Hello All!
So our Big Ricki has developed a number of blood red splotches on his body and fins. He's had them before, most of them have, and they usually go away in a day or so. In the past, I've attributed the marks as being small scrapes or wounds created by the fish forcing themselves under the arch decoration even though they are too big to do so without scraping themselves against it.
Fins are not frayed or clamped, he seems normal in every way except for the spots.
I've salted the water 1 teaspoon per gallon and added extra Stress Coat.
Will try to post some pictures in the hopes we can figure out what this is.
--Roc
Full Version: Red Blotches
hello rocmills... 
sorry to hear that big ricki has got some red blotches goin on...
i'm sure the first thing the mods will ask you is for more information regarding your water quality.
could you please answer the questions in the white box at the top of the page?
you can copy and paste it into the text box and answer them that way.
sorry to hear that big ricki has got some red blotches goin on...
i'm sure the first thing the mods will ask you is for more information regarding your water quality.
could you please answer the questions in the white box at the top of the page?
you can copy and paste it into the text box and answer them that way.
Water parameters are fine, I assure you. Tested weekly with almost no fluxuation. Tank is fully cycled.
Here are some pix:
--Roc
Here are some pix:
--Roc
The reason that we ask for the basic information about a tank/fish is that, when trying to make an accurate diagnosis, it is imperitive to have as much information about the subject as possible. Just as you would not want your doctor telling you to "take two aspirin and call me in the morning" without asking WHY your leg turned black and fell off, you would not want us giving you a diagnosis without a bit of background.
Nearly every single problem that goes on with fish either is caused, stems from or is exasperated by water conditions. Water may be "fine" but not "fine enough". Water is an even better vector of disease and parastites than the air that we live in, is.
That said, have your fish ever shown a small, whitish fuzz - or haze over the body? When you add salt, does the haze go away, leaving the red marks at the base?
Nearly every single problem that goes on with fish either is caused, stems from or is exasperated by water conditions. Water may be "fine" but not "fine enough". Water is an even better vector of disease and parastites than the air that we live in, is.
That said, have your fish ever shown a small, whitish fuzz - or haze over the body? When you add salt, does the haze go away, leaving the red marks at the base?
No, the fish have never had ich or spots or film or any sort of fungus. Nothing new has been added to the tank in many years.
--Roc
--Roc
It would really help if you can tell us about the tank, things in the tank. Im not sure but it looks like you might have a bacterial problem in the tank 
But with out more information it would be hard to tell and we dont want to subject the fish to meds that they may not need
But with out more information it would be hard to tell and we dont want to subject the fish to meds that they may not need
This is a well established tank, discussed at length on another thread here at Koko's.
The 55 gallon tank has 3 large comets and two plecos inhabiting it. We are filtering close to 700 gph, if memory serves; one canister filter with lots of bio media, one HOB with two bio-wheels. For decoration we have one piece of driftwood which has been present in the tank for about two years and 1 archway that has been in the tank forever. There are two large bubble wand airstones. That's it. Nothing new has been added to the tank in a very very long time... just the opposite, as the fishies got bigger we started removing things like plastic plants and other decorations. We have gravel as the substrate and that has also been present since the tank was first set up.
Tank gets 50%+ water changes once a week.
In the past, we have seen an occasion red blotch on the fish but it has always cleared up on its own in a day or two. This is the first time that so many blotches have appeared and stayed for many days. Only one of the three fish is showing these symptoms. The other two fish appear unaffected, and the guy with the red spots is behaving normally in every way; he eats, he plays, he sleeps (actually, all five of the tanks inhabitants sleep together in a wad in one corner of the tank - it's pretty funny to see first thing in the morning or in the middle of the night).
Water parameters are as follows (as of 10 minutes ago) and it does seem that I have developed an ammonia problem, but I can't imagine where it is coming from:
NO2 .1
Amm. 5.0
GH 180
KH 0
pH 6.0
NO3 40
Test results are from a drop kit, not a strip.
Will increase water changes until I get the ammonia under control. KH has never tested at zero before, not sure what that means or if it is just an artifact of the ammonia.
--Roc
The 55 gallon tank has 3 large comets and two plecos inhabiting it. We are filtering close to 700 gph, if memory serves; one canister filter with lots of bio media, one HOB with two bio-wheels. For decoration we have one piece of driftwood which has been present in the tank for about two years and 1 archway that has been in the tank forever. There are two large bubble wand airstones. That's it. Nothing new has been added to the tank in a very very long time... just the opposite, as the fishies got bigger we started removing things like plastic plants and other decorations. We have gravel as the substrate and that has also been present since the tank was first set up.
Tank gets 50%+ water changes once a week.
In the past, we have seen an occasion red blotch on the fish but it has always cleared up on its own in a day or two. This is the first time that so many blotches have appeared and stayed for many days. Only one of the three fish is showing these symptoms. The other two fish appear unaffected, and the guy with the red spots is behaving normally in every way; he eats, he plays, he sleeps (actually, all five of the tanks inhabitants sleep together in a wad in one corner of the tank - it's pretty funny to see first thing in the morning or in the middle of the night).
Water parameters are as follows (as of 10 minutes ago) and it does seem that I have developed an ammonia problem, but I can't imagine where it is coming from:
NO2 .1
Amm. 5.0
GH 180
KH 0
pH 6.0
NO3 40
Test results are from a drop kit, not a strip.
Will increase water changes until I get the ammonia under control. KH has never tested at zero before, not sure what that means or if it is just an artifact of the ammonia.
--Roc
Hello Roc,
just curious as to whether or not you did a water change recently?
when you do water changes, do you sift around the gravel a lot?
and last of all do you know what kind of plecos are in the tank with your goldfish? if i remember correctly from your picture thread, they are common plecos right?
something else to consider with the gravel, is it small enough for the goldfish to sift through?
i remember reading something about how sometimes food particles that drop into the gravel can decompose causing noxious buildup of gas and other "stuff" that can be released during water changes and the like.
maybe something in the water is causing the irritation? and your goldie just happens to be the most sensitive of the three.
i am just guessing here, but i think it might be something to consider?
hopefully one of our disease experts will be by shortly.
just curious as to whether or not you did a water change recently?
when you do water changes, do you sift around the gravel a lot?
and last of all do you know what kind of plecos are in the tank with your goldfish? if i remember correctly from your picture thread, they are common plecos right?
something else to consider with the gravel, is it small enough for the goldfish to sift through?
i remember reading something about how sometimes food particles that drop into the gravel can decompose causing noxious buildup of gas and other "stuff" that can be released during water changes and the like.
maybe something in the water is causing the irritation? and your goldie just happens to be the most sensitive of the three.
i am just guessing here, but i think it might be something to consider?
hopefully one of our disease experts will be by shortly.
Tink,
Last water change was last Sunday. Am going to do one today as well, with another on Sunday to come; and I just "cleaned" the cannister filter - rinsed in tank water, replaced the water polishing pads only and rinsed the foam media from the HOB.
I change the water with a large gravel vac suction thingie. I don't *stir* the gravel, per se, but I do dig into it with the siphon... however, not enough for the gunk to stir up and cloud the water while I am doing the change.
I'm not sure what you mean by is the gravel small enough for the fish to sift through... It is relatively large gravel, but they can get several pieces in their mouths when they are hunting for food at the bottom.
Also forgot to mention a large-ish rock in the tank - it is just a bit larger than the fish themselves.
