• Test Results for the Following:
  Ammonia Level? 0
  Nitrite Level? 0
  Nitrate level? 5ish
  Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? 7.5
  Ph Level out of the Tap? Comes out 6.8, then after it sits for a day reads in the mid 7's?
  
• Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 20 gallons, years
  
• What is the name and size of the filter/s? 2 Whisper 40 filters
  
• How often do you change the water and how much? 50% weekly or more
  

How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 medium comet
<li>What kind of water additives or conditioners? 18 tablespoons aquarium salt, PraziPro
<li>Any medications added to the tank? PraziPro
<li>Add any new fish to the tank? No
<li>What do you feed your fish? Tetrafin and now Jungle Anti-Bacteria for the past six days (missed 1 dose). I have been feeding Tetrafin too contrary to instructions because he seemed to not do as well on just the medicated food.
<li>Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",
bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Yes; ick spots on tail fin, and some red streaks in fins.
<li>Any unusual behavior like staying
at the bottom, not eating, ect..? Eating very well but lethargic


Any advice? I have added the recommended amount of salt (gradually) again, and added PraziPro. I used MelaFix also for 3 days, then did two big WC's to remove it. I also had Quick Cure in there for 2 days prior to using the melafix, and I also did a WC to remove that. I don't have any carbon ATM (ran out a while back) to strip out any traces of previous meds, and I don't want to use it since I have Prazi in the tank. Although I s'pose I could if need be; I'd just have to buy some and maybe use more Prazi?

I would def. appreciate help if anyone can offer it.

Hello Ralph and sorry to hear that your fish is ill, not again, but still.

It looks to me like you are overmedicating. Large wcs are still going to leave meds in the water if you don't use carbon in the filter to remove them. So essentially, you had Quick Cure in the water, then used Melafix. Quick Cure is a very harsh med, and Melafix does nothing to help ich as far as I know.

If I were you I would get some carbon in the filter. Continue using the salt as directed for ich, keeping in mind that as you remove water with changes, you must replace the salt. You will really need a journal of when and how much salt you added to keep up with this correctly. Also read on the pinned thread about salt and ich about slowly raising the temp of your water to speed up the ich life cycle. If you have gravel in the tank, do a thorough vacuum twice a week to get rid of the ich larvae that lie in the gravel substrate. Be sure that you have an air bubbler to create more oxygen in the tank, as warmer water and meds deplete the oxygen. That may also be what is making your fish lethargic.

Is there a reason that you are using medicated food? Is there a secondary infection? If not, I don't think that medicated foods matter much with ich, as it isn't an internal problem.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Thank you very very much for the reply! I went ahead and bought some carbon and will put it in right away.

I also have an air bubbler, but my airline tubing was used prev. on a sick minnow that passed away. Should I get new tubing or will it be alright? I can get new tubing tomorrow if need be.

The medicated food is since I'm concerned about those red streaks. I wonder if they may be a bacterial sec. infection? They had cleared up, then when I missed a dose a few came back.

I don't think I need to keep a salt journal, since I store my water in gallon jugs prior to changes and measure out 1 tablespoon of pickling salt, funnel it in the water, shake up the jug, and let it sit for several hours to assume the right temp before it ever enters the aquarium! I find this is an easy way to keep track of the salt and get exactly the right amount of 1 tbsp per gallon each time. With a journal I'd worry I missed a calculation somewhere along the line.

Any more tips'd be great if you know of any.

I think the red streaks are more to your showing of nitrites in the water. Nitrites are just like ammonia in that they should always read 0. They are as lethal to your fish as ammonia.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that salting for ich is more than 1%. I'd feel better if you went to the pinned thread on the forum and checked that out. I think you START with 1% and gradually raise it to 3%. If I'm incorrect, someone will let me know. Like I said, please go to the pinned thread about ich and check for sure.

Aquarium tubing is very inexpensive, so I wouldn't take a chance. I'd get some new.

The problem with feeding medicated food is that if your fish eventually need them for an internal problem, they may not work. Sort of like taking antibiotics too often, and when you're sick they don't work for you at all.

Keep doing large wc's until you get that nitrite down to 0 and keep it there. Water changes don't stress fish, poor water conditions do. Ich is present in virtually all aquarium settings. It only shows up on a fish that is weakened by illness or stressed by water conditions, as I understand it. But ich can damage your fish's gills and be fatal if not taken care of fairly quickly.

