed. Too cold, too hot, too low pH, etc. can retard the work of the beneficial bacteria.
USually, when we talk about "media" in your filter, we are refering to the platform that the beneficial bacteria that make up the nitrogen cycle colonate. Those bacteria will happily fasten to the glass of your tank or on the surface of your substrate or on the plant leaves, but they are happiest and do their best work when they have a constant supply of ammonia/nitrite laden water flowing past them. They need a good source of oxygen, too. By placing the media where the bacteria live in a filter that is constantly bringing ammonia/nitrite past the bacteria along with a good supply of oxygen, the bacteria will work efficiantly and happily removing toxins from your tank's water.
In the ideal filter, there is a "first stage" filteration - a mechanical removal of the large detrius that gets sucked up the intake. The bacteria do not need this. The second stage is where the media for the bacteria should be placed. Unfortunately many of the cheaper designs of HOB filters combine mechanical and biological filteration in one stage - most commonly in a floss. This floss catches the large debris from the water, as well as serves as the main living platform for your beneficial bacteria. That is fine, but it is nearly impossible to rinse clean when it gets clogged up with large waste. If you throw out the floss, you end up throwing out all your beneficial bacteria - and your cycle crashes. That is not good.
I suggest that you have at least 2 layers of media - even in a filter that is designed for only floss, you may wish to have a layer of floss for the water to pass through FIRST, then some ceramic noodles, sinterd glass, bio-balls, or some such "permanant" platform for the BB.Do not EVER throw out the hard media - it will be good for practically forever. Replace the floss as needed when it gets clogged so that the gph of the filter slows. Rinse it at every water change to remove as much waste as possible.
If you are using a nitrogen cycle to clean your fish's water, you MUST do water changes. The end result of the nitrogen cycle is nitrate. This is not good for the fishes to live in. They can tolerate some, but too much causes all kinds of problems. Water changes remove/dilute the nitrates to livable levels.
http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Nitrates.html
http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...?showtopic=7981
great info stated above.
i have 2 topfin 60s running one tank. they are not the greatest filter but they work and do the job. to make life easier on myself and the filter, i no longer use the bio 3 filter refills. (1) they start to get expensive, quick (2) there is no need for the carbon or the zeolite which has been explained (3)if you dont check them but once a month they clog and slow down output of the filter.
i use some filter floss material that you can buy by the bag at most lfs (its double layered blue and white), in its place. continue to use the blue sponge for the good bbs. i took the filter floss and cut it to the size of the black clamshell. i use 2 of these sizes per clamshell. you can fit them by placing them stacked together under a book over night. it will compress the material. put it in the shell and it will swell when it absorbs the water. every 2 weeks i just rinse it in water from a w/c and wedge it back in there. along with using the blue sponge i have thrown in aqua clear bio max inserts for the good bbs. comes in different sizes and is pre bagged. rinse it and toss it in. just more places for the colony to live in
QUOTE(SandyDoss @ Jun 18 2008, 12:19 PM) 
I have a kind of similar question. I have a fully cycled 29 gallon tank with Topfin 30. The filter media I use is Top Fin® Bio 3 Filter Cartridges which has 2 activated carbon and 1 zeolite chamber and one sponge. What I understand from your earlier post that I should only use the sponge and not the other layer where carbon and zeolite presents. I understand if I treat water with salt or medicine then I have to take out this layer. Is this going to be okay if I suddenly take out this layer and will not spike my ammonia level. I usually change this layer one in a month as suggested in the packet.
i have 2 topfin 60s running one tank. they are not the greatest filter but they work and do the job. to make life easier on myself and the filter, i no longer use the bio 3 filter refills. (1) they start to get expensive, quick (2) there is no need for the carbon or the zeolite which has been explained (3)if you dont check them but once a month they clog and slow down output of the filter.
