So, no big emergency here, but I just wanted to pose a question.

Our Fishie is now 11 years old and counting. Generally he's perfectly happy, eating joyously, and all the rest of it, but he continues to have occassional problems. We adjust his feedings and they are 'manageable', kinda just like living with a cronic, annoying, but not disabling condition. It doesn't seem to effect his 'personality', but its probably harder on me having to watch him closely and adjust his feedings, etc. It also makes going out of town a bit harder, because we're concerned and have to carefully plan out the feedings (although I do like the portion-set feeder we got, with little areas for each feeding, so I can plan out varied meals and portions).

Water quality is fine (very good, even) as he gets regular changes and conditioners, although I admit I don't test as much as I should - I've been very busy at work and tired lately.


The problems are as follows:
- Sometimes after meals he will get very 'bulky' on his side. Much much larger than in proportion to the amount of food he ate. It seems like its some kind of irritation or reaction to the food. If he has the same food a lot if it will start happening much more. If he hasn't had something in a while, it seems less likely to happen. Sometimes its just a little bulky, sometimes it can be quite bulky, to the point of looking distinctly uncomfortable, but it usually doesn't seem to bother him. His poo is generally fine, although it is sometimes stringy. Dunno if this is related or just a byproduct of being an old fish.

- Lately he's also had balance problem when sleeping. A tendency to tip and end up on his side. Previously this had been related to being very floaty and being forced up against the surface like a helium balloon, and then tipping sideways. Lately, however, it seems to be more of just a balance thing. More like a kid riding a bike, and coming to a stop, he has a tendency to tip. He's not being pushed against the top, he just doesn't balance quite right. Not always, but often. A low level of salt was helping this, but it seems not so much anymore.

We tried medigold, but it had side effects on him. It bound him up incredibly. He didn't poo for days and just grew and grew in bulkiness, so we had to stop it.


So my question is:
I'm okay with just continuing to 'manage' his issues, knowing he's doing alright and doesn't really seem bothered by it, but, is there anything else I should do? Could his bulkiness be due to some bacteria or parasite or fungus that maybe I should try some medication for? Since the medicated food was such an issue, I'd be more tempted to try something waterborne, but I dunno. I certainly don't have a distinct diagnosis, just an old fish with some issues. Is there anything else I should be doing, or is managing it for the rest of his (hopefully several) years the way to go?

Have you tried not feeding for 3-4 days then just straight peas for 5 days?

I'm a big wuss, I honestly don't have the heart. Plus, there was one time we skipped a full day, and he was nearly on death's door afterwards. He couldn't swim straight, was mostly just laying on the bottom, and when he tried to swim he'd just go crashing into the glass. It was really weird. I hand-fed him a pea, and he improved. Ever since then I've been afraid of skipping too many meals.

Usually he gets fed in the morning and the evening - evening often made up of a few small feeding (i.e. 6-8 crips at 6, a bit of algae salad at 7). Not a ton either time - say about a pea or so's worth of volumn twice a day (whatever the particular food may be). He's a ~5-6" comet.


Once a week, or when he has particularly bad symptoms, I'll often skip one feeding, so its a full 24 hours between meals. But as I said, I'm scared to death to go too long, cause merely a full 48 hours once put him in a really bad state. On the flip side, we did go out of town for a day or so a couple weeks ago - and we left him for ~40 hours without food. And he was perfectly fine when we returned. But I'm still a big wuss.

What are you normally feeding? I find that Pro Gold is constipating to my ryukin, so I only feed it about every third day, alternating with other brands of pellets, frozen shrimp, gel food, etc. Also, just cutting back on the amount that I feed has helped A LOT with his issues.

Although I don't think that you should feed medicated food unless a moderator thinks it's indicated, Rick Hess told me that it is okay to feed Medigold or Metromeds in the morning and peas in the afternoon for the duration of the treatment to fish who tend to get constipated.