Hang in there!

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Ich.html-here's the link to the treatment of ich

Crud--typed too close to the link and it won't let me edit. Here it is:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Ich.html



Malachite Green, Rid Ich, and Formalin are very harsh medications. Salt at 3% and gradually raising your water temp is very much easier on your fish and works just as well. Just remember to gradually raise the temps and salt.

Thanks for the response again. There are a couple things though I thought I should mention.

I don't actually have any nitrite in the water, so I don't think that's the cause of the red streaks. I have nitrate, but that's normal isn't it?

Also, and I know this might be nitpicky (I hope I'm not coming off as being rude or trying to correct someone who's trying to help me, I don't mean to be) but it actually says to raise the salt to .3%. 3% salt is more like seawater (or even saltier, maybe) and I don't think a poor freshwater fishy could survive it for very long. I did raise it slowly starting at 1 teaspoon per gallon which I think is .1%, and raising it in twelve-hour intervals till it reached 3 teaspoons of salt for every gallon of water.

I think I will go ahead and get new airline tubing just to be safe, and start aerating the water right as soon as I get it tonight. My fishy (he really needs a name after six years! My mom suggested Phoenix since he has been ill a few times before and has recovered well--unfortunately I was responsible for some of the times he was sick but I didn't know any better at the time...) seems to be doing better, knock on wood. I see just two ick spots, and currently his red streaks are slowly fading. He is still somewhat lethargic though and only comes up from the bottom when someone walks by.

All-in-all, I am doing all of the ick treatment (salt, soon to be extra aeration, gravel vacs) except for increasing the heat; the water is currently at 74-76 degrees, and I'm scared to use the heater I have because it doesn't have numbers for the temperature you're setting it to; it also doesn't seem reliable since last time I used it the temp changed even without me touching it. I'd hate to make the problem worse with a swinging temperature.

Dear lord that was wordy

Hello Ralph,

Yes, Vickie just forgot the decimal point, but it was good of you to catch it. The salt should be left for at least two weeks, and that should clear the ich.
It could be stress that's causing the streaks in the fins, so hopefully - clearing the ich will solve that.
You have everything else in check, and Vickie has given you great advice.
If you're afraid of your heater, then I would think that the temp you have is okay.. but maybe someone with more experience with ich/temps might chime in for more info.
I think Phoenix is a great idea for a name.

Debbie

hi Ralph heat speeds up the life cycle for ich .making it easier for the salt to kill off ich.if you are afraid of your heater I would not use it ..but I would invest in a new one they are inexpensive ..then you may not get a reaccurence of ich

Gosh Ralph, I DID forget the decimal point! Good catch, and of course I don't think you're being rude. There is a BIG difference between .3% and 3% for goodness sake and I should have caught that.

I'd go with buying a new heater. You never know when you'll have use for it again sometime and as hi-d said, it speeds up the ich life cycle and gets rid of them quicker. The sooner they're gone the better off your fish will be.

Thanks for the advice. I think I will pick up a new heater first thing tomorrow (i'm out of cash for today but will have some avail. tomorrow afternoon).

Hey everyone. I am going to get a heater today. Phoenix is still not looking well and has clamped fins, a few ick spots, and red spots too. He is still lethargic but eating well. I have decided to stop feeding the medicated food since it doesn't seem to be doing him much good.

Is adding some more Prazi a good idea? What else can I do? I'm thinking about turning the current down on my filters since it seems like a bit much for him right now. I really hope he makes it.

hi ralph once you start meds you should finish the dose or you will build up a resistance ..just like people that don't finish anibiotics are bodies build up a resistance to those .. I can't help you on the prazi ..can you put some decorations or a terracotta pot to break up the flow instead ?...about the prazi have you used it prior or are you using it for the first time ? prazi is a gentle med people generly use prazi and salt as a routine for a new fish in quarintine

Thanks for the quick reply. The antibiotic course on the bottle is a little too vague and says "feed once or twice daily for five to ten days". It's been more than 5 days since i started so that's basically a full course right? He seems to have lost weight on the antibiotic food and so I think it may have done more harm than good.

