it's normal for him to stress a little in warm temp and the ich dosn't help ..long stringy poo can be a sign of stress ..just keep your eye on him

Wow Ralph, you have a whole support team here rooting for you and your fish. Aren't these gals just great

And you are doing great too. I had a look at the pic and my eyes are not the best but I think your fish may have finrot. The outer edge looks white or has lost color and is chalky isn't it? Like a fraying edge or a chalky trim? Throw redness into that and you have finrot. What I am wondering is which came first, the ich or this finrot? That would be key in solving this. If the finrot is primary then you may well be needing to feed your fish some medicated food as that can be a symptom of bacterial sepsis. Add the recent stringy poop (often caused by stress as Heidi says but) - plus the finrot -it seems more likely...

Some of the things that cause finrot are 1)water issues (but you say there has been no ammonia or nitrite spike)2) lack of oxygen (as water heats up oxygen is removed form the water and fish need much more dissolved oxygen in warmer water..a double edge sword) 3)over or wrong medication and 4)bacterial probs. Flavobacter and aero/pseudomonas are common finrot causing bacteria.

If its a bacterial thing, you need to know that only much larger water changes will rid the water of sufficient numbers of bacteria to allow the fish breathing space to heal up. Opportunistic bacteria, even more so perhaps than parasites -or certainly the same- are threatening to a fishes health directly proportional to the numbers of them in the water/tank. This is why, in well established tanks like yours, a monthly 100% water change is a verynecessary preventative -bacterial reduction -treatment plan.

You could dab the fin ends with HP to aid healing but if that red area is getting worse still you may need to feed a course of antibiotic food. You definitely need to keep up the salt, if you are sure it is ich. Has the fish flashed or darted around the tank? Has the fish been bottom sitting? These are all symptoms of ich that always occur. If these symptoms are not present, you may be looking at aviral type spotting that comes at times of low immunity and stress (perhaps brought on from low oxygen levels/fluctuating temps and the bacterial attack itself).

So....we need to know, the order finrot first, ich like spots first? Any lessening of the red in the fins? Any farther decay of the fin edges?
Where are the white spots and how many mms is each spot? If you roll your thumb and forefinger over the spots are they hard and crusty to touch? Or are they just slimey? Waxy?
Have you seen any flashing/darting/scratching and /or bottom sitting? Is the fish still eating well, does he appear distressed at all
If you have answered these Qs elsewhere in the thread forgive me, a quick summary again of order of events would be awesome

Definitely yes!



It has lost its color, yeah. And it does seem frayed. I am fairly sure the ich came first and then the finrot second.



Aha, thank you for letting me know. Should I do one today?



I have noticed some flashing and also erratic darting. Also bottom sitting most of the time. I fed Jungle antibacteria food for a while but it wasn't effective and seemed to make his lethargy worse. The instructions were very vague and said "Feed once or twice daily for five to ten days", which I did (it would probably be harder to *not* follow such wishy-washy instructions like that).



I will get to this question soon, I have to go check! Although the white spots are mainly on his tail fin, I noticed one near his nasal passage. Some of them vary in size but a lot of them seem to be about the size of this "o". Thanks so much for your reply Trinket.

I touched his tail and rubbed the spots between my thumb and finger, to see how they felt, and I couldn't really tell much difference between the spot and spot-free areas; they both feel pretty slimy. The redness seems to be going down just a little, but the fin edges seem whiter.

I don't have a clue what ich feels like only what it looks like ....I think probably now Trinkets catching some zzz..go ahead with a water change (temp matched )if you need to warm water in a kettle and mix into the bucket is fine .be sure it is not too hot when running high temp ammonia can be a killer if not kept in check..so all the better to be doing large water changes ..I'm gonna let Trinket decide on the tail and finrot (if that is the issue ) parasites I can handle ..when it gets into the bacterial end of things I am still learning ..so until Trinket gets here or someone with more knowledge in this area.. large water change is good ..this is one of the first things that can aid a sick fish.... good water .Salting also helps keep any secondary infections at bay .your doing good .post back if anything changes

Thanks! I am cleaning out two buckets with bleach/water to disinfect them to get ready for a big w/c (rinsing the bleach off really well and leaving clean dechlorinated water to soak before dumping it out and refilling with the water to put in the tank). I noticed two new red spots on his dorsal fin now. And the whiteness/chalkiness and fraying seem even worse than before.