Here is the feeding plan that Rick Hess gave me for my easy to get constipated fish:

Feed just once aday, do not over feed:
Day 1- Pro-Gold
Day 2- Spirulina Flakes
Day 3- Pro-Gold
Day 4- No food
Day 5- Shelled green peas
Day 6- Pro-Gold
Day 7- Spirulina Flakes
Repeat above.

I kind of think that your fishy has got your number as far as making you feel bad about making him fast goes. One fast day (or at least with very light feeing) a week is in his best interest. Can you do it on a day that you are gone most of the time so that you don't feel so guilty?

Our current feeding regimen currently exists of a combination of the following, in no particular pattern:
- peas
- frozen 'omnivore' food
- 'seaweed salad'
- occassional other veggies (he's picky and spits many of them out, won't eat gel food either)
- crisps
- slowly sinking pellets
- occassional flakes

Its interesting how, depending on what you read, the advice is to feed daily, or twice a day, or whatever, but the advice definitely isn't consistent.



But, more importantly, I think you guys are focusing on the wrong thing (I think). You read floaty and assumed its constipation or something - as I did for a long time. I can't see how it is. Because he'll get 6 or 8 crisps, and then he'll have a big bulge in his size that is easily 10-20 times the volume of the crisps he ate. Its gotten be some kind or irritation or disease or internal infection or something, right? Gas doesn't work either, because sometime he'll be very bulky, but not at all floaty - sometimes it'll even make him distincly sinky. I'm not saying he may not have digestive issues too, but I don't see how thats what causing the bulkiness, because there is simply not enough food to bulk him up that much.

does he get this bulky with the veggie salad, peas, frozen food or is it just the crisps, flakes and pellets that he gets big from?
*edit - how long does he stay bulky after he's eaten?

No type of food makes him bulky all the time. But any type of food can make it happen (I've absolute seen it happen with peas, frozen food, etc). I'd say its more common with flakes & crisps, but I haven't tracked it or anything.

Depending how bad it is (can vary from kinda bulky to extremely bulky), he'll stay that way from anywhere from 1-2 hours, to several hours. I've noticed that it slowly gets worse for the first 15-30 minutes of it. 99% of the time he's perfectly fine by the morning (if it was caused by an evening meal) or by the time I get home from work (if it was caused by a morning meal). Although there has been a few occassions where that isn't true.

It kinda looks something like the following, although it tends to occur more near his anal fin and lower down (not mid-torso). It also does not cause pineconing like you see a bit of in the picture and even at its worse, its not *that* bad, although it can get somewhat close:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/DiseasePIX/Goldfish_lump_wwm.JPG

Finally, even when he's at his best, you can see a little bit of it - and if you look from the top you can see he's a bit uneven - but sometimes after feeding the lump can get pretty bad.

I disagree with this advise. Any aquapharmacist or aquaculture doctor will tell you NEVER to add peas to an antibiotic food treatment program for a tiny animal. Especially for the majority of people who have small fish that need as much of the antibiotics as they can get in their system to be any way effective. And only then if accurately diagnosed.MMs esp cause diarrohea at the best of times and absorption and retention of the max amount of the drug is critical for success.


Fred, it might be an idea to add a link to where your fishes problem was discussed before. I am so pleased to hear he is still hanging in there, his particular problem might be some kind of malformation/swelling of the colon. It has not spread. It comes and goes. It seems to be an idiopathic thing that does not seem to be malignant and probably has a lot to do with the many years this fish spent in confined conditions which most definitely will have stunted or misalligned inner organs.

Good idea, Trinket, here's the original thread, for those who have a while to kill:
http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...;hl=constipated

I'd say the problem has gotten a little worse since then, but its still manageable.

Yup, Fishie is still hanging in there - better than that. Most of the time he's enjoying life, playing in the rocks, beggining for food and swimming around. His issues are harder on me than on him, I think... cause I need to worry about his diet and feel bad for him when he looks all bulky. He thanks you very much for all your help over the last 8, 9 months


So, Trinket, I'm gathering your advice is just to continue watching and managing the problem, but not to medicate or anything? I was just asking because I'm about to order a couple things from Goldfish Connection (I was thinking of some Spirulnia Flakes, which are supposed to be good for digestion, and some Buff-it-up for our low KH, which comes highly recommended on here). Before I ordered I just wanted to see if there was anything else I should be ordering, but I guess in your mind we're doing right as is?