I have used Prazi once before just a few days back but put carbon in my filter to take out traces of other meds, and then have done many water changes since that so I don't think there is any in currently.

that is pretty vague ..sheesh !!..lol try feeding good immunity foods like veggies and fruits (I feed mine kiwi it's packed with vitamin c ) but I don't feed them the little black seeds ..if the meds are up than ya ..move on ..just be sure that it is needed next time ..fish are very hard to figure out because they almost display the same dang symptom for everything !!!..lol salt and prazi sounds good to me ..but wait to see what others have to say ....

If you've only done one dose of Prazi, then I'd say start again, getting all of the doses in. You can't get rid of flukes with one dose, and there will be more of them by now.
I actually just read this thread on using Prazi. Maybe you'll find it useful.
Good luck with your fish!!

Debbie

Thanks; I'll add another dose of Prazi and I think I'll do the two days on, three days off, two days on method on that thread. Of course if someone has had better results with another method let me know!

Actually, it's recommended that adding every three days is best in this post - in the same thread.
I'll go see what else I can find on it. There's a thread about flukes and prazi in the goldfish discussion forum, so I'll give that a quick read and see if it's still the best.

Debbie

It won't let me edit, but every 3 days (72 hours) seems to be the best.
If you'd like to read the thread on flukes, it's here.

Debbie

Thank you for the info--I will go for every 24 hours for 3 days then.

On another forum some people are recommending various antibiotics again but I'm a little wary of them. I don't want to kill my fish with kindness and all.

Got the heater and will try and set it up tonight. Unfortunately none of the store's heaters had degree markers on them so I'm going to sit by the tank and monitor the temp very carefully.

I fed him a strawberry piece which he seemed to like. Hopefully it wasn't too acidic (they're a little sour but not unpleasantly and are ripe). He looks a little less exhausted (KOW) now that he's getting Tetrafin instead of that medicated food. Tetrafin is the one he likes the best, but I also feed Hikari and Omega One flakes too. I have too much fish food. I even had freeze-dried bloodworms but I gave them to my girlfriend for her betta.

I saw this at (store) today and was wondering if anyone recommends it or think it could be at all useful?

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl36...ardremedyfw6tab

The prazi should be dosed every 3 days - which is 72 hours, not 24. Put a dose in, wait three days then put in another, wait three days, etc. I believe it should be done for 2 weeks.



You're treating your fish for ich, correct? And you've never given a full treatment of Prazi before? Prazi is safe with salt, so lets deal with these things first, for the ich will kill your fish if not treated.



That's really odd that it wouldn't have any settings on it. I've never used one, but you'd think they would have that.



My fish likes strawberries, too. Since you've just stopped giving the antibac food, try feeding foods with vitamin C to help boost his immune system. Peas, oranges, etc.


The Jungle Labs Lifeguard - I have never seen before, so I can't give an opinion. Maybe someone else will chime in who has.

Debbie

Thank you *so* much for catching that! I must have misread! I was just about to dose every day for 3 days straight! I hope I have enough PraziPro to keep up the dosing for that long.



Eek, yeah I'm treating for ick (with salt). I haven't ever done a full treatment of Prazi either. What's worrying me even more than the ich is the redness. I will try and post a pic of exactly what it looks like if I can; I think that would be helpful right?



It is a mystery as to why they don't; I remember an old heater I had once had settings and it made everything much, much easier!



Will do! I fed him 3 times with flake food, once with the strawberry. I hate to see him so thin. I will try feeding peas as well soon. Can I use a few thawed frozen peas that have a small amount of salt and baking soda, if I rinse it?

A picture is worth a thousand words!



I wouldn't risk it. The peas may have absorbed the salt and soda. I use Birdseye frozen peas. There's nothing in them but peas.

Debbie

I'll def. have a pic up by tomorrow (maybe today). Thanks for the recommendation on the BirdsEye peas! I'll pick some up for tomorrow's feeding. I'll probably feed Hikari flakes and peas tomorrow to give him a variety.

The new heater that I got for my tropical tank doesn't have settings, either. Supposedly they only heat the water to 80 degrees. So far thats about what the tropical tank has stayed at. You have to be sure to get the right size heater for your tank. I'm not nuts about it either because there is no adjustment, but they're supposed to be safer.

mine is the same thing it only heats so high ...remember to let your heater sit in the water for a good 25 mins before turning on ..and turn it up slowly ..don't rush ..I have cracked a heater doing this ..I always do a couple degrees and wait till the light turns off and repeat to desired temp

Thanks a lot for the advice.