Yes, two common plecos both with birth defects - one of them so severe that he cannot suck onto things like he should, though he has learned to eat food from the surface.
I'm guessing now that what I am seeing are ammonia burns and that Ricki is just the most sensitive. The water has started to cloud lately, and I understand that excess ammonia can cause that. Can't imagine what has caused the tank to go south like this when it has been so perfect these last couple of months.
--Roc
Last water change was last Sunday. Am going to do one today as well, with another on Sunday to come; and I just "cleaned" the cannister filter - rinsed in tank water, replaced the water polishing pads only and rinsed the foam media from the HOB.
I change the water with a large gravel vac suction thingie. I don't *stir* the gravel, per se, but I do dig into it with the siphon... however, not enough for the gunk to stir up and cloud the water while I am doing the change.
I'm not sure what you mean by is the gravel small enough for the fish to sift through... It is relatively large gravel, but they can get several pieces in their mouths when they are hunting for food at the bottom.
Also forgot to mention a large-ish rock in the tank - it is just a bit larger than the fish themselves.
Yes, two common plecos both with birth defects - one of them so severe that he cannot suck onto things like he should, though he has learned to eat food from the surface.
I'm guessing now that what I am seeing are ammonia burns and that Ricki is just the most sensitive. The water has started to cloud lately, and I understand that excess ammonia can cause that. Can't imagine what has caused the tank to go south like this when it has been so perfect these last couple of months.
--Roc
Yikes! 5.0 ammonia is VERY dangerous. Keep an eye on those water params and do lots of water changes.
It looks like you may have had a cycle crash.
It looks like you may have had a cycle crash.
QUOTE(rocmills @ May 17 2008, 05:52 AM) 
just the opposite, as the fishies got bigger we started removing things like plastic plants and other decorations.
kH =0 ; not sure what that means or if it is just an artifact of the ammonia.
--Roc
kH =0 ; not sure what that means or if it is just an artifact of the ammonia.
--Roc
QUOTE(rocmills @ May 17 2008, 06:16 AM)
Last water change was last Sunday. Am going to do one today as well, with another on Sunday to come; and I just "cleaned" the cannister filter - rinsed in tank water, replaced the water polishing pads only and rinsed the foam media from the HOB.
I see a problem here. Thorough cleaning of filter media on the same day + gradual reduction of tank furniture can reduce nitrosomonas bacteria responsible for keeping down levels of UIA (toxic ammonia). As the fish get bigger (eating more and producing more poop and ammonia excretions) and a tank is set up for longer, the fish need more of these bacteria not less. We get comfortable and forget that ammonia absorption by the bbs reaches a capacity that our media platform may no longer be able to handle. This is also related intricately to pH fluctuations and changes.
A sudden kH of zero may well indicate cycle crash and that your tap water pH has been unstable for some time. pH issues plus ammonia is a serious double whammy for fish health.
These red spots/freckles appear as ammonia burns through parts of the skin, making the fish susceptible to bacterial infection. Ammonia poisoning.
In a long established tank kH can suddenly crash. This can be followed or started by an algae crash. A sudden die off of tank algae reduces ammonia assimilation PLUS adds to ammonia build up by decaying of the algae. Algae and bbs were removed on the plastic plants and items you removed from the tank and to compensate, extra filter media to house more bbs should have been added.
Your main priority now is to reduce stress via ammonia reduction and pH stability. Levels between 1-2 PPM of ammonia for 4 days have been known to cause death in susceptible fish. Looks like your huge and robust healthy fish have weathered 5PPm well, all but Ricki.
You can add zeolite to the filter box for immediate help. But it's a temporary fix- a few days only. You must stabilise pH. You need to add more filtration media. I would fast the fish for 3 days and get the water right. An extra side or HOB filter would do wonders longterm to get you back on track and over this bump.
Okay, went to the lfs and bought all kinds of stuff to tackle this thing. Got a new HOB filtering 325 gph, which gives us a total of 955 gph filtration on a 55 gallon tank. Got a bottle of Cycle, a bottle of pH balancer, couple of bags of zeolite which I stuck in the new HOB. Forgot to get ammonia neutralizer, but if the other stuff doesn't handle that then I can always pick some up later.
Also treated the hospital tank with the pH balancer, but not the Cycle.
And I think I know where this started... every year around this time, the City of Las Vegas switches water sources from reservoir to ground water aquifers (or the other way around). Tested tap for ammonia and it is about 1 instead of zero, yuck. So I will start increasing the amount of condition I use when I do water changes.
Trinket, what is the purpose of fasting the fish?
I will try to do a 50% water change every other day for the next week or so until this gets back under control. The new HOB is an Aqueon and has lots and lots of places for bb to grow.
--Roc
Also treated the hospital tank with the pH balancer, but not the Cycle.
And I think I know where this started... every year around this time, the City of Las Vegas switches water sources from reservoir to ground water aquifers (or the other way around). Tested tap for ammonia and it is about 1 instead of zero, yuck. So I will start increasing the amount of condition I use when I do water changes.
Trinket, what is the purpose of fasting the fish?
I will try to do a 50% water change every other day for the next week or so until this gets back under control. The new HOB is an Aqueon and has lots and lots of places for bb to grow.
--Roc
Everything you are doing sounds good.
The extra filtration and media will soon start to make a huge difference as more bbs kick in. Yes you are now running over the basic GPH rule but then your fish are far from basic sized aquarium fish.
That'll be part of it for sure the tap water source changing.
If you fast the fish for a few days, ammonia excretions (from the gills and in poo) are reduced temporarily while the bbs get to work at reproducing to help balance things out. If you can test and juggle the ammonia in another way (zeolite) then you may be okay to feed but feed lightly as all the added help you have added takes a day or two min. to get to work.
The extra filtration and media will soon start to make a huge difference as more bbs kick in. Yes you are now running over the basic GPH rule but then your fish are far from basic sized aquarium fish.
That'll be part of it for sure the tap water source changing.
If you fast the fish for a few days, ammonia excretions (from the gills and in poo) are reduced temporarily while the bbs get to work at reproducing to help balance things out. If you can test and juggle the ammonia in another way (zeolite) then you may be okay to feed but feed lightly as all the added help you have added takes a day or two min. to get to work.
Okay, got a large bottle of ammonia detoxifier and one of those meters from Seachem that hangs in the tank and gives readings all the time (got one for the ammonia and one for pH). LFS only had one, so I guess I will swap it from one tank to the other if I get tired of doing the drop tests daily. I figure if the main tank is having ammonia issues, there might be a problem in the hospital tank as well and that can't be good for Luc's mouth.
Ricki's blotches look better today, and the last drop test indicated the ammonia was already down from 5 to 1.25 so my attack seems to be working. Another water change today should help, too.
--Roc
Ricki's blotches look better today, and the last drop test indicated the ammonia was already down from 5 to 1.25 so my attack seems to be working. Another water change today should help, too.
--Roc
i'm glad to hear that the problem is on it's way to being resolved. 
I am well and truly perplexed.
The Seachem ammonia meter I purchased and which has been in the tank for three days now, says that there is no ammonia in the water. The strip test says there is no ammonia in the water. But the drop kit still reads at 4 or 5 parts ammonia. This after adding another HOB, adding two bags of zeolite to the HOB, dosing with Ammonia Lock every day, two water changes of 75% each and almost no food being given. This can't be right.