To Trinket when you get back: Would making an antibiotic gel food similar to this recipe http://thegab.org/Articles/MedicatedGelFood.html be a good idea? Are the sardines 100% necessary (they are expensive and I don't think I'll be able to get them as easily as I could get everything else)?

I'm like hi-d and Fishyfish, parasites I can advise you on but when it comes to the scientific stuff, Trinket's like a marine biologist!

She lives on the other side of the world, so her schedule is topsy-turvy from ours. I'm sure she'll be back on this evening and check in on you. Until she does, I'd do the large wc and keep an eye on him.

Hi again Ralph. Did you get the temperature matched larger salted water change done? Try to keep that dissolved salt at the same level and not more than 0.3%.

You must keep at the salt.

I think you have parasites + bacterial infection here. Likely the Jungle medicated food was not the right one. Each strain of bacteria are susceptible to different antibiotics (main reason why they are prescription only drugs for people) so its very easy for a med food to be useless unfortunately if you don't have the specific one that works on the bacteria present.


The med food you link to is way too much food- for a whole army of fish in fact. There are also dosage probs making your own medicated food- it is tricky. If you can I would order or get hold of some Medigold from Goldfishconnection.com Ormetoprim & kanamycin in that one are usually effective for the common aero/pseudo bacteria that cause finrot. Med food directions are vague because they are based on fish size. If you have a larger fish you need to overfeed. The recommendations on commercial packs are geared to smaller fish.

Is he still eating well? How is his poop looking?

I did a big temp-matched water change just now (took out 16 gallons, leaving him with just enough water to cover him) and added back the right amount of salt.

He is still eating very well, but his poop varies from normal to stringy. It was stringy a few seconds ago during the water change, and he seemed stressed until the light was back on and filters were running and the water was up to level. I kept the airstone running though.

Do I need to disinfect my gravel vac?

I will try and order medi-gold then ASAP.

it's a good idea ..use water with a bit of bleach in a bucket ...then rinse,rinse ,rinse.and rinse again with dechlorinated water then possibly letting it sit in the bucket of dechlorinated water for a bit would be good.

I always hang my siphon on a hanger in the closet so it doesn't get mildew in the winter. During nice weather I hang it in the sun on the porch. Lots of moldy nasties can build up in them with the water just sitting there.

I ordered the Medigold; it's a tad pricey but I still hope I only have to use it this time! Hope it comes soon.

I found out just now I made a small mistake with the water change; instead of using cold water and heating some with the stove, I put in lukewarm water in from the tap. It was the right temp (if it came out warmer I let it cool to 78), but I'm worried because I just read about contaminants in water heaters coming in through water that passes through them.

Maybe another big w/c is in store for tomorrow?

Phoenix seems about the same; I am going to feed him some peas tonight.

Phoenix has taken a big turn for the worse today. He is bottom sitting with fully clamped fins and tilting when he tries to swim. He is still eating but having a hard time swimming properly. Is there anything at all I can do for him? The water is about 80 right now with strong aeration from the airstone and filters.

ok ralphy boy. .lets see ......I think you could have posted under the same thread ..a mod or helper will combine the two ..just so everyone knows what the history is ...and new helpers that come on board are not trying to figure out what we already know...don't worry I see your urgency....I wonder if he is REALLY stressing from the heat...turn it down a little bit at a time aim for 75-77 range to see if he perks up ..I have a moor that will not tolerate high temp and becomes very sluggish..it is not unheard of for a goldfish to bottom sit in high temp..but since there is a possible bacteria issue that Trinket has disscussed with you I don't want to make that call..