This heater is adjustable, but the problem is that you just turn a knob to + for hotter and - for colder, but with no numbers to tell you what it's setting it to. D: So I guess it actually does have settings, but not marked ones.

I will probably use it tomorrow because I am scared to at this hour. I will probably be asleep in 2 hours at the latest and I'm already a little drowsy, and wouldn't want to risk making Phoenix sicker by having the temp shoot up high while I was asleep.

Good idea. Save new stuff till you have slept! Too many mistakes are made when we are in a hurry.

How is the ich looking Ralph? Any more spots visible? Remember the salt must be kept at 0.3% for 6 days after the last cyst falls off.
And please remember water changes must be done during salting treatments, replacing the salt exactly (as described in the salt link you can find in my sig) as it is removed with the water. A 50% water change is easiest= replace HALF the full final dosage=0.15% with each 50% water change.

Lifeguard is a very highly toxic medication containing trichlorfon. It is caustic and not recommended for fish showing bloody streaks. Salt + stable pH and temperature + perfect water with one conditioner only (de-chlorinator and de-chloraminator) is far more gentle.
Too much product in the water can cancel out the effectiveness of all.

A picture of your fish would help, when you have time tomorrow.

Okay, then its a normal heater. Just let it sit in the water for about 30 minutes so it can get adjusted to the water temp. Then turn the knob in tiny increments until the red light just comes on. Keep an eye on your water temp and only raise it 2 degrees per hour, until it gets to the proper temperature. When you get the tank to the temp you want, I always turn the knob back just a teeny bit to make sure the red light doesn't come back on.

Oh yes hi-d, cracked heaters can be dangerous. I once unknowingly had one crack and stuck my hand it the tank for something, and it knocked me across the room!

An electrifying experience, but not one I'd want to repeat.

The ick spots are getting fewer and fewer. I see one right now on the tail fin, but there might be more that are out of view I think.

I will be sure to replace the salt exactly as I remove it and will keep up with my w/c's. But since I'm dosing with Prazi, and I read Prazi loses its effectiveness after 3 days (which I imagine is why it was recommended to dose every 72 hours), would a water change about every 3 days make sense? I hope I haven't overlooked something telling me the answer to my question. I have to admit I have a rough time paying attention or focusing so I'm grateful to everyone being so patient.



Thank you so much for telling me about it. I am glad I didn't hurt Phoenix or waste money on it.

I sometimes use different water conditioners; should I stick with one? I use Prime and Aquasafe depending on which bottle is closer to the tank at the time....



Got my camera and will try to get it set up and post the pic today; I've had it for months but haven't really been able to get the hang of it quite yet...

Thanks everyone for your help. I am going to be *very* careful with that heater too and let it sit in the water a while.

Update: I made a mistake

I needed to top up the water in the tank to get the water level high enough for the heater. I got a gallon jug, added a tablespoon of salt, filled it about half full, and poured it in.

Right after, it hit me the water I poured in was doubly salty as the rest of the water. I only filled it halfway.

I guess that means there's about a half tablespoon too much salt in my tank right now. Do I need to worry or is that just a small mistake? I don't know *how* I didn't realize I'd have to fill the jug fully to make the salt concentration in that jug .3 instead of .6

I don't think thats a major mistake, Ralph. When you do your next wc, just back off the amount that you overdid in salt.

And I wouldn't wait and do wc's every 3 days, even though I can see where it would make more sense. I understand that having the stuff on hand gets to be a pain, and I also know its not cheap. But you can't afford to let the ammonia rise at all in your water, especially with Phoenix already being stressed.

The things we have to do for our pets...

Thanks Glad to hear I didn't mess up *too* bad.

Do I really need to worry about ammonia though? My tank has been running for a long time and I haven't ever gotten a positive reading for ammonia/nitrite in all the time I've been testing.

That heater is a tad tricky. It got up to 79 and so I turned it down just a little. It's still there but the indicator light is off. I decided to feed Phoenix some banana today with Hikari flakes; I don't think they have much vitamin C but he sure enjoyed it. It's good to see him feel better even if it's just because of food.

hi ralph watch your water closley high salt can bump cycle a bit but not to worry ..it is important that you waterchange alot with a bout of ich.. as it falls off into the gravel and needs to be delt with ,with gravel vacs so you do not risk it coming back ..