I am beginning to question the validity of the test results, but I have no idea how else to determine the ammonia levels in the tank.
Ricki's red spots are getting better, and the other two fish show no signs of disease, damage, or distress. Even the two plecos are acting perfectly normal (for them, anyway).
Maybe I should purchase a new drop kit in case something has compromised my existing kit. I know that strip tests are not very accurate, and I know nothing about the in-tank meters or how accurate they are.
--Roc
The Seachem ammonia meter I purchased and which has been in the tank for three days now, says that there is no ammonia in the water. The strip test says there is no ammonia in the water. But the drop kit still reads at 4 or 5 parts ammonia. This after adding another HOB, adding two bags of zeolite to the HOB, dosing with Ammonia Lock every day, two water changes of 75% each and almost no food being given. This can't be right.
I am beginning to question the validity of the test results, but I have no idea how else to determine the ammonia levels in the tank.
Ricki's red spots are getting better, and the other two fish show no signs of disease, damage, or distress. Even the two plecos are acting perfectly normal (for them, anyway).
Maybe I should purchase a new drop kit in case something has compromised my existing kit. I know that strip tests are not very accurate, and I know nothing about the in-tank meters or how accurate they are.
--Roc
i'm sure someone will explain this more eloquently, but there are kits that measure total ammonia in the tank, and kits that measure the ammonia a fish is feeling in a tank (don't know the term for this) -- my drop kit (API master freshwater) reads both (NH3 NH4).
maybe this could explain it?
how are the fish looking lately? any improvement on big ricki?
maybe this could explain it?
how are the fish looking lately? any improvement on big ricki?
Since I was questioning the veracity of my results, I decided to test some bottled spring water.
Wow, either the FDA needs to be brought in or there is something wrong with my test kit as it is saying that my Dannon Spring! water is 1 ppm ammonia, and I know that ain't right.
--Roc
Wow, either the FDA needs to be brought in or there is something wrong with my test kit as it is saying that my Dannon Spring! water is 1 ppm ammonia, and I know that ain't right.
--Roc
The API test is giving you those results? Whoa. I'd double-check your method and then call the manufacturer!
The kit is Fresh Lab by Red Sea. Double and triple checked my methods... rinse test tube in tank water, fill to the 3 mark, add one scope (scooper provided) of powder from bottle A, shake gently for two seconds, add 5 drops of Reagent B and shake gently for 20 seconds, wait 15 minutes and read results. See, I got it memorized by now.
Tomorrow I will buy an ammonia-only drop kit from a different manufacturer and see what happens.
Per the burns on Ricki, I think it's safe to assume I do or did have an ammonia problem, but the ammonia levels should not still be so high considering all I have done so far.
--Roc
Tomorrow I will buy an ammonia-only drop kit from a different manufacturer and see what happens.
Per the burns on Ricki, I think it's safe to assume I do or did have an ammonia problem, but the ammonia levels should not still be so high considering all I have done so far.
--Roc
I find that the more steps a test has, the more chance there is of messing it up. The API drop kits are easy, fast, and accurate. You should be able to find a single ammonia test by API. Good luck Roxy.
Bought the API ammonia kit... it still tests the tank out at slightly less than 2 ppm ammonia. This is better than the 5 we started out with, but I expected better results by now. Maybe I just need to give it more time.
Ricki is acting lethargic - bottom sitting, not alot, but enough to notice. I think the blotches might be getting worse, or, rather, that there may be more of them.
Don't know what else to do at this point.
There's an overwhelming amount of human drama and trauma in my life right now, I don't know if I can tend to yet another sick fish - especially since I can't seem to control the problem at any level.
--Roc
Ricki is acting lethargic - bottom sitting, not alot, but enough to notice. I think the blotches might be getting worse, or, rather, that there may be more of them.
Don't know what else to do at this point.
There's an overwhelming amount of human drama and trauma in my life right now, I don't know if I can tend to yet another sick fish - especially since I can't seem to control the problem at any level.
--Roc
I'm sorry to hear that "real" life isn't going well for you. 
IMHO, any ammonia above 1ppm is harmful, and I never let it get above 0.5ppm when I'm cycling a tank with fish. Ricky's behavior is probably due to water conditions.
I would just do more water changes-- as many as you can to bring down that ammonia. Hopefully things will get better-- either with your fish or with the drama/trauma-- so that you don't feel so stressed.
Joy
IMHO, any ammonia above 1ppm is harmful, and I never let it get above 0.5ppm when I'm cycling a tank with fish. Ricky's behavior is probably due to water conditions.
I would just do more water changes-- as many as you can to bring down that ammonia. Hopefully things will get better-- either with your fish or with the drama/trauma-- so that you don't feel so stressed.
Joy
roc~ I know this is the last thing you need when real life is heavy but hang in there for Ricki please. One thing that really really helps is adding more filter media- it takes a few days to work but it works. Stuff floss into the filter boxes, every small space you have in there. The more nitrosomonas( good) bacteria you have the more the ammonia will drop down..the blotches will react to/flare with stress. Stress is the ammonia. The blotches went away when the ammonia went down remember? As if you didn't know that. Any more zeolite to hand as a temporary fix? What's the tap ammonia reading now?
Do what you can and then get some rest knowing you have
Do what you can and then get some rest knowing you have
definitely hang in there for ricki. i know this might sound goofy, but i was dealing with work/life stress when Fisher was sick and focusing on fixing him would sort of let me forget about the rest of everything for a little bit. when i was doing twice daily water changes and such, that was my only 'zen' time.
good luck on both fronts: humans and fishies.
good luck on both fronts: humans and fishies.
Well, son of a gun!
I stopped on the way home from work today to buy more zeolite and lots of filter floss, as recommended. But when I got home, Ricki hasn't a single mark on him! Hurray! I can't believe it. At least I am now prepared for the next time this happens.
Thank you to everyone for the concern and support and encouragement; I couldn't a done it without you folks cheering me on.
--Roc
I stopped on the way home from work today to buy more zeolite and lots of filter floss, as recommended. But when I got home, Ricki hasn't a single mark on him! Hurray! I can't believe it. At least I am now prepared for the next time this happens.
Thank you to everyone for the concern and support and encouragement; I couldn't a done it without you folks cheering me on.
--Roc
... and the really weird part is that the water is still testing at 1-2 ppm with the new API drop kit. So I guess I will continue to treat the water and add that zeolite I bought today (and stuff the filters with foam). I'm just glad Ricki is doing so much better and that the others don't show signs of distress, either.
--Roc
--Roc
I'm glad your fish is feeling better. The ammonia level is troubling, though: Perhaps you should re-test the tap water, see how much ammonia, nitrite, etc you are adding when you do a water change. How are the nitrites and nitrates in your tank? You haven't mentioned them in a while...
Penguin,
I was thinking of ditching the Red Sea kit entirely and going out to buy a nice full range API kit (i only bought the ammonia kit the other day). So I will be running a full battery of tests on tank, tap, and hospital tank later today after I've had a chance to get out to the store.
Ricki seems back to her old self now, no bottom sitting, swimming around with the other fishies.
Even Luc is looking pretty good today.
(oh, and thanks for adding me to your friends list - i think your the first to do so, thanks again for the warm fuzzy)
--Roc
I was thinking of ditching the Red Sea kit entirely and going out to buy a nice full range API kit (i only bought the ammonia kit the other day). So I will be running a full battery of tests on tank, tap, and hospital tank later today after I've had a chance to get out to the store.