i use some filter floss material that you can buy by the bag at most lfs (its double layered blue and white), in its place. continue to use the blue sponge for the good bbs. i took the filter floss and cut it to the size of the black clamshell. i use 2 of these sizes per clamshell. you can fit them by placing them stacked together under a book over night. it will compress the material. put it in the shell and it will swell when it absorbs the water. every 2 weeks i just rinse it in water from a w/c and wedge it back in there. along with using the blue sponge i have thrown in aqua clear bio max inserts for the good bbs. comes in different sizes and is pre bagged. rinse it and toss it in. just more places for the colony to live in
Very important information's. Next time I will go to any LFS I will buy filter floss and will replace the activated carbon and zeolite layer in my filter. Is there anybody can give me any website link for this filter floss, I would like to see how it looks like before I purchase.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod...amp;pcatid=4231
Blue and white one
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod...amp;pcatid=4235
comes in bags
both are a good deal even at the LFS's,
Blue and white one
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod...amp;pcatid=4235
comes in bags
both are a good deal even at the LFS's,
Thanks, Koko, much appriciated.
No problem I order from there all the time
Thanks for all that, everyone. =]
I thought I'd dig out this thread again, since it's along the same lines...no point making a hundred threads, right?
I've pretty much got my water sorted now...it's still cycling, but I'm on top of water changes (Quick 25% Saturday, Gravel siphon - 20% Sunday and 35% Wednesday (When I can...)) Sundays I clean the ornaments, plants and filter (half the media) and on both days, I use the algae magnet...does that sound ok to you guys? Overkill? Too much water change? Not enough? (24 UK Gallons-2 fish)
So anyway...Wednesday, I got up to find the filter off. I'm like "NOO!! ><#" and I'm upset withthe other people in this house for turning it off...but it is actually plugged in...I changed the fuse, no love...I cleaned it all out and left it off for a day and still nothing.
So I've had to do a 20% water change every day (is that enough?) and I bought a new filter yesterday...which should get here next week.
I don't have a lot of money though, but found a Fluval 4+ at a price I could afford. I searched round the net and found nothing but praise. Does Kokos praise it also? xD Or have I made a mistake?
Next question is about media...I have to replace it ALL. I know...that's going to start me off all over again...but someone threw it all out. ¬_¬ So I have no choice.
I didn't buy the last lot as you know, so I'm looking round at things you guys suggested, ceramic hoops and foam and the like. Does it matter what ceramic hoops or whatever I get? Are there good kinds and bad kinds, or are all makes pretty much the same?
Sorry for more questions. ^^;
I've pretty much got my water sorted now...it's still cycling, but I'm on top of water changes (Quick 25% Saturday, Gravel siphon - 20% Sunday and 35% Wednesday (When I can...)) Sundays I clean the ornaments, plants and filter (half the media) and on both days, I use the algae magnet...does that sound ok to you guys? Overkill? Too much water change? Not enough? (24 UK Gallons-2 fish)
So anyway...Wednesday, I got up to find the filter off. I'm like "NOO!! ><#" and I'm upset withthe other people in this house for turning it off...but it is actually plugged in...I changed the fuse, no love...I cleaned it all out and left it off for a day and still nothing.
So I've had to do a 20% water change every day (is that enough?) and I bought a new filter yesterday...which should get here next week.
I don't have a lot of money though, but found a Fluval 4+ at a price I could afford. I searched round the net and found nothing but praise. Does Kokos praise it also? xD Or have I made a mistake?
Next question is about media...I have to replace it ALL. I know...that's going to start me off all over again...but someone threw it all out. ¬_¬ So I have no choice.
I didn't buy the last lot as you know, so I'm looking round at things you guys suggested, ceramic hoops and foam and the like. Does it matter what ceramic hoops or whatever I get? Are there good kinds and bad kinds, or are all makes pretty much the same?
Sorry for more questions. ^^;
Oh!
And what order do I put media in for best results?
And do I rinse ceramic hoops/pellets etc the same way you do with the sponge etc?
Are there any foods you shouldn't feed fish when the filter's on?
That sounds crazy, but someone once told me that you have to turn the filter off if you're going to feed daphnia or bloodworms or anything like that, because they can break your filter?
And what order do I put media in for best results?
And do I rinse ceramic hoops/pellets etc the same way you do with the sponge etc?
Are there any foods you shouldn't feed fish when the filter's on?
That sounds crazy, but someone once told me that you have to turn the filter off if you're going to feed daphnia or bloodworms or anything like that, because they can break your filter?