Thanks, Trinket for the feedback. Fortunately I am not in a position right now to be feeding medicated food but I will keep this in mind for future reference.

Kristen you are welcome. Just my opinion of course.



I think so yes. Not worse is better is a good maxim for fish. All said and done they are hardy creatures really given the right water conditions. Which he certainly has with you! The shopping list for G.C sounds excellent. Spirulina flakes, buff-it-up and I don't know if you got round to making your lactobacteria gelfood but if not the Jumpstart food that Rick does contains it & it is great for strengthening intestinal allies

Thanks a lot Trinket. I'm hesistant to buy anything from GFConnection that looks like it'd probably be a pellet. In addition to the side effects, Fishie seemed to have real problems chewing the Medigold. They were hard little rock-like pellets, and he'd chew and chew and chew (I'm talking over 5 minutes sometimes), and end up spitting at least part of it out. We ended up cutting the Medigold into tiny pieces and pre-soaking, but he still didn't really like it. Besides, it sunk *fast*. So I am no fan of their pellets.

Is the Jump Start the same kind of consistency? Otherwise I'd rather just stick to things of theirs that say 'flakes'.

The Jumpstart is also a pellet but it is less dense and hard that Medigold and ProGold. It may be good for fish, but it seems to make my easy-to-float ryukin float like nothing else. I don't know if there's more air in the pellet, or if it causes him gas (do fish get gas? ) or what, but he can't eat more than one serving of it or else he'll float around with his little hump poking out of the water for days.

Yikes . It doesn't sound to be what Fred's fish needs then. I have never used it. The probiotics are the good part and I have that in other food I use.
Oh yes fish get gas. I have a fish that gets gassy/tipsy with bubble poop after certain processed foods. They don't suit him. Raw veggies can have that effect on fish too.

I just got my Jump Start last week and it doesn't sound like Fred's Fishie would like it. Very fast sinking pellets, Luc can't get to them before they hit bottom. They also make a terrible mess if the fish doesn't eat them all, so carefully measured feeding is a must.

--Roc

Thanks for the feedback guys! I do still occassionally use the powder from human probiotics I picked up at GNC and mush it into a pea. I dunno if it helps or not, but it was recommended on here. I also have read online that spirulina is itself a bit naturally probiotic, so thats why I was thinking that (although it wasn't in the context of fish and it was probably from someone trying to sell something).

Its a real shame that all of Rick's pellet foods drop like a rock. Most 'slowly sinking' things I buy are lying, but its usually because half of them float. I may contact Rick and mention it to him - his foods may be 'slowly sinking' compared to a bowling ball, but that's about it. I'd encourage you all to do the same. If he made it less tightly packed, the fish could actually get to it! He might want to know he's losing out on business because of it.

They (the Jump Start) also dissolve quite quickly. I put about 10 pellets in there 15 minutes ago and now I have a pile of brown mush on the bottom of the hospital tank.

--Roc

So its interesting I started this thread at this time - at the time, things were fine, but I just wanted to know if there was something I could do to reduce occassional problems.


Since then things have taken an interesting turn. Sunday night Fishie was quite bulky after dinner, so I decided I wouldn't feed him Monday (yesterday) morning. When I got up yesterday he was even bulkier - as bulky as I've ever seen him. Of course I don't feed him, and I also added just a bit of Epson salt to the tank (he really looked amazingly bulky) to help clear him out.

When I get home from work Monday, he's still pretty darn bulky - better, but not much - and now he's 'sinky'. Meaning heavier than water. This is something he doesn't like one bit, and it causes his to do jumpy things to try to swallow air (I think) and be more floaty. Still very bulky, I don't feed him.