A helper will be along soon Ralph to help you with Phoenix's problem, but until then could you do some water tests? Fill out as many of the questions from the white box as you possibly can. Perhaps you could also do a water change, clamped fins and bottom sitting are symptoms of several things that discomfort a fish, one of them is high levels of ammonia. See how perhaps a 50% water change helps.

Hang in there


EDIT: Oooh, Heidi is a fast typer lol, she beat me

Thanks for the help both of you. I will turn down the temp slowly and I probably should've posted in my old thread; it would be really good if they could be combined. It'd probably be better to have the history and I wasn't really thinking.

If anyone has seen my other thread, Phoenix is doing worse today. I thought he may be dying earlier but he seems a little better now (very very slightly better). I turned off the heater. I think it was Heidi who said that one of her goldfish didn't do so well in warm water. but, the temp in my tank still seems to be at about 79. I have taken tank lid off so hopefully it'll cool off a little more. I am making sure though to keep the tank from cooling too quickly, and will try to keep it at about 75.

Does anyone think he may have flexibacter instead of ich, and I made a mistake? Or are those spots telltale signs that it *is* ich he has? Flex (from the pics I've seen) looks more moldy and sort of piles up, but the spots seem a tiny bit bigger than most photos of ich spots I see online. So I don't think it's flex but I thought it might be.

hi ralph how is phoenix doing now ...you may leave the lights off in the tank as well ..less stressful..and may bring it down a tad ..so do think she perked up ? it is normal for stressed fish to bottom sit. like I said before ..but I'm afraid she may be pushed over the edge ..can you post a pic of the whole fish..this may help the mods and helpers a bit ..when was your last water change

Ralph, as Trinket told you earlier, you probably have a combination of problems going on here. But ich, if not treated quickly is very serious and can be fatal as it causes damage to the fish's gills. I would take Heidi's suggestion and leave the light off in the tank as this may help it cool some. Its not unusual for temperature changes to stress fish out.

Continue with the regular wc's and when the temp gets to 75 be sure and keep it there. The water does need to be warmer than normal for the ich life cycle to complete faster. How is Phoenix eating? Is his poo still white and stringy?

When do you expect the Medigold to arrive? I hope its soon, as that will help greatly.

Good luck!

I'm going to go ahead and leave the lights off (whole hood is off so no lights anyway). Temp is still staying at 79, but it is a hot day today and that is probably cooler than the the temp in my house. I have turned on the air conditioning, so maybe that'll help bring it down more.

He is still eating very enthusiastically, but that is all he comes up for (if I take the can of food and show it to him through the glass he comes up, but not if I just walk by like before).

My last partial water change was very early this morning (made sure to replace the removed salt of course).

I have not seen him poop at all today =/

The medigold shipped early this morning, but I'm not sure when it'll arrive. I really hope it gets here soon.

I'll try and get a pic of him real soon tonight.

Sorry about not getting the pic; I got exhausted and kind of overwhelmed last night.

Phoenix has developed a little red spot under a gill which I will definitely photograph today. I am really considering making some of that antibiotic food with Kanamycin because I'm worried the Medi-Gold might not get here until it's too late

Don't worry Ralph, I'll merge the two threads for you and we'll take it from there.

The threads are merged according to date (chronologically) so its confusing and we need a recap Ralph.

You say our fish is getting worse. So I take it she is bottom sitting..or flashing?

The ich must be dealt with. How are you with the salt?How many weeks has it been at 0.3%? The bacterial issues seem to be secondary. Have you made gelfood with kanamycin, do you know the dosage? Has the medigold arrived? Awaiting news.....

Hey everyone. Sorry for disappearing like that.

I am really worried that Phoenix may not make it; he tilts on his side often now and has trouble swimming; I also got a positive result for ammonia this morning and noticed a new red splotch on his pelvic fin. so i did a big water change and added a lot of prime (I believe just under 5X the dechlorinating dose). No readable ammonia for now. I have made medicated food with Tetracycline; the ich spots still remain, but some people on thegab.org say it doesn't look like ich to them. However, I am still keeping the tank salted and at 76 degrees. I am feeding the medicated gel food twice every day as much as he will eat.

