I lost my little red Oranda last week. We thought Amadeus was suffering from high ammonia levels in a cycling tank, and possibly contamination from a construction project. Now my other Oranda is dying, and this tank isn't even in the same city! Gustav has been floating around a little off-kilter the past few days, and swimming with his nose towards the bottom off and on. Today I came home for lunch to find him floating at the surface on his side. My water parameters seem to be perfect, and the other fish in the tank are fine and happy. I feel totally helpless.

20 gallon tank w/3 fancies, ~2", ~2", ~3", established well over a year
Penguin filter doing a great job
Ammo 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10ppm
Tank pH 8.2, Tap pH 7.4
25% wc weekly, due today or tomorrow
Amquel+ and aquarium salt 0.5 tsp/gal
Melafix daily for different fish's fins
Eating Hikari Oranda pellets every other day
No marks or unusual appearance that I can see

How long have you been using the MelaFix?
Personally right now I would do a water change and see if that will perk them up a bit

I'll do a water change when I get home tonight and hope for the best, but I don't think Gustav is going to make it that long.

I've been using the Melafix for a almost a week now, after giving them a break from it with some water changes in between.

I don't think it's the Melafix, though. Amadeus got sick in the 55 gallon tank, was moved to the 20 gallon tank, continued to decline and then died. There was no Melafix in the 55 gallon. Now Gustav is dying, and he hasn't been in the 55 gallon in 3 weeks. Sergei, my Ryukin, was in the 55 gallon and I moved him to the 20 gallon at the same time as Gustav. Sergei seems to be fine. Johann the fantail has been in the 20 gallon the entire time and is also fine.

Is there something that particularly plagues Orandas?

Lost this one too. I hope my other 2 fish will be ok...

oh no. so sad to hear! keep trying with your other ones -- are they showing any signs of distress?

My Ryukin has been clamping his dorsal fin. I guess I'll do another water change after work and see if that helps. It's hard to watch them die when I don't know what's wrong.

geez. that's no good.

could you maybe try to describe your set-up a bit more in detail? (what size filter, type of filter media, changing/cleaning routine details, what sort of rocks/ornaments, etc. you have...)

there might be something wrong that isn't obvious.

i'm not a great advice-giver as i'm still learning a lot myself, but i would continue to do large temp-matched WCs and perhaps increase your salting?

My setup isn't ideal because I'm trying to cycle my 55 gallon tank so I can move everybody over. I have a penguin filter doing 150 gph on a 20 gallon tank, and I test the water at least every 2 days, mostly every day. I've got some fluval solid media cylinders and some sponges in the filter, which also has a biowheel. The filter has been established for over a year. I just added a cartridge with carbon to remove the Melafix from the water to see if that helps. There is also a bubble bar that is turned on during the day, but the pump is off at night because it is so loud.

There are two little plastic aquarium plants and a pirate ship wheel that is solid not hollow. There is maybe a half cup of gravel left now, I've been removing it to help keep the tank clean. There is also a small goldfish bowl laying on it's side submerged in the tank to provide a quiet place for the fish to rest. The bowl gets moved around and vacuumed out when I do water changes. My large fantail has been in this tank over a year now.

I usually do a 25% wc once a week to keep the nitrates down. I use a siphon and suck any poo I see off the bottom. I use Amquel+ and salt and usually let the water sit out overnight if I can.

Is there anything obvious here that could be killing my fish?

I see a slight problem hun, when you move gravel out of a tank, sometimes the bacteria in the gravel can be toxic to the fish. When moving it out of the tank, do a water change and make sure the filter pads are cleaned out before then make sure you clean them off in a few hours after wards.

Have you ever treated your fish for flukes, Pinkspore?

I was going to ask the same thing as Pixie, -has your fish been 'yawning' more often recently, or flashing? Just wondering, it could be something that was stirred up from the gravel, but also it could be a parasite or bacteria that was already in your system that was lying dormant and is starting to multiply now the spring weather (I'm sorry, I'm making the assumption that you're in America or somewhere where it is spring, apologies if this isn't the case) is coming..