When I get up this morning, he's no longer bulky, but he's even more sinky. This leads to what is usually called 'bottom sitting'. I dont' really consider it a symptom in itself, its because he's heavy - his buoyancy is off - and he gets tired keeping himself afloat, so he'll just rest at the bottom. I know its not good, but its what happens sometimes when I don't feed him (perhaps you see why I worry about fasting him ). After a bit I noticed a couple very large pieces of poo on the bottom of the tank and a couple smaller ones floating around, so he definitely 'emptied himself out' last night. That much is good.

I fed him a pea and a couple crisps this morning (crisps just to get some vitamins and stuff that the peas don't have), and he was moving around somewhat better by the time I left for work, although he was still sinky.


He's recovered from things like this twice before - and both those were even worse than this (once he couldn't swim straight, and once he was curved and looked doomed). He seems to do fine fasting for a day when he's already fine, but if he's having problems, fasting seems to lead to balance, buoyancy, and swimming issues.

I've been considering that perhaps I have been feeding him too much, or at least too often. Let me ask you guys a typical question: how much food does a 5-6" comet need in a day? And, to give you a frame of reference, answer in # of half peas (I know peas vary in size, but average-sized). 1? 2? 3? 4?

I feel I feed him as often as I do because I can't feed him all that much at each meal without causing problems. So I try to feed him less, more often. But perhaps longer between larger meals would be good for him. I dunno. So, how much would you feed?

Hmm.
I'm starting to wonder if there is some other, underlying reason for his bloating; like a cyst/tumour which may provide a partial obstruction of his digestive tract, leading to slow digestion and gas production. Perhaps Trinket will be back on later and might have an opinion.
Also, would you consider him a thinnish fish, aside of his bulge? Or is he a normal width.
Internal parasites can block the intestines and cause swelling and digestive problems, too. Have you ever treated him with Prazi? Rick makes a med food called Dewormer which is basically Prazi food and deals with tapeworms (and deep seated gill flukes) I wonder if there would be any disadvantage to trying it?
Again, let's wait for Trinket - who I know is proceeding on the basis of his having compromised digestion following his earlier poor conditions - I am just trying to think of any other possible cause.

Daryl says feed the number of pellets that would cover your fishes' eye once per day. Because peas are less calorie-dense than pellets, I would assume that you would feed a larger volume if you were feeding peas. This always works out to a lot less than I am tempted to feed. I don't know if this guideline is specific to fancy goldfish or if it applies to commons as well. I think I remember from the Tetra Goldfish Crisps bottle that they recommend one crisp per inch of fish.

Right, thats why I started this thread. Wondering if there's some other underlying issue that maybe we should consider treating. We did give a shot at the medigold a while back, but the side effects (constipation, and he really didn't like the food) were worse than the original problems.

This is his third bad episode, with a month or two in between each. Most of the time its just moderate bulky/floatiness.


Thin? Hmmm, I dunno, I don't have much to compare with. I'm only pretty sure he's a comet even (I used to think he was a common, because he doesn't have a dramatically forked tail), which are known for being sleek in the first place, aren't they? He's hard to get clear pictures of, because he's a pretty fast mover when he's well, and the one camera we have that works doesn't have a fast action mode.

Here's a couple pictures on him after we first moved him into his big tank back in November. In the first one I think you can see a bit of a bulge near on his side towards his lower rear fin, or maybe its just his positioning.
http://mysite.verizon.net/fredct/fishie1.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/fredct/fishie2.jpg

When I get home today I'll see if I can get some clearer pictures. If he's feeling well it may be tough, hopefully he is anyway, but if he's not at least the pictures will be easier.

Will certainly wait for Trinket and others. My lastest GFConnection order already shipped yesterday anyway, so no point in rushing.

Lucky for him he has big eyes . But, if that's the volume guideline, then I'm probably feeding too much. Well, I'm probably feeding about that, but doing it twice per day.