Medigold is not here yet; hope it gets here monday. No nitrite to speak of but I'm going to be doing daily water changes anyway.

I have been using the salt for quite a while now; I'll get the date posted soon. It's been at least a week but probably quite a bit longer.

Yes, the white spots looked too large to be ich to me. Double check: ich spots are not larger than agrain of white sugar and usually look more like grains of white salt. You say they are this size "o" ? Sure? In which case I suggest you bring the salt down to 0.2% now and then 0.1% tomorrow. Leave it there.

Water problems and stress can produce viral dermatitis reactions. Is it possibe that ammonia has been tweaking more than once- as this is a prime candidate for red spots. Anyway, the food should help as will daily water changes to give him the best conditions to fight back. Water meds at this point are NOT a good idea.

They do seem about o-sized, yeah. I'll do a w/c right now to bring the salt to .2. I don't think the ammonia has been going up more than once but it *is* a possibility. Thank you Trinket

Can I get rid of the heater too, if the temp stays at 74 without it?

I think the temp at 74º is fine. The extra heat was just to speed the cycle of the ich. Since there doesn't seem to be ich - there's no need.

My fish Dot had white spots on her tail a while back. They went away in .2% salt in about 2 weeks. If you've already been salting for that long, they must not be the same thing that she had. You had questioned if it could be flexibacter - and that's what she had (Columnaris).

Trinket will know best though. She always does!!

Debbie

Not sure about that -although my husband might agree with that --as sarcasm - Debs but thanks for the support hun!

Any infection will cause stress, stress brings out all kinds of things with fish. Stress plays a much larger role in disease than it does for people. I too have seen these white spots on overwintering fish and sick fish.

The temp is fine at 74.

It figures that my heater starts working *perfectly* now that I'm about to take it out, whereas before I was waking up in the middle of every night to go check up on it and had to readjust it every three or four hours (still better than my last heater).

Phoenix seems to be doing very slightly better. He is swimming crooked, but not as bad as before (antijinx). I keep trying to photograph him but my camera really doesn't work well for it and my pics are usually so blurry. He seems like he likes the light on during the day, and also seems like he's responding better to .2 salt instead of .3 (less stress signs I think). And, I think that medicated gel food is helping him too. I have been feeding him as much as he will eat twice a day, but last night he wouldn't eat very much so I had to keep encouraging him by wiggling it around, which worked.

Hey, I was wondering if anyone could help me with another question; I have been using Prime as the only dechlor. in Phoenix's tank, to safeguard against ammonia. I have the Seachem Ammonia Alert and the API ammonia test kits, and testing today with the API kit showed ammonia of .25! But the Seachem Ammonia Alert reads "safe". Plus I've been doing water changes every day and not overfeeding at all.

Does the API kit give false positives for ammonia with Prime, like I've heard Nessler kits do?

I believe so.

Here is a link to Seacham's Website - the faq's about Prime. I hope it helps!

Fingers crossed for the fishies quick recovery!

Debbie

Ralph, you've touched on the ONE thing I don't like about Prime. Although it does bind ammonia for 24 hours, you will still get a reading for it. When I was cycling it drove me nuts. Is it a REAL ammonia reading or a FALSE reading? It means the ammonia is THERE, but bound. Luckily you can't overdose with Prime!! If you add it and test an hour later, the readings are false. After 24 hours I'd consider the readings correct. And the difference in readings with the kits also drives you bonkers!

I did a 90% water change yesterday in the 30 gallon. I had one of those Mardel Ammonia indicators in the tank. An hour later it was showing green which meant the ammonia was at a dangerous level. I KNEW it couldn't be correct as I had just done a huge ph-matched, temp-matched, and dechlorinated water change. Someone on the forum had told me these things were useless, but I had just paid $20 for it so I kept it in.

I threw the darn thing out and will have to get another tester kit today. Sheesh!