No, I've never treated my fish for flukes. What do the symptoms look like? How do you treat it?

We live in southern California, where our daily high temperatures have been fluctuating by 30 degrees. 67 today, 97 on Sunday. My tank is unheated so it's varying along with the rest of the house. Could the big jumps and drops in temperature be a problem?

My Ryukin is getting worse! I did another 25% water change today and he's still getting weaker. He's drifting around the top of the tank with his fins clamped and occasionally rolling onto his side. I still don't know what's wrong or how to fix it and now he's going to die too.

If I lose my big fantail too I'm just going to give up fishkeeping.

even you cycle your 55 dont move all yoru fish over at the same time
i moved from a 37 to a 75 and what i did was i moved the two smallest one toghter for two days
from day 3 i moved in the bigger boy
and check the water on day 4 which was still in range i moved in 1 more
day 5 water is still fine so i moved in the the last two toghter and then then 25 percent water change the next day

i hope all your fish will make it to see their new home never give up cuz i have my lipstick went through dropsy a ucler in the head
and some other infection now he is my biggest fish

At the rate I'm going none of my fish are going to live to see the big tank. I started with 4 fish, two dead, one dying, one still apparently healthy. The fantail is very dear to me and I'm so scared I'll lose him too. I was doing way better when I was neglecting my fish and had never tested water before, none of them died then. I hoped this forum would be really helpful but I think I'm about to lose my third fish with no real answers or solutions.

My water parameters are perfect, the fish look healthy, why are they dying?!! Can't anyone help me?!

OK - let's go with flukes.
Unless there are any other signs which would be indicators of other infections (red streaks, red spots, white bumps/threads or anything else) I think this is the most likely cause of illness. The water seems fine and you are making regular changes.
Flukes can creep up on a fish or tank over time and when the load is heavy they gradually weaken the fish in the way you describe. They overburden the gills causing the fish to bleed internally and they often then fall prey to internal infections.

Here's what I would do:

Order PraziPro from Rick at the Goldfish Connection. He will overnight meds when necessary. As your fish seems quite listless now and considering you have lost others I would also order MetroMeds or Medigold - which is medicated food. If you are unsure, you could speak to him and ask which of the two would be better under the circumstances.
I am so sorry you've been struggling for an answer and not heard back quickly enough. Usually help is very fast here but every now and again we have times when people are busy and off the board and help comes later rather than sooner.
I hope you can catch your fish in time. If not, do not give up. Flukes is one of the biggest killers of fish and is often a silent killer because symptoms can easily be missed or confused with other problems. For this reason, we recommend treating all new fish for flukes as a preventive measure. Prazi is harmless to fish and filters and so there is no risk - only benefits.
Let us know how things go

I ordered the meds from Goldfish Connection, but I couldn't afford the overnight shipping. I'll get them on Monday, not soon enough to save my Ryukin.

If you think the situation is really desperate you could buy Parasite Clear Tabs (Jungle) from a local lfs, if they carry them. These fizzy tabs contain Prazi, Acriflavine and a small amount of Metronidazole (same as in Metromeds) The amount of Prazi is far smaller than the GFC meds but it may be just enough to save your fish from going over the edge whilst waiting until Monday.
There may already be too much gill damage - it's just very hard to know without a scrape and scope and gill exam- but it's worth a shot.

I just tried the Parasite Clear tabs, but he's been going downhill really fast today. I honestly don't expect him to be alive when I go home for lunch.

I wish I had known to try treating for flukes earlier. I guess perfect water quality doesn't fix everything.

Nope - water won't fix parasites unfortunately
Fingers crossed.

It's kind of depressing, I first posted over a week ago about my fish dying in perfect water quality, and only yesterday did anyone suggest I could do something other than keep the water quality excellent.

If Sergei dies I'm going to need to figure out what to do with my precious Johann. He bottom sits and eats poorly when he's all alone.

Hi Pinkspore -- I am sorry to hear that you're depressed and that your fish still aren't doing well. You've been having a rough time of it lately.