You always have to worry about ammonia when you're adding meds, including salt. My 30 gallon has been cycled for almost a year, and even with regular wcs, I have occasionally had ammonia show in small amounts.
With your fish having ich and weakened by stress, don't leave anything to chance. And, as hi-d stated, you need to do frequent wc's to get rid of the ich larvae.
You are doing great Ralph, and I think Phoenix is going to be ok. Ich isn't hard to get rid of, and after you get rid of it we can all possibly put our heads together and figure out why he got it in the first place.

Thank you very much! I'm going to do a water change/gravel vac today (replacing salt except 1/2 tablespoon less to fix yesterday's mistake).

I got a picture; I hope it shows Phoenix's problem clearly enough (I know it's really poor quality)




He has several more white spots today than yesterday =( That doesn't really show them well though, it mostly shows the redness.

This photo shows the white spots a bit better

Hi Ralph!
Phoenix is sure a lovely fish! From the pics it is definitely ich, but it doesn't look as bad as it could. Unfortunately I can't see the red streaks clearly. Maybe someone with better eyes than me can, though.

Keep doing what you're doing. I think Phoenix is going to be alright. He looks healthy except for the ich.

Hi Ralph,

First off, let me say that your photography skills are better than mine... Your pictures are a little blurry - but still better than mine! I always had my daughter do the picture taking. ( Vickie! What am I going to do for pictures now??)
Sorry... back to your photo. With the red, are you talking about the area on the end of the top portion of the tail? It looks red and a bit worn there to me.
If so, I wonder if a dap of some hydrogen peroxide on a cotton swab would be a good idea for that. I'll ask someone to peek in to be sure.

If the white spots look like grains of salt or sugar, then it's definitely ich.

Debbie

My tank got up to 80 degrees today. Phoenix seems a little stressed so I opened up the lid of the tank as a vent. He was near the top/where the airstone is and seemed to not have enough air. I don't know how it went up because I haven't messed with it at all since doing a wc (I decided to do one yesterday and then early this morning--I don't know why exactly but I thought it might be a good idea). I hope this upswing won't make him any worse.

I'm really glad the photos were useful at least. The red streaking in the first pic is at the top part of the end of the tail. In person it does look a little worn too.

Seeing more ich spots It seems to be getting worse now and they are almost all over the place, instead of just on the tail fin.

warmer temps will slow him down a bit ...you can also bring down the level of your water a bit so the water from the filter breaks the surface creating more o2.. it will get worse before getting better ..turning up the heat speed life cycle so you will see more ..they have always been there you just couldn,t see them ..sorta like chicken pox in kids if you see one.. put your kids in a really warm bath and the warmth brings out the rest

Thanks Heidi. I am thinking about getting yet another heater but we don't really have many choices of brands at the pet store here (there is just 1 pet store in town). I am worried because of the temp moving around like that, similar to my last heater. I wish I could just buy one once that actually worked properly. I'm not sure any others I get will be better. The Marineland heaters I hear are really good but the store doesn't stock them.

I am glad it's normal for it to get worse before getting better (I mean I'm not, but I'm glad it might be a stage of getting better). I almost wanted to use more quick cure but of course I didn't!

I noticed you said airstone at the top..try moving it to the bottom ..80 is fine for ich treatment ..you just need to be sure you can make lots of 02..

Thanks; I moved it down below. It was more like around the middle of the tank level, but now it's at the bottom which I guess would make more sense.

Hi-d, comparing ich to chicken pox is exactly right!! When my son was small I thought he had a few mosquito bites until I put him a a warm bath and OMG!!!!!!!!! He was covered and I was in a panic, not knowing what chicken pox looked like!

Its ok Ralph, this is a good sign. Just keep the aeration going well. You're doing a great job.

LOL...as long as we are not salting the bath water to 0.3 we are not completly crazy ..

That's great....

The temp has gone down to 78 again now. I am going to try my best to keep it as close to exactly there as I can. I know a constant temp. is healthy and keeps fish from being stressed.

Ech, I noticed just now he seems like he has a long, stringy piece of poop It's whitish and I haven't seen anything like that before; it's usually brown or red, the color of Tetrafin. Very strange...