Thanks for the help; I'm doing another big w/c today (well 50%) to lower the salt concentration.

Phoenix is *acting* better, but has developed a severe redness on his belly! I'll be able to take a pic; I hope it heals.

do you have gravel at the bottom of the tank ...I wonder if it is irritation from bottom sitting ??keep water good and it should clear up (if that is the case ).....my new fish was bottom sitting at the lfs on gravel and had a nasty sore on her belly I but her ina bare bottom tank and it cleared up in days ..so hopefully once your fish gets up and swimming it should clear up all your waterchanges and what your doing should help as well..

I do have gravel; right now it is sparse though and has a lot of bare patches. I took out about 1/2 my gravel (I originally had 1/4" covering the tank floor) so food would not get caught in it. Unfortunately I think I may have taken out some good bacteria too.

Thank you for the encouragement.

I'm almost done with the water change; his red patch on his belly looks pretty bad; does anyone know if Neosporin is safe to use on it?

I am going to stick my nose in here and make a few comments.

First - you are absolutely correct. The API test (a salicylate based test) will read TOTAL ammonia in a tank - both free and bound. The free ammonia is the only toxic form that you have to be concerned with. A nessler based test will malfunction with Ammolock, Amquel, Prime, etc. turning brown or blackish. It does not give any useable reading. The Ammonia Alert actually can give you a better reading of ammonia in a Prime etc. treated tank for it (as well as one type of SeaChem test) is based on gas recognition of ammonia - not a color change, ph involved reading. What you see on your ammonia alert tag is mostly a reading of "free" or toxic ammonia. Those tags are notorious for being vague and somewhate inaccurate, though.

Ich can kill a fish - and never show a single white spot. The little swarmers in the water burrow into the fish's skin - and there they multiply. The white dot is thousands of new swarmers that are actually under the skin - stretching the skin over themselves and making it look white much like a pimple looks white. When the white spot "drops off", it is actually bursting and releaseing thousands of new parasites into the tank. A fish can have thousands and thousands of parasites under it's skin before they show up as a white spot.

Sitting on a gravel base just brings the fish closer to a potential source of still more swarmers. When you heated the tank, you could have had an EXPLOSION of ich population - many who have not shown themselves as the white spots yet.

I also think that Trinket is right on the money - ich and many other parasitical problems rarely come by themselves. They nearly always involve some other secondary infections or fungal involvement or something.

Prazi does not kill ich.

If you have made a medicated food using Kanamycin, be aware that, even in food form, the Kannamycin can destroy your beneficial bacteria of your cycle. I would suggest that you may wish to do a tub to tub with the food if you use it. This will leave all swarmers and parasites behind in the "used" water, does not involve a cycle - and can preserve yours - and will help sterilize your main tank in the interm. Get a couple of big plastic tubs. Fill them with your water treated as you choose - salt or whatever. Add loads of aeration and a filter, if you can - but NOT one with your media in it. Feed your fish the medicated food if you wish. Tomorrow, fill the second tub with 100% fresh water - treated the same as the first. Move Phoenix over to the new tub and dump and clean the old one. Each day, you will switch tubs - giving the fish 100% new water. This will leave parasites and bacteria behind in the old water, dramtically reducing the numbers of each. As your tank stands empty, you can "feed" the cycle with clear ammonia to keep the cycle going - it should recover if you have not seriously damaged it, yet - and, since ich either dies without a host - or goes dormant in the gravel of the bottom, you can clean that tank well, too.

I hope that Phoenix is feeling better really soon.....

Thanks daryl.

I should have specified, but I'm using a medicated gel food with Tetracycline instead of Kanamycin. I am keeping a real close eye on that seachem ammonia alert now and so far it still says safe, fortunately.

I have a gut feeling though that I shouldn't try moving Phoenix; I know it could be helpful if he does have ich, but now whether he even had it has come into doubt; I think it might be a straight up severe bacterial infection based on what a few other posters have said. The white spots *do* look a little too big to be ich, and he improved more with the medicated food than the salting (which will now be maintained at .1%) and heat. I think he may not have even had ich at all.