Ricki seems back to her old self now, no bottom sitting, swimming around with the other fishies.
Even Luc is looking pretty good today.
(oh, and thanks for adding me to your friends list - i think your the first to do so, thanks again for the warm fuzzy)
--Roc
Before a water change, with the new API test kit:
ph: 6
Nitrite: 1
Nitrate: 40
Amm: 2
Is that pH too low? What are the ideal readings I should be shooting for? I know ammonia should be at zero, and I thought pH was supposed to be 7.5... what are the proper readings for the others?
--Roc
ph: 6
Nitrite: 1
Nitrate: 40
Amm: 2
Is that pH too low? What are the ideal readings I should be shooting for? I know ammonia should be at zero, and I thought pH was supposed to be 7.5... what are the proper readings for the others?
--Roc
It looks bad. pH of 6 is very dangerous. I suspect your kH is slipping which means the pH could plunge farther and if it does can kill your fish fast. I'm sorry to sound so sinister but pH is a killer when it gets this acidic.
You need to immediately add a tablespoon of baking soda, perhaps more but start there and check pH after- it picks up the pH temporarily. You need to look at stabilising that longterm. You may need to add coral or limestone in the filter or as substrate. These slowly release carbonates that stabilise pH. pH must be above 7 at all times. Higher is always better than lower since alkaline water is less lethal on the points scale
Ammonia at 2 is also very scary. Some fish die in exposure of 2 ppm over 2 days. That really has to be lowered. Nitrites at 1 is also dangerous. Must be zero. Nitrites interfere with the fishes ability to transport oxygen and vital nutrients from the water. Nitrites damage gills.
Nitrates are getting high. They should always be kept under 40, although right now these are the least of your worries priority wise.
You need to immediately add a tablespoon of baking soda, perhaps more but start there and check pH after- it picks up the pH temporarily. You need to look at stabilising that longterm. You may need to add coral or limestone in the filter or as substrate. These slowly release carbonates that stabilise pH. pH must be above 7 at all times. Higher is always better than lower since alkaline water is less lethal on the points scale
Ammonia at 2 is also very scary. Some fish die in exposure of 2 ppm over 2 days. That really has to be lowered. Nitrites at 1 is also dangerous. Must be zero. Nitrites interfere with the fishes ability to transport oxygen and vital nutrients from the water. Nitrites damage gills.
Nitrates are getting high. They should always be kept under 40, although right now these are the least of your worries priority wise.
Trinket,
Added a dose of pH stabilizer just now, and will do so again this afternoon after water change.
GH is back to 180, but KH is still at dead zero. The tank is heavily aerated, though, so that should be of some help, yes?
I will also finish off the bottle of Cycle when I change the water. The HOBs are positively stuffed with zeolite, so I don't know what more I can do there. Am filtering 955 gallons per hour in a 55 gallon tank.
What can I do to help the carbonate hardness get back where it belongs? Is that what the coral or limestone is for? I'll see if I can pick some up today.
The ammonia is down from 5 to 2, I think a few more days will see it level off finally.
--Roc
Added a dose of pH stabilizer just now, and will do so again this afternoon after water change.
GH is back to 180, but KH is still at dead zero. The tank is heavily aerated, though, so that should be of some help, yes?
I will also finish off the bottle of Cycle when I change the water. The HOBs are positively stuffed with zeolite, so I don't know what more I can do there. Am filtering 955 gallons per hour in a 55 gallon tank.
What can I do to help the carbonate hardness get back where it belongs? Is that what the coral or limestone is for? I'll see if I can pick some up today.
The ammonia is down from 5 to 2, I think a few more days will see it level off finally.
--Roc
No coral or limestone at the lfs, sigh.
As mentioned in Mouth Rot thread, though, I did pick up three bottles of stuff that are each supposed to help jump start a cycle and keep all the readings, even Kh and Gh, stable. Am about to do a 75% water change on the tank... already "cleaned" the filters (rinsed everything in tank water) and will do a full battery of tests after I have changed the water and added the various treatments. There are six bags of zeolite in the filters of the main tank (each bag supposedly for a 50 gallon tank), and they are less than a week old (supposed to be good for a month).
--Roc
As mentioned in Mouth Rot thread, though, I did pick up three bottles of stuff that are each supposed to help jump start a cycle and keep all the readings, even Kh and Gh, stable. Am about to do a 75% water change on the tank... already "cleaned" the filters (rinsed everything in tank water) and will do a full battery of tests after I have changed the water and added the various treatments. There are six bags of zeolite in the filters of the main tank (each bag supposedly for a 50 gallon tank), and they are less than a week old (supposed to be good for a month).
--Roc
Readings after a 75% water change and treatment...
pH: 7.0
Nitrate: 10
Nitrite: 0
Amm.: 1
GH: 180
KH: 180
Note that Gh and Kh are tested with strips (the same strips that were previously reporting 0 for KH), all other tests are from API drop kit.
--Roc
pH: 7.0
Nitrate: 10
Nitrite: 0
Amm.: 1
GH: 180
KH: 180
Note that Gh and Kh are tested with strips (the same strips that were previously reporting 0 for KH), all other tests are from API drop kit.
--Roc
Good job. Much better. Strange that your kH has done such a huge turnaround. Since your source water seems to be so unpredicatble I still recommend you get your hands on some coral shells or gravel to add to help there. I use coral small stones as substrate - large amounts- as my kH is so crazy.
Otherwise you are doing really well. Everythings going down/stabilising. BTW I said in your mouth rot thread that the zeolite lasts a week, you say a month, different products work differently but I should be wary of them lasting the full month. The ammonia readings will warn you there.
Otherwise you are doing really well. Everythings going down/stabilising. BTW I said in your mouth rot thread that the zeolite lasts a week, you say a month, different products work differently but I should be wary of them lasting the full month. The ammonia readings will warn you there.
It's great to see that your water is back to a safe condition, and Ricki is feeling better. The 1ppm ammonia from the tap sure isn't helping, though...
Cripes!
So I just read the information on the bottle for Ammo Lock - it removes the harmful ammonia but will still cause a FALSE POSITIVE reading when testing!
Here's what it says:
Ammo lock doesn't remove ammonia. In converts ammonia to a non-toxic form. So test kits will still show positive for ammonia. A positive ammonia test after 7 days may indicate overfeeding or overstocking. The biological filter of the aquarium will consume the non-toxic form of ammonia, converting it first to nitrite than to nitrate.
Maybe this is why Ricki looks so much better but I am still getting high readings with the drop kit. I've already committed to keeping zeolite in the HOBs, but how am I supposed to get an accurate reading of the harmful ammonia if Ammo Lock gives false positives? Maybe that ammonia meter I bought and then threw away after a week because it kept saying there was no ammonia... maybe the meter wasn't defective after all. Crap. Now what?
--Roc
So I just read the information on the bottle for Ammo Lock - it removes the harmful ammonia but will still cause a FALSE POSITIVE reading when testing!
Here's what it says:
Ammo lock doesn't remove ammonia. In converts ammonia to a non-toxic form. So test kits will still show positive for ammonia. A positive ammonia test after 7 days may indicate overfeeding or overstocking. The biological filter of the aquarium will consume the non-toxic form of ammonia, converting it first to nitrite than to nitrate.