Btw, on the tetra crisps, I just found this online: "Feeding Guide: As a general rule, feed two to three times daily, as much as your fish can eat within three minutes. For example, feed one crisp per one inch of fish per feeding. Does not cloud water when used as directed." So again they go with the 'eat in 3 minutes'. For my fish, that'd be a whole bottle!

Following the example though, it says to do the 'one per inch' 2 or 3 times a day. So, if feeding once per day, that would be 2 or 3 crisps per inch. I tend to probably do 10-12 crisps, but that's usually half of one meal. Again implying I'm doing too much, except by the '3 minute' guideline.


The guy always looks so hungry, I'm scared of underfeeding him too (but yes, I know they do that!). When he's not bulky his underside does semi-often look 'flattened', which I thought was a sign of underfeeding, so perhaps it helped convince me to feed more. But by the guidelines here, I should maybe go back to one meal per day more often.

"The guy always looks so hungry, I'm scared of underfeeding him too (but yes, I know they do that!). When he's not bulky his underside does semi-often look 'flattened', which I thought was a sign of underfeeding, so perhaps it helped convince me to feed more. But by the guidelines here, I should maybe go back to one meal per day more often. "

Maybe you should try a round of Dewormer? It is not the same as MediGold which is an anti-biotic food - this is Prazi food and will purge any worms should he have any. The over stimulated appetite, the bloating and the flattened underside could be signs of an infestation.

I hope Trinket chimes in as she may have more experience of diagnosing this possibility.

Regarding feeding according to length - I have a ranchu and an oranda who are both the same length, but the ranchu has a very deep body and probably weighs 3 times as much as the oranda. He eats much more food, much more quickly than his more slender friend. So, I think body mass also plays a part in the quantity required.

Thanks guys. Will definitely wait to hear further from Trinket. And I'll see what Fishie looks like when I get home of course.

Question though: I see nothing on GFC called 'dewormer'. I see 'Medi-Worm' and 'Metro-Meds', which are both for worms/parasites. Are these both hard little pellets like Medigold? If so, I might prefer to consider a waterborne prazi treatment. The problem there is both the AquaPrazi and the PraziPro talk about 55 gallon tanks. Are they not appropriate for a 20 gallon like we have?

Not buying anything yet, but just asking.

OK - he must have changed the name. It will be the Medi-Worm. Metro-Meds are not what you want.
If Trinket agrees with this, I would say that the waterborne Prazi would not be enough to get inside the fish when it comes to treating for tapeworm.
It would always be a possibility to grind the pellets and make a gel food if it turned out to be indigestible for him.

I have bad news... I'm not going to be able to get many good pictures, because he's swimming all over the place He looks quite normal this evening, happy and hungry. As if nothing was ever wrong, same as the last two times he's had significant episodes.

The only bad thing at all is he had a scale on his tail that's mostly peeled off. He doesn't seem bothered by it, I guess he bumped it or scraped it or something. Especially when he's sinky and therefore jumpy, he can be moving pretty fast sometime. Unless there's any chance its a sign of something?

The scale missing probably means little in connection.

It is just going to be a case of ruling out one thing at a time.

Pixiefish -I am wondering if internal worms are not a possibilty too. Fred has your fish ever been fed any live foods or live dried foods? De-worming foods will not harm your fish even if he is worm free.

Live? Not that I know of. The only thing I have first hand experience with is dried baby shrimp. We haven't fed those in months as they were the first food to cause the floaty problems back last year. I know my girlfriend said they once fed him krill but I don't think he really liked it or something.

I currently do feed him the frozen omnivore stuff which has krill in it too, although that hasn't been particularly problematic.

Although if there's no harm done trying the medi-worm, I guess I may as well? My concern is there are no instructions on GFC about how much of that needs to be fed, etc, and if I can feed it along with other things. Does anyone know? Also, I'm afraid its the same rock hard, fast-sinking pellets as the medigold. Does anyone know if pre-soaking it is okay?