I think people probably focused initially on the water quality aspect of your situation because you have posted a number of topics recently related to trouble that you are having with pH stability, ammonia and nitrates in your tap water, ammonia burns on your fish, the 55 gallon tank that won't cycle, etc.

I certainly can understand your frustration and sadness as you stand by and watch your precious fishies' health fail, but I don't think that anyone was negligent in their advice to you. All the wonderful moderators here work on a totally voluntary basis and I think that they do a pretty amazing job diagnosing problems and saving fish with their advice. Sometimes there are lots of people around to help and other times moderators are busy with other aspects of their lives. Sometimes diagnoses are quick and other times lots of detective work is required.

I hope that you'll stick around Koko's and I hope that you are able to save your remaining fish.

I understand the confusion with my water issues in my other tank, but I moved all the fish into my established tank and I still was told to just keep my water perfect for the most part. It's incredibly frustrating to ask for help with fish dying in perfect water and continually be told to keep the water perfect while they die.

My Ryukin is almost gone and my fantail is getting all wobbly now. I don't think I want to keep fish anymore.

I'm sorry you have found our help frustrating, we have helped you to the best of our abilities. Yes it is frustrating to have to wait while detective work is done to determine what is going on with your fish, it is difficult for us to work out what is going on when we don't have all the information we need about your tank details. You say that you started posting a week ago, the first post in this topic was two days ago? I can only go by what you have stated in your first post on this thread, -If you have other posts up about your sick fish, I suggest you stick to posting on one thread only so that if someone comes along to help you they can get the full story.

We have now suggested you start treating for flukes, -this is the best suggestion we can give you over the internet from the information you have given us, as we are not actually present, cannot see your fish, do microscopy on skin/gill scrapes etc. this still mightn't be the right suggestion, but it is the best we can do as a service over the internet.

You must understand that we can only help you on the information you give us. and I think a one day turn-around with a possible diagnosis on one thread is pretty good considering we are all volunteers. We are here to help you but we cannot solve your fishes problems for you.

I'm sorry to hear that you're thinking on giving up on goldfish because of this. Please keep us up to date with your fish's details, how you're medicating them, we will try and help to the best of our abilities.

You mentioned that one of your fish bottom sits and eats poorly when he's alone, -Does he stop bottom sitting and eats normally when there are other fish in the tank? -I have never known a healthy goldfish bottom-sit and not eat. I really think there is something going on in your tank, but I am unable to say Acupunk mentioned that there's a whole lot of things going on with your situation that I don't know about, pH problems, ammonia burns, none of this has been mentioned in this thread, or even alluded to until now. There could be a multitude of things going on with your fish, but if you have had ammonia and cycle problems, this could be the long term effects of your fish being kept in toxic water. -Yes the water might be perfect now, but if the fish have been kept in less than ideal conditions previously then they are still being affected from that time of being kept in poor water. As I don't know the whole picture, I can only guess.

Ok, here's the whole story:

I started with a 20 gallon tank with a 2" common and a 3" fantail abandoned by my insane uncle when he moved. The fish lived for a week in a garage in an inch of black water before I found them. I had them for nearly a year before I started seriously investigating proper goldfish care and started testing their water. I also discovered that the common had been nipping the fantail's fins, finrot had set in, and his dorsal and tail fins were supposed to be much longer. I took the common to the lfs and treated the fantail, who went from swimming all over the place to sitting on the bottom in the corner.

I am getting married in 9 days. I was given a 55 gallon tank with filter and stand in December. Over a month ago I set it up at my fiance's apartment to cycle. We put one small Oranda from the lfs in, and a week later added another Oranda and a Ryukin. The ammonia in the 55 gallon was very high continually, usually 1ppm. The tap water here has chloramine in it. After a week or so, one Oranda got stuck in the filter intake, so I moved him to the 20 gallon at my house to recover with my finless fantail. Within a couple of days he was just fine, and the fantail perked up as soon as I introduced him.