I am having a great deal of difficulty reading your posts for they are smaller in font than normal and pink..... could you change them to something easier on older eyes, please? ***she squints myopically at the screen***
I am not familiar with a Fluval 4 - but I looked it up. Is it the internal one that does 250gph? It says it has two foam cartridges that fit in and a "space" for another cartridge.....
In most common assemblies, the foam that goes in this type of filter does double duty as a mechanical and biological filter. At each water change, you should take out the foam and squeeze it out clean in a bucket of used fish water. The beneficial bacteria will not squeeze out - only the mulm or slimey waste that is stuck there will go, leaving the foam clean again. Clean foam will allow more water and oxygen to pass through and allow the beneficial bacteria to do it's work. You do not have to throw away the foam inserts until they literally FALL APART. When you do have to finally replace the foam, you can do just one of them at a time - leaving a few weeks between the replacements. This will preserve your cycle.
As far as water changes - the number of changes, timing between them and amount changed is best guided by what your water tests tell you. You need to change out enough water often enough to keep the water parameters within a good range. That means zero ammonia, zero nitrite and low nitrate. I prefer 10ppm nitrate or less. This may mean you have to change out 80% of the water every 3 days or 25% of the water every 7; days.... so much depends on the fish and your feeding routines.
The only reason you would turn off your filter when feeding certain foods is if the filter is so strong and the fish so weak that the food gets sucked up into the filter before the fish get to eat it. I have never had this problem. I feed brine shrimp and blood worms daily to fry - and have over 15X turnover going on their tanks. They never fail to catch and eat each and every shrimp/worm long before the filter gets them. Feed slowly and carefully and you will see if your fish get all the food. If not, you can turn the filter off for about 3 minutes until the fish are done eating. Just remember to turn it on again!
I am not familiar with a Fluval 4 - but I looked it up. Is it the internal one that does 250gph? It says it has two foam cartridges that fit in and a "space" for another cartridge.....
In most common assemblies, the foam that goes in this type of filter does double duty as a mechanical and biological filter. At each water change, you should take out the foam and squeeze it out clean in a bucket of used fish water. The beneficial bacteria will not squeeze out - only the mulm or slimey waste that is stuck there will go, leaving the foam clean again. Clean foam will allow more water and oxygen to pass through and allow the beneficial bacteria to do it's work. You do not have to throw away the foam inserts until they literally FALL APART. When you do have to finally replace the foam, you can do just one of them at a time - leaving a few weeks between the replacements. This will preserve your cycle.
As far as water changes - the number of changes, timing between them and amount changed is best guided by what your water tests tell you. You need to change out enough water often enough to keep the water parameters within a good range. That means zero ammonia, zero nitrite and low nitrate. I prefer 10ppm nitrate or less. This may mean you have to change out 80% of the water every 3 days or 25% of the water every 7; days.... so much depends on the fish and your feeding routines.
The only reason you would turn off your filter when feeding certain foods is if the filter is so strong and the fish so weak that the food gets sucked up into the filter before the fish get to eat it. I have never had this problem. I feed brine shrimp and blood worms daily to fry - and have over 15X turnover going on their tanks. They never fail to catch and eat each and every shrimp/worm long before the filter gets them. Feed slowly and carefully and you will see if your fish get all the food. If not, you can turn the filter off for about 3 minutes until the fish are done eating. Just remember to turn it on again!
Personally I don't like internal filters, they are a pain and aren't as strong as HOB filters or canisters If you can see if you can find a Hang on the Back filter, much easier to deal with
If you can see if you can find a Hang on the Back filter, much easier to deal with
Thanks both of you. =]
Yeah, that's the filter. ^^;
I wanted an external one, but could only find ones way out of my price range. I figured it was better to have an awful internal than none...changing the water is hard enough to do regularly whe there's a filter running. Kids don't help, really!
Thanks for the info and sorry for the headache!
Yeah, that's the filter. ^^;
I wanted an external one, but could only find ones way out of my price range. I figured it was better to have an awful internal than none...changing the water is hard enough to do regularly whe there's a filter running. Kids don't help, really!
Thanks for the info and sorry for the headache!
Dont worry always ask questions better to ask then not at all
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