I'd soak it for a couple of mins. It's normally important with medfood not to dilute the dose by offering other foods. I'd offer maybe 3 pellets at a time - I'm sure the tub will have instructions.

My girlfriend also chimed in that he has very occassionally eaten a bug that may've landed in his tank, and that her father would also, very occassional drop in a bug he had killed. This was very rare over a number of years, but has happened.

Rick replies to me (I asked if soaking was okay, or if they'd consider making a non-pellet non-quick sinking version):


------------

Not so sure about his ratio of 100:1, as he's probably more likely to hear back from thrilled people rather than people who have decided to use something else, but it seems I should probably stay away from his medicated food products.

I'm looking into the Jungle anti-parasite food too. Its also a prazi-based thing, and they recomment it as an occassional preventative, so it also sounds pretty gentle I guess.

Here's a page on it - it says its floating, so that's a plus:
http://www.junglelabs.com/pages/details.asp?item=JF170

Should I go for it?

Well, first - I'm so sorry I said to soak them - the others seemed OK with a little softening (MM's etc) I did not know that the Medi-Worm would loose its 'punch'.
But I don't understand why Rick suggests ProGold? If it were just for dietary and digestive benefits, fine - but we were wanting to treat for worms.
The Jungle brand contains mostly metronidazole, some levamisol and a small amount of Prazi, too. Metro (an antibiotic) treats things like Hexamita and giardia, Levamisol is good for nematodes, and Prazi for tapes. Although it has less Prazi than the Medi-worm, it doestreat other types of parasites and also has the benefit of an anti-inflmmatory effect on the digestive tract.
I'm not sure there is any evidence of Hex, although some nematodes are associated with gut blockage and GI gas production (Capillaria, for instance). Maybe Trinket will have an opinion on the Jungle Food. I'm not sure I can remember why you prefer the idea of floating food over pellets?
The benefit of Prazi is that it is entirely harmless to fish; metronidazole, on the other hand, is an antibiotic, so it will knock out a certain amount of the natural immunity along with any actual pathogens which may/may not be present.

I think Rick got a bit confused writing the email, because he mentioned medication and also progold. I just think it was because he was defending the type of pellet, which is probably the same for ProGold, Medigold, Medi-Worm, etc. But the key point from him was not to soak medicated food, which makes his stuff a no-go for me.

As far as floating, its not that the floating itself is good (its actually kinda bad due to air swallowing and all), its just good in that it means the pellets aren't hard as a rock, fast sinkers like Rick's stuff. If they float, they must be less dense.


I get the feeling that Jungle's recommendation of using their foods as a preventative would be strongly disagreed with around here (I see that they recommend the same for their anti-bacterial food). And I would probably agree. So I guess the question is if its worth it in my case. I do have the probiotic powder, as well as the spirulina on the way, to help him rebuild some natural good internal bacteria afterwards.

Its a shame I can't use any of Rick's medicated foods, but so long as he insists on sticking with the rock hard pellets, it seems its offlimits for me.


It seems the only other choices behind the jungle stuff are 1) waterborne prazi which is non-harmful but not as effective since its not swallowed or 2) do nothing and keep managing the conditions. I await Trinket's sage opinion, and any other sage opinions people wish to offer

(Note: when I said I would probably agree, I meant I would agree with you guys not to use it as a preventative, but, of course, that's not really my situation right now)

So the more I watch the more I think maybe he is a bit thin... he does tend to have a compressed belly in the mornings... unless I'm just looking for it now. Nonetheless, unless I hear otherwise, I'm thinking maybe I should give the jungle food a shot. I'd love if I could actually finally solve this, and based on their recommendation it sounds gentle enough, if not as gentle as pure prazi (but also wider spectrum). Would anyone object?

Yes I suppose its worth trying. Do you think it seems less compressed?