Maybe this is why Ricki looks so much better but I am still getting high readings with the drop kit. I've already committed to keeping zeolite in the HOBs, but how am I supposed to get an accurate reading of the harmful ammonia if Ammo Lock gives false positives? Maybe that ammonia meter I bought and then threw away after a week because it kept saying there was no ammonia... maybe the meter wasn't defective after all. Crap. Now what?
--Roc
Yours is a complicated issue with the disease and tap water params, but if you could do a big water change with AmQuel+ (for the ammonia in the tap) and forgo the Ammo-Lock and zeolite; then test the water afterwards.
However, it seems you're in a very delicate balance with your water conditions, and I wouldn't suggest doing anything that will cause a cataclysmic cycle crash. Hopefully someone else will have more educated advice.
However, it seems you're in a very delicate balance with your water conditions, and I wouldn't suggest doing anything that will cause a cataclysmic cycle crash. Hopefully someone else will have more educated advice.
i have ammonia in my tap water too which is making it hard because most of my tanks arent cycled yet. i have had good luck with amquel+ to keep my water from becoming dangerous to my fish. my tests still show positive for ammonia so i know my bacteria hasnt grown completely yet but with amquel in the water, it makes it safer for the fish (i'm still religiously changing water too). when i originally discovered the ammonia levels in my water, someone gave me THIS LINK to read about prime which is very similar to amquel+ and ammo-lock. maybe this will help?
me and my fishies are all rooting for you and your gang!
edit for spelling (doh!)
me and my fishies are all rooting for you and your gang!
edit for spelling (doh!)
I have done "big" water changes, do so every weekend as a matter of fact. I drain the tank until there is barely enough water for the fish to move around in, I figure at least 75%.
And I treat the water with Stress Coat which removes chlorine, chloramines, and ammonia from the tap.
I think the real problem may be the Ammo Lock after all.
I will continue with the zeolite and ammo chips and stop using the Ammo Lock and see what readings I get after a few days. On Sunday, I'll do another 75% change and take readings then.
I do have a bottle of Prime which I will probably put to use this weekend.
--Roc
And I treat the water with Stress Coat which removes chlorine, chloramines, and ammonia from the tap.
I think the real problem may be the Ammo Lock after all.
I will continue with the zeolite and ammo chips and stop using the Ammo Lock and see what readings I get after a few days. On Sunday, I'll do another 75% change and take readings then.
I do have a bottle of Prime which I will probably put to use this weekend.
--Roc
Hi Rocmills - I have just read your whole thread and thought I would offer some thoughts.
Firstly I think it is imperative that you have a test kit which you can be sure is giving accurate results.
I'm not clear on which of your testers you are now using - can you confirm? As far as I know, Red Sea is a marine kit and not suitable for Freshwater testing.
I think it would be a good idea to test your tap water before each change, to determine what needs treating. Can you tell us the tap results with your next post?
Regarding Ammo-Lock - it can bind up to 3ppm and as much as 6ppm with a double dose; the harmful ammonia is converted permanently into less harmful ammonium, whilst still leaving it available to your filter, unlike zeolite/ammo-chips. However, the test kit will read the total ammonia in your tank (free and bound) which is where the 'false positive' reading comes into play.
I think it would be good to decide on ONE product to condition your water, rather than using several ammonia/chlorine detoxifyers - that will keep things a little more simple.
Amquel binds ammonia permanently - whereas Prime holds only for 24 hours. It is up to you to decide which one you personally prefer, but I would say that Prime is good in that it does not affect an accurate reading. Amquel with a salycilate kit like API is fine, too. Stress coat as well would be unnecessary.
If your tap tests regularly for low KH, I would order Buff it Up from Rick at the GFC; many members here say it is the best and most stable buffer they have found.
At some point, I guess you will have to scale down your zeolite/ammo chips to help strengthen the cycle again.
Anyway, I think some tap results will be very helpful is turning this whole thing around - let us know when you can.
Firstly I think it is imperative that you have a test kit which you can be sure is giving accurate results.
I'm not clear on which of your testers you are now using - can you confirm? As far as I know, Red Sea is a marine kit and not suitable for Freshwater testing.
I think it would be a good idea to test your tap water before each change, to determine what needs treating. Can you tell us the tap results with your next post?
Regarding Ammo-Lock - it can bind up to 3ppm and as much as 6ppm with a double dose; the harmful ammonia is converted permanently into less harmful ammonium, whilst still leaving it available to your filter, unlike zeolite/ammo-chips. However, the test kit will read the total ammonia in your tank (free and bound) which is where the 'false positive' reading comes into play.
I think it would be good to decide on ONE product to condition your water, rather than using several ammonia/chlorine detoxifyers - that will keep things a little more simple.
Amquel binds ammonia permanently - whereas Prime holds only for 24 hours. It is up to you to decide which one you personally prefer, but I would say that Prime is good in that it does not affect an accurate reading. Amquel with a salycilate kit like API is fine, too. Stress coat as well would be unnecessary.
If your tap tests regularly for low KH, I would order Buff it Up from Rick at the GFC; many members here say it is the best and most stable buffer they have found.
At some point, I guess you will have to scale down your zeolite/ammo chips to help strengthen the cycle again.
Anyway, I think some tap results will be very helpful is turning this whole thing around - let us know when you can.
Pixie!
Good to hear from you again, and thanks for dropping by.
Actually, Red Sea (like many other manufacturers) makes both fresh and salt water test kits; I have Fresh Lab... but since I was questioning its results, I bought an API kit last week and gave up on the Fresh Lab.
Here are my readings as of just a few minutes ago.
TAP:
pH: 7.6
Amm.: 0
Nitrate: 5
Nitrite: 0
GH: 180
KH: 240
TANK:
pH: 6.4
Amm.: .25 -.50
Nitrate: 40
Nitrite: 0
GH: 180
KH: 40
So I still need to bring the pH up a wee bit along with the KH; the nitrite/nitrate cycle needs to kick in... I think the ammonia is under control, or getting there.
I have both Amquel and Prime, though I haven't used them yet... or not until just now, I did add some Amquel and some pH regulator after I did the tests above. 75% water change scheduled for Sunday, maybe Saturday if I can manage it.
--Roc
Good to hear from you again, and thanks for dropping by.
Actually, Red Sea (like many other manufacturers) makes both fresh and salt water test kits; I have Fresh Lab... but since I was questioning its results, I bought an API kit last week and gave up on the Fresh Lab.
Here are my readings as of just a few minutes ago.
TAP:
pH: 7.6
Amm.: 0
Nitrate: 5
Nitrite: 0
GH: 180
KH: 240
TANK:
pH: 6.4
Amm.: .25 -.50
Nitrate: 40
Nitrite: 0
GH: 180
KH: 40
So I still need to bring the pH up a wee bit along with the KH; the nitrite/nitrate cycle needs to kick in... I think the ammonia is under control, or getting there.
I have both Amquel and Prime, though I haven't used them yet... or not until just now, I did add some Amquel and some pH regulator after I did the tests above. 75% water change scheduled for Sunday, maybe Saturday if I can manage it.
--Roc
TAP:
pH: 7.6
Amm.: 0
Nitrate: 5
Nitrite: 0
GH: 180
KH: 240
TANK:
pH: 6.4
Amm.: .25 -.50
Nitrate: 40
Nitrite: 0
GH: 180
KH: 40
Well, this is something of a puzzle! I was expecting a very low KH to be the cause of your PH problems, but instead, at 240 it should be more than high enough to hold things steady. I guess it is possible your strips may not be 100% if they are old or have been exposed to any degree of humidity (it's just the KH and GH which are strip tests, right?).