We were doing 50% water changes daily in the 55 to try to keep the ammonia down with no effect. A week ago the Oranda in the 55 gallon got stuck in the filter. He was really weak and listless, drifting around the tank on his side or upside down. He got weaker and weaker and then died. Next the other Oranda got weaker and weaker and then died. Finally my Ryukin started acting weak and listless. I don't expect him to survive the night, he's floating at the top on his side and occasonally moving a fin or his gills. I think my fantail is going to be next, he started kind of drifting around now and then.

The water parameters in the 20 gallon tank have been great. No ammonia or nitrite. 5ppm or less nitrate, pH 8.2. I've been carefully doing 20% water changes almost every day, I didn't know what else to do to help my fish. Each one has looked beautiful in death, no marks or sores or anything. The dying Ryukin isn't even clamping his fins, just drifitng around and occasionally mustering the strength to swim to the front to beg for food. He eats when he can get to the food, but so did the other two and it didn't help them.

I never planned on having goldfish, but my fantail needed rescuing. Because of him I've learned so much about keeping goldfish, but apparently not enough.

"Over a month ago I set it up at my fiance's apartment to cycle. We put one small Oranda from the lfs in, and a week later added another Oranda and a Ryukin. The ammonia in the 55 gallon was very high continually, usually 1ppm. The tap water here has chloramine in it. After a week or so, one Oranda got stuck in the filter intake, so I moved him to the 20 gallon at my house to recover with my finless fantail. Within a couple of days he was just fine, and the fantail perked up as soon as I introduced him."

Well, now it is easier to see the path your problems have taken. Let's take for granted that all lfs fish generally have parasites or are carrying them. In a new uncycled tank just one fish is usually enough to handle whilst cycling; but after a week you added two more, thereby increasing the free ammonia, threefold. Without any established cycle to convert ammonia you would have needed massive daily changes to keep the parameters safe. (ie if your ammonia is 1ppm and you change 50% you will still be left with 0.50ppm) So, at this point your fish were under enormous stress which weakens their defences. This is when they become easy meat for parasites which can quickly overwhelm them. I think the combination of new tank syndrome and flukes is what has gone wrong for you. By moving your sick oranda in with the fantail I'm afraid you have moved his fluke load in, too. It's for this reason we always recommend running a quarantine proceedure to screen new fish for parasites; it involves raising salt to 0.3%, raising heat and adding Prazi.

Just one thought about your water testing and chloramines from the tap. I'm not sure which test kit you have, but, if you are using AmQuel, the test results when used in conjunction with a Nessler type kit (Yellow/gold colours) will be unreliable - the reagents disturb the colour control. The Salicylate kits (yellow/green) are the ones to use with AmQuel.

As Mads says, it will help you in future to keep all the info on the same thread, OR post a link to any previous relevant topics, so that everything of note is included. I often try to search a persons other threads for clues and info but this takes forever (as you can imagine) and I don't always have time to do such an in depth investigation.

Don't be put off fishkeeping because of your initial losses. Many of us started out where you are now and you will learn a tremendous amount if you stick with it. Fish do die from time to time, even in the hands of experienced keepers, but quarantining is the most important step when starting a new tank or introducing new fish.

Well, the Ryukin made it through the night. He's still alternating swimming around looking normal and drifting around looking dead. Can't decide if he's getting better or worse now.

I am using the API test kit, the ammonia turns yellow or green, so I think I've got the right thing.

I just read the thread on quarantine procedures, and my first thought was "Where on earth would I put yet another tank?!" I know it's the best thing for the fish, but right now we're scrambling to find places for the tanks we have within the next 8 days. I have no idea where or how I could install another tank, cycle it, maintain it, etc. for months. Does everyone else just have an extra established tank just sitting around?

pinkspore I hope your Ryukin pulls through! I know you're getting good advice here.

to answer your question about having an extra cycled tank, -A good way to doing this is to have a second filter set up on your tank (you can't over filter your tank!), you can get a 10 gal bucket or 'rubbermaid' tote box that you can dedicate to fish things and then bring it out when needed for quarrantine procedures. (I have a tote box that I use to store all my goldfish paraphenalia in and when I need the box I empty all my gear into plastic bags for the duration of QT being set up) when you need to set up your QT all you need to do is transfer some of your tank water and your extra filter for an instant cycle!