But I just want to throw one more spanner in the works if I may. Can you take a look at the pic below and find the kidney. Is it possible that the lump could be an enlarged kidney -often this is on one side- where all along we have been thinking some inflammation or lump in the colon or along the intestinal tract wall..kidney bloat (and renal failure) reduces the fishes ability to digest foods and the bloat might occur as it is struggling to do just that. Just another thing to think about and again I'm sorry for always suggesting something else and not having any definitives here.

It kinda depends. Sometimes the bulk is right on the side, like that, but more often I'd say it tends to be lower, along the bottom half of his body, not right in the middle, so more like where the intenstines are. When he's particularly bad you can tell from the other side because the lower portion of his body is extended downwards a bit out-of-shape too. Now this could be the kidney pushing things down, but there are definitely times when its lower than that, its not entirely consistent though.

If it was an enlarged kidney, would that likely be caused by bacteria, parasites, either, neither?

P.S. Never apologize for making a suggestion... you thoughts are always valuable and always helpful.

Fred- Have you started on the Jungle antiparasite food? I think you should. It contains metronidazole an antibiotic, anti-inflammatory that knocks out anaerobes in the GI tract/colon so will help I am sure- even if there are no internal parasites. It doesn't sound like the kidney. The area you speak of and the pic you posted look as you say very like an enlarged or inflamed area of the intestines.

Thanks Trinket, you're up late . I started it this morning. All the big chains apparently only sell the stuff online, not in their stores, but then I found a small local pet shop that carried it 5 minutes from work, so I ran out yesterday on my lunch break. I noticed the ingredients are fairly starchy (cornmeal, etc), so I wasn't surprised when it bulked him up pretty good, but it went down mostly within a couple hours.

I do plan to continue with it for as long as its possible. Its a good thing that this stuff calls for a 3 day on, 4 days off rotation, it'll make it easier knowing he can have a few days of peas and normal stuff in between. I may have to skip a meal sometime this weekend, but the instructions say '1 to 2 times a day', so I'd still be within the rules. Maybe skip tomorrow morning if he still has a good sized reaction to tonight's dinner.

But I am starting it, and hope to continue it. Your reassurance on it being helpful is great to hear. If it can even improve somewhat, I'd be thrilled. I will indeed report back.

I was yes . Not sure what happened last night- couldn't sleep.




Good. And as you say the 3 day break in the course will give you a chance to see effectiveness.

Things are mostly good after 2 days, with some mildly concerning things. Usually the medicine hasn't made him that bulky, but it does make him floaty, so I havent been able to feed him much. Twice it did make him bulky though - the first time it made him quite bulky, as did it tonight (the 4th time).

Also I'm concerned about it causing constipation again... twice today I have seen very stringy poo from him (in fact, basically nothing but a stringy casing - one that was pobably 5+ inches long). I haven't seen a normal poo since yesterday afternoon, when he had only had one course of the medicated food, although i could've missed it. I didn't skip a meal today, but I may tomorrow morning if he still looks bulky. I feel bad about it cause I haven't been able to feed him a lot, but at least I know he'll be back to regular food soon.

If only I could see one normal poo from him while he was on a medicine, it'd be such a relief. Oh well, we'll see.

Well, more stringy poo, but distinctly less bulky this morning which is good. So I gave him a few more pellets of the jungle food, and half an hour later (after I ate and showered) he still looked pretty good, so I gave him a few more. One more round of the stuff tonight if he looks good and then back to normal food for a few days (yay! ).

It sounds to be going well. It is normal for poo to be strange for a day or so when diet changes. Has he been floaty again at all?

The Jungle food does make him kinda floaty, but it hasn't been extreme. And he *likes* to be kinda floaty... its when he gets sinky that he gets jumpy and annoyed. I judge floatiness by how fast he floats upwards without effort, and in that aspect the effect of the jungle food has been modest. I get more concerned about bulkiness, which sometimes looks like it should be downright painful. In that its been hit or miss, but this morning was pretty good.

Underfeeding cause stringy poo as well, right? I think that may be part of it because I really haven't been able to feed him that much due to the occassional bulkiness (and my fear thereof). But I dunno, I was just glad to see the bulkiness down this morning, because thats *not* what happened with the Medigold... with that he just got bigger and bigger and bigger...