But if they are reasonably correct, the PH/KH should not be sliding downwards.
A couple of possibilities:
Amquel has sometimes been known to drop the PH (Amquel Plus doesn't have this propensity); I also wonder if several detox conditioners used at once could undermine the PH? Not sure if I'm entertaining a false notion here, but with several ammonia fixers I'm thinking it may be a possibility.
Do you have any bogwood? This acidifies the water.
Do you have a CO2 unit for plants in the tank? Carbon di-oxide when dissolved in water lowers the PH.
One other thing you could try with the tap water is to fill a jug; test it immediately and then again 12 and 24 hours later. If you see a drop, it may be that the buffers the w/board are using are not stable.
BTW - I did a little reading for you about the Red Sea kits; they have received quite a few bad reviews for their unreliability, so it's good you have bought the API.
For now you'll have to keep a very close eye on the PH/KH to prevent any further drops. Daily, partial changes may be more steady on the PH than 3 daily large change-outs. Try the jug test and let us know the results.
pH: 7.6
Amm.: 0
Nitrate: 5
Nitrite: 0
GH: 180
KH: 240
TANK:
pH: 6.4
Amm.: .25 -.50
Nitrate: 40
Nitrite: 0
GH: 180
KH: 40
Well, this is something of a puzzle! I was expecting a very low KH to be the cause of your PH problems, but instead, at 240 it should be more than high enough to hold things steady. I guess it is possible your strips may not be 100% if they are old or have been exposed to any degree of humidity (it's just the KH and GH which are strip tests, right?).
But if they are reasonably correct, the PH/KH should not be sliding downwards.
A couple of possibilities:
Amquel has sometimes been known to drop the PH (Amquel Plus doesn't have this propensity); I also wonder if several detox conditioners used at once could undermine the PH? Not sure if I'm entertaining a false notion here, but with several ammonia fixers I'm thinking it may be a possibility.
Do you have any bogwood? This acidifies the water.
Do you have a CO2 unit for plants in the tank? Carbon di-oxide when dissolved in water lowers the PH.
One other thing you could try with the tap water is to fill a jug; test it immediately and then again 12 and 24 hours later. If you see a drop, it may be that the buffers the w/board are using are not stable.
BTW - I did a little reading for you about the Red Sea kits; they have received quite a few bad reviews for their unreliability, so it's good you have bought the API.
For now you'll have to keep a very close eye on the PH/KH to prevent any further drops. Daily, partial changes may be more steady on the PH than 3 daily large change-outs. Try the jug test and let us know the results.
Pixie,
Well, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one boggled by this situation.
I figured the horrible ammonia spike, which probably went unnoticed and unattended for a week or more, was responsible for the overall cycle crash in the tank. Now I figure I'm just struggling to re-establish the cycle and get things back to where they were. On the other hand, if I'm wrong about what caused the crash then I am stumped about 1) how to fix it; and 2) how to prevent it from happening again. Of course, I don't know what caused the ammonia spike or how to prevent that from happening again, either. Sigh.
To address some of your questions...
Bogwood? I don't think so. We have a bit of driftwood that has been the tank for about a year now, maybe even longer. No CO2 units. We have lots of bubbles for aeration, 1 ornament which has been in the tank as long as the fish have, and one rock which has also been in the tank as long as the fish have. That's it. There isn't room in the tank for us to be adding stuff, so we don't. The only new thing that has gone in the water recently was one of those veggie clips that looks like a cartoon fish with a suction cup.
So when I do the big water change on Sunday, what do you recommend I treat the water with? I have Prime, Amquel, and Stress Coat - all of which claim to do essentially the same thing. I have no personal preference, but if you favor one over the other than I am willing to give that a shot. If you think I should go out and buy some Amquel Plus, I can do that too. I'll look on my shelves, see what else I've picked up in the last couple of weeks... I think I do have a couple bottles of other stuff that is supposed to jump start a tank cycle, but aren't tap water conditioners.
Am I okay using the powdered pH Neutralizer, or should I give that a rest?
--Roc
Well, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one boggled by this situation.
I figured the horrible ammonia spike, which probably went unnoticed and unattended for a week or more, was responsible for the overall cycle crash in the tank. Now I figure I'm just struggling to re-establish the cycle and get things back to where they were. On the other hand, if I'm wrong about what caused the crash then I am stumped about 1) how to fix it; and 2) how to prevent it from happening again. Of course, I don't know what caused the ammonia spike or how to prevent that from happening again, either. Sigh.
To address some of your questions...
Bogwood? I don't think so. We have a bit of driftwood that has been the tank for about a year now, maybe even longer. No CO2 units. We have lots of bubbles for aeration, 1 ornament which has been in the tank as long as the fish have, and one rock which has also been in the tank as long as the fish have. That's it. There isn't room in the tank for us to be adding stuff, so we don't. The only new thing that has gone in the water recently was one of those veggie clips that looks like a cartoon fish with a suction cup.
So when I do the big water change on Sunday, what do you recommend I treat the water with? I have Prime, Amquel, and Stress Coat - all of which claim to do essentially the same thing. I have no personal preference, but if you favor one over the other than I am willing to give that a shot. If you think I should go out and buy some Amquel Plus, I can do that too. I'll look on my shelves, see what else I've picked up in the last couple of weeks... I think I do have a couple bottles of other stuff that is supposed to jump start a tank cycle, but aren't tap water conditioners.
Am I okay using the powdered pH Neutralizer, or should I give that a rest?
--Roc
Okay, here is my current stock of water conditioners and treatments. I don't use them all at once, though I have been known to use 2 at a time.
API Stress Coat+
API Ammo Lock
Seachem's Clarity (to clear up cloudy water)
Cycle
Neutral Regulator (for controlling low and high pH)
Tetra EasyBalance with Nitraban
Prime
Amquel+
Everything but the Clarity was purchased in the last few weeks.
Then there are the left over meds from my mouth rot thread, but I'll be chucking most of those out as they are several months old now and I don't think I need them anymore. I'd rather buy fresh if the need arises again. And a bottle of potasium permawhathaveyou for emergency disinfection.
--Roc
API Stress Coat+
API Ammo Lock
Seachem's Clarity (to clear up cloudy water)
Cycle
Neutral Regulator (for controlling low and high pH)
Tetra EasyBalance with Nitraban
Prime
Amquel+
Everything but the Clarity was purchased in the last few weeks.
Then there are the left over meds from my mouth rot thread, but I'll be chucking most of those out as they are several months old now and I don't think I need them anymore. I'd rather buy fresh if the need arises again. And a bottle of potasium permawhathaveyou for emergency disinfection.
--Roc
Hang on - powdered neutralizer? Which product exactly is that? ie which brand and what do the details say? PH neutral is 7.0 - so if your tap is 7.6, a neutralizer will soften and lower the PH. This is the opposite of a buffer which hardens water and raises PH. Can you clarify this?
Just to be clear - an ammonia spike is normally the result of a PH crash rather than the cause of it. The most common scenario is that nitrate (acid) climbs high and exhausts the KH (alkalinity) capacity of the water which then causes the PH to slide downwards into acidity; the result is that the beneficial bacteria are killed off by the acidic conditions and in their absence the ammonia and nitrites begin to spike.