I think too that moving him around could be too stressful or push him over the edge.

The Medi-Gold is here!

When I feed it tonight, should I feed as much as Phoenix will eat?

I still have that Neosporin that I'm wanting to know about using on that ulcer too, if anyone has any experience with it.

I think I may actually wait on the Neosporin and see how the antibiotic does. Does anyone think Melafix could be of use? On Koivet I read an article that said it helped heal ulcers.

I think the medigold should help melifix only does so much and I don't like the fact that it's a 7 day regime without waterchange..which is not good in a bacterial situation (in my opinion),,is the neosporin the fishy kind?

I love your new avatar

The Neosporin is only the regular kind for people. I didn't even know there was one for fish. That is neat to know though.

I've heard the Melafix can be helpful even with daily w/c's; I read somewhere (wish I remembered where) that it breaks down and loses its healing properties within a short time anyway.

I am more wondering if it is likely to cause any kinds of complications or interact in an unhealthy way with the Medi-Gold; I have some on hand and I just feel the urge to do something extra about that ulcer. I noticed there are still some smaller red spots too. I had good results treating Phoenix's fin and tail rot a long time ago with it too.

There is a product called Bio-Bandage that is like Neosporin - but for fish. Here's a link here.

I would hold off on the Melafix. Let the MediGold work a bit before adding anything to the tank. You don't want to stress out the fish with too many medications.

Debbie

Thanks Debbie. I'll hold off on the Melafix for now.

I am second-guessing as to whether Phoenix has ich. I wish I knew for sure; I feel silly for second-guessing and flip-flopping as to whether I think he has it or not. But the specks now look more like crystals of salt or sugar. I took some pics but they are all useless; this one sort of shows some of the red spots he has, but none of the white.



I think maybe I will try the method daryl recommends; it is so frustrating to not be able to get a picture.

Ralph, I really would not use the Melafix right now especially. I'd continue with the wcs and salt. Without a really clear pic, its hard to tell, although I still think that ich is a strong possibility. Meds are pretty harsh on an already stressed and ill fish. As someone else posted, you probably had an explosion of ich when you raised your tank temp.

Its hard to be patient when your fish is ill, but I know from experience that haste and panicking can cause you to do more harm to your fish than good.

How is Phoenix's poo? Is it white and stringy or is it the same color as his food? Is he eating?

Thanks; I have def. decided not to use the melafix for now.

I'm going to do a 90% water change today and add back .1 salt (what I have in there now). The temp in the tank is 76 with no heater so I'll have to warm up the tap water in a pan to get it matched.

Phoenix is eating and his poo is the same color as the food he is being fed. But will not swim up to the top, only around the bottom and waits for the food to sink where he can eat it.

Changed almost all the water; will do another w/c tomorrow too. That ulcer seems a little better (fingers crossed).

Keep up the good work!! Glad he's looking better!!

Keep us posted!

Debbie

Thanks!

His ulcers continue to heal, very slowly but it is definitely happening. I am very glad about that. I think not over-medicating was good advice.

Those Medi-Gold pellets easily get lost in the gravel though, and they dissolve I tried putting in a little tupperware cup and putting the pellets in that, but it floated around and dumped them. So, I have put them in a bare part of the tank away from any gravel, and Phoenix has an easier time finding them that way. I'm feeding him Medi-Gold 3 times a day as much as I can get him to eat. My mom accidentally gave him Omega One flakes like she did before but I've hidden them so it won't happen again.

I noticed a little more swimming activity tonight just now. Unfortunately he tilts when he sleeps, and it is hard coaxing him to come to the top. I'm keeping the salt at .1%, and alternating daily between 50% and 90% water changes.

Still about the same this morning; that tilting worries me. The ulcer has grown yet smaller though.

What does anyone think about bringing the salt up to .2 again? As a discouragement to the ich parasites (on the chance he has them, I mean)?