P.S. Since I'm a wussy, and I don't want to underfeed the guy too much, what would you think of having 3 complete days of jungle food - finishing tonight probably around 6 pm - and then maybe giving him half a pea at 9 before bedtime to get him a little more food and back on a more normal diet? Would that break the spirit or effectiveness of the thing? I want to accelerate the cycle just a little bit, because currently week 4 is a weekend that we're scheduled to be away. If I can accelerate it just a bit, I can make it such that we finish up right before we leave, instead of starting week 4 right when we leave.

I think you have already signed and sealed this plan of feeding action haven't you The only worry is the metronidazole. The other ingredients in the medication -no -it wont make any difference to juggle a day here or there. But the metro is an antibiotic and so requires a set final quantity dosage. I suppose theoretically you could just add on another few days of feeding after you return from the weekend away to compensate for that though..



I hope this is going to be corrected. I understand what you mean that sinking seems less in line with normal fish movement/behavior and therefore "likes" but I don't think fish really enjoy being floaty either. In fact fish that flipover have been recorded as having very high levels of stress.

Let me clarify a bit... I don't plan on at all changing the total dosage, its just that, instead of taking 4 days off in between, I would take about 3-3.5. So its the days off I would decrease - and just slightly - not the medicine days. That way, by the time 4 weeks roll around, I'm starting on Thursday or Wednesday, instead of having started on Saturday. And then I can finish by Saturday-ish.

Similarly, with tonight, I wouldn't give him any less medicated food, its just that I would give him the normal amount that I'd give him, and then a few hour later, also give half a pea or something.

So I promise that, unless I see significant problems, I will not reduce the doseage, I will just slightly reduce the off-days in between, to speed up the cycle. But you're right, delaying the last weekend's worth is an option too, although it seems to me that could be worse because then the dosage in him will fade more in between.

Yes? No?




To clarify again, when I say floaty I mean very mildly floaty, to the point of causing no flipping or tipping. Just so that when he sleeps, he does so up against the surface. And such that when he wants to come up, he can just slowly floaty gently to the top over a ~10 second period.

As an old fish, he doesn't have great balance in general, even when sleeping in the middle of the water his head will tip down or he'll roll 20-40 degrees to the side. Even without being floaty at all. I'd be thrilled if this course of treatment helps him regain some mid-water balance. If it even kinda helps one of the issues (bulkiness, floatiness, balance), that'd be great.

It would be, and I hope so too.
The plan you have sounds fine. As long as he doesn't refuse the med food it sounds like you should be able to complete the amount needed within the time frame. So- yes.

So I didn't give him the pea last night cause he still looked a little bulky, so I let him rest overnight. I gave him half a pea this morning, and, well, I'd be lying if I said he was as bad as I've ever seen him... he was probably worse. Not encouraging after his first course of medication.

I feel like I should definitely skip dinner and give him a 24 hour break from food, but I haven't been feeding him a lot on the medication so I'm gonna feel bad about it, but I guess it needs to be done.

In order for the meds to work you are going to have to feed him a reasonable amount.
My concern is that if you you get so scared each time he bulks up that you bottle-out on the medfood, or under feed, he may not get enough medication to really sort him out. The metro is an anti-inflammatory which should help a little. Other than being bulky are there any other symptoms?

I think I may need to skip a meal during the med feedings so that I can actually feed him more total. I think I may have made that mistake. The symptoms just are the usual bulkiness and floatiness. I'll try to do that on the next course of med food next weekend.

But honestly, sometimes he gets so bulky that it looks painful, nearly twice his normal width at parts/times. I can't bear to feed the guy anymore at time, or else it looks like his skin would tear open. What I need to do is pre-empt it so if he looks bulky I skip a meal.

Update on tonight: he's still quite bulky and kinda floaty, but not tipsy. I gave him some epsom salt again. No food tonight, we'll see how he looks in the morning.