Hi all.

I was hoping it would be a good long while before I was posting here in the 911 section again... I recently posted for about a week on my fish Ernest, who passed away late last week (dropsy and likely bacterial infection). That thread is here: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=68168

Current conditions of tank:

Ammonia Level? 1
Nitrite Level? 0
Nitrate level? 20
Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? pH: 7.5 Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 40 gallons, 1st week of January <LI>What is the name and size of the filter/s? Rena Filster XP <LI>How often do you change the water and how much? Weekly - 25 - 30%

That said, the tank became extremely cloudy starting Saturday of this week. Gen, Biscuit and Major Tom Sherman were all subjected to the same meds as Ernest and I fear the excessive number of meds in that tank (thanks to misinformation from the LFS) has wiped out all my bbs.

So, the problems:

1 - Tank is cloudy (a 25% water change improved this, but it still should be in better shape)
2 - Ammonia will not go down (staying steady at 1). I have done multiple water changes and have used AmmoLock to neutralize. Nonetheless, I cannot get it to 0. This is very frustrating because my tank has always had perfect parameters.
3 - And finally, as a result of all the good times, it looks as though Major Tom Sherman has now developed a fungus on his wen. Started as a white spot (thought it might be new wen growth) and then started to show small red pinpricks which then started looking "veiny" and now there's what looks like a fungal tuft on the same spot. Am I in the dreaded hole-in-the-head land?

I'm very frustrated by this because I just lost a 6 year old fish and really am not ready to go back through the challenges of sick fish.... Any help would be greatly appreciated. My fish and I have certainly seen much better weeks. Grrrrr.

I have just added fresh aquarium salt to the tank as well. (Hadn't had any in there since I was using Epsom for treating Ernest when he was still living).

In looking closer at Major Tom Sherman, I am seeing on the back of his wen that well, it looks a bit "raw" if that makes any sense. There are what appear to be "skin tags", for lack of a better term. They're a little darker in color than his wen.

He's fine, eating well, happy. All three fish are all still eating MetroMeds (decided to finish out a weeklong treatment in case Ernest had passed anything on to them). Could this, in fact, be a bacterial infection? Should I be treating with Maracyn, yet again? I'm so anxious to put more medicine in this tank because of the damage already done -- and yet I am very concerned for my remaining three fish.

Thanks to anyone for guidance or assistance.

Also - and I have no idea if this will mean anything to anyone. But Gen, who is the most docile of the group, attacked Major Tom yesterday. She flew across the tank, nibbling at his side until she had grounded him. She held him there a good few seconds before moving on - wuite funny considering he is almost twice her size. Very odd behavior for these fish -- thought it might be something related to mating since Major Tom is new(ish) to the tank.

Hello, TheQuarry.

I've read up on all your info and see that the 'nice' tech at the lfs was where your tank got sent off-course. The combo of meds have, as you say, messed up your cycle. The cloudy water you are seeing is sign of a bacterial bloom as it tries to re-establish itself.

With ammonia of 1ppm you will certainly have problems - these fish have been subjected to a battery of meds and are consequently less robust. Ammonia causes damage to fins and often little red pits and sores, too. It also stresses the fish reducing their natural immunity.
25% changes will only reduce 1ppm to 0.75ppm - so I would do a massive w/c, maybe 95%.
Thereafter you should test every day and change water accordingly. Your fish are quite big so their ammonia output will be on the high side. We are still trying to find out from API if ammo-lock works in a similar way to Prime and Amquel (ie does it leave the ammonia available to the beneficial bac's , or not?) but API have still not responded to my email. I would be happier using either of these products to detoxify the lower amounts until this is confirmed.

Should your fish have developed HITH disease, then MMeds which he is already taking are the right treatment for that disease. I think it is more likely that the ammonia has weakened the slimecoat and made opportunistic fungi and bac's able to attack the area of new wen growth. They are already on med food, so here's what I would do:
After your large water change, raise salt to 0.1% (1tsp pe gal) Then, try a Hydrogen Peroxide swab to disinfect the wen area. Soak a Q-Tip in HP, then lift the fish to the water-line and gently swab the areas of fungi and redness. Do not get any in the gills or eyes. Let's see how he does with the salt and ammonia kept at bay before thinking about more meds in the tank. With regular water changes and salt, the harmful bacterial levels in the tank will not be able to soar and this may be all that's needed.
For future reference - if you ever have another dropsied fish, avoid Kana-Pro or any other product containing Kanamycin. This drug is nephrotoxic (damages kidney tissue) and once dropsy has set in, the kidneys are already compromised. Avoid that tech like the plague, also!
Right now ammonia is your biggest enemy. It can only be controlledthrough large water changes which with a 40 gal is a huge bore. You could try ordering some Biospira to jump start the cycle again - this might save time and stress.

Let us know how things are shaping up.