The other way a crash can happen is through running meds which kill off your BB's.
I think the jug test with the tap water is a good first step toward understanding what's going on with your water source. See if the numbers remain the same after the jug has been sitting for 24 hours. It isn't scoring for ammonia which is good, but we have to understand what is causing the KH and PH to drop. After the jug, I would begin testing the tap every day for the coming week, to see if there is any fluctuation in the PH etc.
You forgot to tell us when and how much the last w/change was - I'm trying to guage how fast the PH is dropping.
I'd leave the Amquel and Ammo-lock for now and just try Prime for your next change.
With all that zeolite in the tank there shouldn't be any amm showing - so perhaps your large fish have exhausted the zeolite OR..... are you using any salt? That will cause the zeolite to drop its ammonia back into the tank.
Just to be clear - an ammonia spike is normally the result of a PH crash rather than the cause of it. The most common scenario is that nitrate (acid) climbs high and exhausts the KH (alkalinity) capacity of the water which then causes the PH to slide downwards into acidity; the result is that the beneficial bacteria are killed off by the acidic conditions and in their absence the ammonia and nitrites begin to spike.
The other way a crash can happen is through running meds which kill off your BB's.
I think the jug test with the tap water is a good first step toward understanding what's going on with your water source. See if the numbers remain the same after the jug has been sitting for 24 hours. It isn't scoring for ammonia which is good, but we have to understand what is causing the KH and PH to drop. After the jug, I would begin testing the tap every day for the coming week, to see if there is any fluctuation in the PH etc.
You forgot to tell us when and how much the last w/change was - I'm trying to guage how fast the PH is dropping.
I'd leave the Amquel and Ammo-lock for now and just try Prime for your next change.
With all that zeolite in the tank there shouldn't be any amm showing - so perhaps your large fish have exhausted the zeolite OR..... are you using any salt? That will cause the zeolite to drop its ammonia back into the tank.
Well, EXPLETIVE!
Yes, I have been salting the water at 1 teaspoon per gallon after the Sunday water change. I thought that was helping! <grumble grumble> <bangs head against desk>
Okay... the pH Neutralizer <Neutral Regulator (for controlling low and high pH)> states that it will either raise low pH or lower high pH ... it is supposed to give me a pH of 7.0 period. I've added it to the tank twice now (once yesterday and once a week or so ago). I got it when I was worried that low pH was giving Luc grief in the hospital tank.
Oh, before I forget, I ordered that Buff It Up from GFC along with a bottle of their super water conditioner and some after-illness food for Luc who is still in the hospital tank and lost a little weight during his mouth rot battle.
Now, you say the pH crash is what started the ammonia problem, not the other way around? That's good to know... in that case, I definitely think it was the transition in city water source that caused the problem. Also, have not had any meds in the water of this tank, so that can't be what started this off. Mystery solved on that front, now I just have to remember that they will switch water sources again after summer has ended.
Last water change was 6 days ago, 75%, which I will do again either today or tomorrow.
Next water change will be with Prime only, no other treatments or additives - NO SALT! I will also dump the bags of zeolite I have in there now and will start using the Ammo Chips I bought earlier this week since they are fresh and new. And you've inadvertently answered my question about the Ammo Chips - the carton says they are "rechargable" by soaking them in a tub of salt water... so now it makes sense to me and I understand why the problem has continued so long. Shot myself in the foot, so to speak, by salting the water. <bangs head on desk one more time for good measure>
Does it have to be a jug of water, or will a small bottle suffice?
Going downstairs now to apologize to the fish for putting them through this and offer some peas...
Thank you, Pixie, for all your help!
--Roc
Yes, I have been salting the water at 1 teaspoon per gallon after the Sunday water change. I thought that was helping! <grumble grumble> <bangs head against desk>
Okay... the pH Neutralizer <Neutral Regulator (for controlling low and high pH)> states that it will either raise low pH or lower high pH ... it is supposed to give me a pH of 7.0 period. I've added it to the tank twice now (once yesterday and once a week or so ago). I got it when I was worried that low pH was giving Luc grief in the hospital tank.
Oh, before I forget, I ordered that Buff It Up from GFC along with a bottle of their super water conditioner and some after-illness food for Luc who is still in the hospital tank and lost a little weight during his mouth rot battle.
Now, you say the pH crash is what started the ammonia problem, not the other way around? That's good to know... in that case, I definitely think it was the transition in city water source that caused the problem. Also, have not had any meds in the water of this tank, so that can't be what started this off. Mystery solved on that front, now I just have to remember that they will switch water sources again after summer has ended.
Last water change was 6 days ago, 75%, which I will do again either today or tomorrow.
Next water change will be with Prime only, no other treatments or additives - NO SALT! I will also dump the bags of zeolite I have in there now and will start using the Ammo Chips I bought earlier this week since they are fresh and new. And you've inadvertently answered my question about the Ammo Chips - the carton says they are "rechargable" by soaking them in a tub of salt water... so now it makes sense to me and I understand why the problem has continued so long. Shot myself in the foot, so to speak, by salting the water. <bangs head on desk one more time for good measure>
Does it have to be a jug of water, or will a small bottle suffice?
Going downstairs now to apologize to the fish for putting them through this and offer some peas...
Thank you, Pixie, for all your help!
--Roc
QUOTE(rocmills @ May 31 2008, 06:43 PM)
Yes, I have been salting the water at 1 teaspoon per gallon after the Sunday water change.
So, that explains your ammonia problem.
Okay... the pH Neutralizer <Neutral Regulator (for controlling low and high pH)> states that it will either raise low pH or lower high pH ... it is supposed to give me a pH of 7.0 period.
So for future reference, as your tap is 7.6, the best solution would have been to make a very large change, followed by daily partial changes to keep the PH steady. A PH of 7.0 is not helpful to your situation as it holds less alkalinity than your tap.
Oh, before I forget, I ordered that Buff It Up from GFC along with a bottle of their super water conditioner and some after-illness food for Luc who is still in the hospital tank and lost a little weight during his mouth rot battle.
Very good move. BTW - which mouth-rot med did you run?
Now, you say the pH crash is what started the ammonia problem, not the other way around?
An ammonia spike in an established tank is a sign of filter failure; usually the result of BB die-off either caused by PH crash, or toxic meds; or the rapid growth or introduction of new fish, which deliver more ammonia than the BB colony can keep up with.
Remember - ammonia is alkaline, so IT cannot cause a PH crash. As it's converted through nitrite, its end product, nitrate, is acidic, which is why very high nitrates and/or too long between water changes can crash the PH.
Last water change was 6 days ago, 75%, which I will do again either today or tomorrow.
Like I said before - when you are having cycling or PH problems, daily changes are preferable to 6/7 w/c's with adjusters and other chemicals thrown in as management. If the tank was reading for ammonia and nitrite yesterday, it will be even higher by today/tomorrow, so really shouldn't wait..
You currently have 3 gfish and 2 plecs in your 55g so the amm output from all of them is very high. The bacterial count of harmful bugs will also rise quickly in this space. It may well be that they are starting to need more water and more filtration
Next water change will be with Prime only, no other treatments or additives - NO SALT!
Great! Test the water daily thereafter to chart the rise in amm or any change in PH.
I will also dump the bags of zeolite I have in there now and will start using the Ammo Chips I bought earlier this week since they are fresh and new.