Glad to hear your fish pulled through the night, lets hope it makes it to the time you get your meds.

Just wanted to add to Mads advice (I do the same thing as she does): I think you can easily use your 20 gal as the QT while you're waiting for the 55 to cycle. You could treat both the fish in there as it is already cycled - am I right that you are down to the ryukin and the fantail? - meanwhile you could continue the 55g as a fishless cycle by adding pure ammonia. You don't necessarily need a different tank to observe the QT proceedure - you can take all the necessary steps with what you have.
Good news that he lasted through the night

Still hanging in there! Either the Jungle tabs helped, or Sergei is just a tough little bugger. He's still alternating alert swimming/feeding with limp drifting, but I don't think he's getting worse.



That would be a great idea if my tank would cooperate. We already had to cut the slot in the top to fit the two filters we have side by side. I'm not sure if the structure would still be sound if we got out the hacksaw and cut it that much bigger. I'll have to remember that idea if we ever change the filter setup, though. It's great!

I can use my 20 gallon as a quarantine tank for now, but the big problem is that next Saturday I will be moving and there's really no place for the 20 gallon tank at the new place. We're still scrambling to find sturdy flat surfaces for the guppies, gecko, and snake, there's just not room for another tank or tub. Also, I'd really like to have more than 2 fish in my big tank ultimately. I don't know how I would quarantine anyone else in the future, either. Maybe I'll just treat the whole big tank for flukes everytime I add someone...

"Also, I'd really like to have more than 2 fish in my big tank ultimately. I don't know how I would quarantine anyone else in the future, either. Maybe I'll just treat the whole big tank for flukes everytime I add someone..."

Hmm, I don't really think this would be practical - there is more to worry about out there than just flukes and treating a whole healthy tank for one fishes illness is not good for them. A bit like having to take antibiotics when you are fine just because your partner has an infection.
The best thing to do is to get an extra internal filter like a Fluval or AquaOne to run on your 55g - there is no need to hack the top open, as all that is needed is space for the wire. If you get a 10g rubbermaid/plastic crate, you could put it anywhere there is a plug-point whenever you get a new fish. I often just put mine on the dining room floor.

Regarding the move - can you not simply transfer your existing cycled filter/s onto the 55g? Then you would not need to find space for the 20g.

I think I might be able to fit a 10 gallon tank in the bottom of my tank stand, that would probably keep it safe from the dog and cat. I could definitely do an internal filter, that's a great idea!

The whole filter thing is kind of complicated. The 55 gallon tank came with an Aquaclear 300. The 20 gallon was running an Aquaclear 200 and a Penguin 150. To try and cycle the tank faster I took the entire Aquaclear 200 and put it on the 55 gallon. This didn't seem to help.

Oh I am so sorry! It is so frusting to watch and not know how to help! Everyone at Kokos helped me get my fishies through! Don't give up! For a while there I was just like you, frustrated and sad. I was doing 50% water change in the morning and 25% at night for 2 weeks. Then the fishies got better even though a lost a few. Hang in there!!!

Sergei is still hanging in there! My order from the goldfish connection arrived today so I could finally dose the tank with PraziPro. Johann my precious fantail is happy and eating. Sergei has been scaring people for 4 days now, he lays on his side on the bottom or drifts around limply, and then when I come over to look at him he snaps out of it and swims around a little. He's been getting weaker and weaker, though. Every time I check on him I expect him to be dead. I'm really hoping he's still strong enough to recover.

I put a teaspoon of the PraziPro in the 20 gallon tank, and Johann ate a couple of pieces of Medi-Gold. Sergei isn't strong enought o eat right now. I'm really hoping for some recovery overnight.

i hope your fish take a turn for the better!
i will keep my fingers crossed for you!

No improvement. I'm stunned he has lasted this long.

Since I moved everybody from the 55 gallon to the 20 gallon a bit over a week ago, do I need to treat the 20 gallon for flukes as well?