If you are not able to do daily changes at the moment, I guess the A-Chips will be the next best thing, but remember that they will not be helping your cycle ; they suck up the ammonia needed by the BB's for sustenance. At some point you are going to need to re-cycle. You should let your water results dictate the amount and regularity of the w/c's.
And you've inadvertently answered my question about the Ammo Chips - the carton says they are "rechargable" by soaking them in a tub of salt water... so now it makes sense to me and I understand why the problem has continued so long. Shot myself in the foot, so to speak, by salting the water. <bangs head on desk one more time for good measure>
Well, these things happen - I'm just glad we got to the bottom of it, as I knew there had to be a logical answer.
Does it have to be a jug of water, or will a small bottle suffice?
Not a bottle with a lid - a bowl, a large mug or glass. You want it open to the air and to see if the PH is changing by itself.
Apart from this, your two jobs are; testing the tank every day and testing the tap PH every day to monitor any PH swings in the source water.
Going downstairs now to apologize to the fish for putting them through this and offer some peas...
Thank you, Pixie, for all your help!
My pleasure, hun
--Roc
So, that explains your ammonia problem.
Okay... the pH Neutralizer <Neutral Regulator (for controlling low and high pH)> states that it will either raise low pH or lower high pH ... it is supposed to give me a pH of 7.0 period.
So for future reference, as your tap is 7.6, the best solution would have been to make a very large change, followed by daily partial changes to keep the PH steady. A PH of 7.0 is not helpful to your situation as it holds less alkalinity than your tap.
Oh, before I forget, I ordered that Buff It Up from GFC along with a bottle of their super water conditioner and some after-illness food for Luc who is still in the hospital tank and lost a little weight during his mouth rot battle.
Very good move. BTW - which mouth-rot med did you run?
Now, you say the pH crash is what started the ammonia problem, not the other way around?
An ammonia spike in an established tank is a sign of filter failure; usually the result of BB die-off either caused by PH crash, or toxic meds; or the rapid growth or introduction of new fish, which deliver more ammonia than the BB colony can keep up with.
Remember - ammonia is alkaline, so IT cannot cause a PH crash. As it's converted through nitrite, its end product, nitrate, is acidic, which is why very high nitrates and/or too long between water changes can crash the PH.
Last water change was 6 days ago, 75%, which I will do again either today or tomorrow.
Like I said before - when you are having cycling or PH problems, daily changes are preferable to 6/7 w/c's with adjusters and other chemicals thrown in as management. If the tank was reading for ammonia and nitrite yesterday, it will be even higher by today/tomorrow, so really shouldn't wait..
You currently have 3 gfish and 2 plecs in your 55g so the amm output from all of them is very high. The bacterial count of harmful bugs will also rise quickly in this space. It may well be that they are starting to need more water and more filtration
Next water change will be with Prime only, no other treatments or additives - NO SALT!
Great! Test the water daily thereafter to chart the rise in amm or any change in PH.
I will also dump the bags of zeolite I have in there now and will start using the Ammo Chips I bought earlier this week since they are fresh and new.
If you are not able to do daily changes at the moment, I guess the A-Chips will be the next best thing, but remember that they will not be helping your cycle ; they suck up the ammonia needed by the BB's for sustenance. At some point you are going to need to re-cycle. You should let your water results dictate the amount and regularity of the w/c's.
And you've inadvertently answered my question about the Ammo Chips - the carton says they are "rechargable" by soaking them in a tub of salt water... so now it makes sense to me and I understand why the problem has continued so long. Shot myself in the foot, so to speak, by salting the water. <bangs head on desk one more time for good measure>
Well, these things happen - I'm just glad we got to the bottom of it, as I knew there had to be a logical answer.
Does it have to be a jug of water, or will a small bottle suffice?
Not a bottle with a lid - a bowl, a large mug or glass. You want it open to the air and to see if the PH is changing by itself.
Apart from this, your two jobs are; testing the tank every day and testing the tap PH every day to monitor any PH swings in the source water.
Going downstairs now to apologize to the fish for putting them through this and offer some peas...
Thank you, Pixie, for all your help!
My pleasure, hun
--Roc
BTW - which mouth-rot med did you run?
The better question would be which ones didn't I run. Seriously, with Trinket's help we tried dern near everything on the market... but what finally did the trick was Binox. If Luc keeps up the way he has in the last couple of weeks, we may finally be able to put him back in the main tank. He's been in isolation since New Year's Eve (the thread is Battling Mouth Rot).
So, I've set out a bottle of water to perform daily pH tests on, and I will also test tap and tank daily for the next week.
As for additional filtration, that was the very first thing we did when the ammonia spiked. In the 55 gallon tank, we are now filtering 955 gallons per hour. I couldn't get another filter in there if I wanted to, unless I removed the top (not an option, these guys like to jump) and added HOBs to the front of the tank.
So you're saying I shouldn't bother with the Ammo Chips? If I do a 75% change and ammonia goes down, I should just keep an eye on the ammonia levels and do water changes accordingly? I removed the zeolite this morning, and was getting ready to add the Ammo Chips - but if that is going to inhibit the cycle, I'd rather do more water changes even if it is a bit tedious.
I know these guys need a bigger tank, actually what they need is a pond, but a larger tank isn't in the budget at the moment. I've got my eye on a couple of tank stores in town, hoping for a sale or maybe a trade in. I found one tank that is significantly larger than our existing tank, but has about the same width so we could keep it in the same place the current tank is located. I worry about the added height, though, as this may interfere with the HOBs.
--Roc
The better question would be which ones didn't I run. Seriously, with Trinket's help we tried dern near everything on the market... but what finally did the trick was Binox. If Luc keeps up the way he has in the last couple of weeks, we may finally be able to put him back in the main tank. He's been in isolation since New Year's Eve (the thread is Battling Mouth Rot).
So, I've set out a bottle of water to perform daily pH tests on, and I will also test tap and tank daily for the next week.
As for additional filtration, that was the very first thing we did when the ammonia spiked. In the 55 gallon tank, we are now filtering 955 gallons per hour. I couldn't get another filter in there if I wanted to, unless I removed the top (not an option, these guys like to jump) and added HOBs to the front of the tank.
So you're saying I shouldn't bother with the Ammo Chips? If I do a 75% change and ammonia goes down, I should just keep an eye on the ammonia levels and do water changes accordingly? I removed the zeolite this morning, and was getting ready to add the Ammo Chips - but if that is going to inhibit the cycle, I'd rather do more water changes even if it is a bit tedious.
I know these guys need a bigger tank, actually what they need is a pond, but a larger tank isn't in the budget at the moment. I've got my eye on a couple of tank stores in town, hoping for a sale or maybe a trade in. I found one tank that is significantly larger than our existing tank, but has about the same width so we could keep it in the same place the current tank is located. I worry about the added height, though, as this may interfere with the HOBs.
--Roc
Saturday pH readings:
Main tank: 6.0
Tap: 7.6
Bottle: 7.6
Hospital tank: 7.0
So it looks like the regulator I used in the hospital tank is working as it seems to be holding steady at 7.0
Will test and post results daily.
--Roc
Main tank: 6.0
Tap: 7.6
Bottle: 7.6
Hospital tank: 7.0
So it looks like the regulator I used in the hospital tank is working as it seems to be holding steady at 7.0
Will test and post results daily.
--Roc
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.