Did you mean to say this the other way around? ie. as the fish are in the 20g, does the 55 need treating?
The 20g certainly needs treating as the fish are in there - flukes are on the fish. I would also treat the 55g to catch any stages left behind.
I would try to force feed the sick fish some MediGold - lift him gently above the waterline to make him gape and drop a couple of soaked pellets into his open mouth.

Yes, thank you for deciphering what I meant. Do you think treating the 55 gallon once would be enough? Or should I treat it again in a couple weeks?

I'll definetely try feeding Sergei some MediGold. Hopefully he'll start improving soon.

I tried popping some food in his mouth, but he spit it out quite forcefully. I'm hoping the whole process didn't stress him out too much.

Sergei the Ryukin finally died this evening. My fantail is still looking happy and perky, though. I guess once my big tank cycles I might think about getting him some buddies.

Rick at Goldfishconnection sent me an email today about the prazi pro (q) I ordered. In order to make sure flukes are completely gone. You first need to do the largest water change possible. Remove carbon filter, follow dosing instructions on meds, 6 doses (6 days in a row) with a 20% water change in between doses.

Yes you will become a water keeper! But in the end it will work out for the best.

I am soooo very sorry about your fish. I cried for days.

Make sure the water is perfectly cycled before adding more fish. I think pixie or trinket has a link to the wonders of flukes and the importance of water levels. They pulled me through an unbelievalbe mess I got into. 7 fish in a 20 gall uncycled tank.

You can do it!

Do fish get lonely? My fantail is bottom sitting now. When I originally took out his common buddy he started bottom sitting, and didn't get any better until I moved another fish into the tank with him. Now his last tankmate is gone and he's right back on the bottom again.

Oh no! I'm so sorry you lost him.

Sometimes they are just too far gone for the meds to pull them back. Spitting out food is a common response when fish have a heavy fluke load.

Regarding your fantail, I think the best plan is to continue and complete meds as directed. Some people do say that their fish are visibly lonely when their tank mate disappears, but I tend to think that bottom-sitting is an indication of illness or water quality rather than just 'feeling lonely'. Make sure to vac and water change very regularly at the moment - immature flukes will gather in the gravel and once a fish is hanging around the bottom the fluke population can really move in fast.

Newbie's Prazi directions came very helpfully while I was off, so I would also follow a treatment plan on the cycling 55g, too - so that it is pristine for your fish to move into.

Now you know about quarantining and you have your Prazi, you can find new friends for your fantail to share the 55 with. I would only add one at a time to the new tank to allow the filter to expand to meet the newly increased waste output.

Aren't you about to get married and move any minute? I've lost track of everything a little.
Anyway, I hope you can manage all this when you must have so many other things on your mind. Just keep thinking how nice the finished 55 will be with new fish............

I'm vacuuming and doing a 20% wc daily right now. Tomorrow will be the last day I can do it, though. I'll be back on Wednesday and will move the 20 gallon tank either then or Thursday. There's just a couple of small patches of gravel in the tank now, and it will all go when we move. We're also going to do some major tank-swapping when the 55 is cycled. The guppies will go into the 20 gallon, the fantail will go into the 55 gallon, and I have an internal filter to keep in the 55 gallon so I can get a quarantine tank going.

Well, I'm back and we're all moved in. Johann the fantail is in the 55 gallon tank and has been swimming all over the place. I started treating that tank for flukes yesterday, so it will get the whole course. Got an internal fiter going in there for future use in a quarantine tank, and a 10 gallon in the stand.

Johann is a lot of fun to watch, his tail is still very short so he swims really jerky. The rest of his fins are really big and beautiful now, hopefully his dorsal fin will round out eventually.

Pinkspore, all your fish are doing okay now?

Well, I'm down to one goldfish, and he's in the 55 gallon tank doing the same thing he did in the 20 gallon: hanging around in one corner of the tank and hiding anytime people are nearby. I need to start quarantining another fish so he can have some company. Last time he was all alone he acted like this until I put someone else in there with him, and then he acted just fine.