PS Hmmm.
An after thought: I wonder if it is possible that Columnaris was the original offender in your tank? This sometimes begins with a single white spot on the head or nose and progresses to sores and trailing white threads. The 'skin tags' you describe, could they be trailing threads? Can you lift the fish just above the water line and get a good look inside his mouth for any sign of redness, swelling or white fluff/threads? Also, take a look at the gills from behind - note what colour they are. Anything from light to dark brown would be a sign of infection - they should be meaty red. A well-focussed photo would be a great help. If it turns out to be Columnaris we may have to switch to Sulfa based drugs - not sure yet, but trying to be thorough. Excuse lengthy post.

Thanks *so much* Pixie for your help! It's just what I needed. I will follow your advice to the t.

I just completed a 90% water change and added back 1 tbs per 5 gal of aquarium salt. Treated Major Tom's wen with some peroxide as well.

Here are images of his wen/condition. From last night through today, I would say it has become 300% worse. It was small yesterday, so whatever this is is moving very very rapidly. This is previous to adding the HP -- it's much whiter now as the HP fights infection.




I am about to test the water and will report back. The fish are all currently in a tub until I can get the water parameters safe.

New water levels:

Ammonia -- STILL at .25 I added AmmoLock because it's all I have here right now
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 0ppm
pH- 7.4

How often should I be testing the water? I plan on heading to the LFS (a different one than I have in the past, thank you) and getting some booster additives to get the cycle sped up.

Also, his gills are red, so he's looking okay in that department at present (fingers crossed).

I am curious what you (Pixiefish) and others think about the photos. I have them in HQ should people want to look closer -- just didn't want to post enormous photos on the board.

Thank you again for the help.

quarry, you and your fish are sure having some problems right now, huh?

The fact that you are showing ammonia and no nitrites does indicate a cycle crash. While you're at the lfs, maybe you should pick up some Prime to use instead of Ammolock. I used Prime all through the cycling process and swear by it. It neutralizes both ammonia and nitrites, which is the next phase you'll be seeing. Just remember that although Prime neutralizes ammonia for 24 hours, it will still give you a reading. It is using the ammonia to colonize bbs, but showing a reading after using it can be confusing.

I don't know about mating, but even docile fish will go after a fish that is weakened or ill sometimes.

The tech at the lfs may have been very nice, but the KanaPro is probably what killed your cycle. My tank stayed cloudy for 10 days and I could hardly see the fish, but once it cleared it was fine.

Good luck. Pixie will never steer you wrong and I hope things work out well.

Vickie,

Thanks for the kind note. These are certainly a couple of weeks to remember. I've missed more work to help my fish than I have on illness the past year

I bought some AmQuel Plus at the store (they didn't carry Prime). I have added it to the tank, but am still getting a positive ammonia reading, though it is lower than 25 and higher than 0. Is this the same deal as Prime (where it will carry a reading for 24 hours)? I hope so

I just placed the fish back into the tank after the massive water change (I had them in a small tub during this process and figured that since the ammonia reading was so high in the previous tank water, it was best to get them back in where the AmQuel was doing its work). They are all staying on the bottom and look pretty stressed from the whole experience. I also went ahead and added some BioChem Stars media to attract back some new colonies of bb.

I will be heading out in a bit to get some Biospira to bring us back around, per Pixie's urging. Unfortunately I have to give my $ to the LFS who originally recommended the Kanapro and started this process. I plan on dashing in and out. If you haven't got something nice to say.... and I wouldn't, not there.

Thanks again Vickie and Pixie... I'm glad to have your help here in week two...

Hi again, The Quarry.

I have asked the other mods/helpers what they think about pics and meds and will wait for their feedback. Is that a now open sore I can see by the white-tuft? This does not look like the inoccuous wengrowth I recognise from my oranda - and you say it appears to be galloping. As your tank has had an enormous amount of meds thrown in, it is important that we get the right med should another be needed.
For now, I recommend testing your water daily - your fish are quite big and you are somewhat overstocked, so ammonia levels can climb quickly. When dealing with bacterial issues also, very regular water changes are extremely important. As is vacuuming the tank floor clear of any waste - poop or uneaten food - bacteria thrive on organic waste. The bacterial count escalates very quickly in an enclosed space.
By the way, what temp is the tank? Also, do you have carbon in the filter?
Let me confer on meds and get back to you - I think we should probably run a water born treatment in addition to the MM's.

Oops! Posted at the same time - good work on water-changing. Try to match temps.

Also -- since the fish are sitting still, I just noticed something that, well, might well explain the chasing about. Gen has small white pimples on his (?) gills (I thought Gen was a girl, but looks like not so much). Might be why Gen was chasing Major Tom Sherman aggressively. Perhaps I should consider changing MTS' name? Does the presence of the pimples mean that things are set to occur or can they be present without proper mating occuring? I just finished reading this: http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/breeding.html and thought maybe that could be a theory for the clouded water as well. No eggs anywhere, however.

Nothing changes the very aggressive infection on MTS' wen at this point -- but I am curious if some of the steps I have recently taken (like raising the temperature in a tank that never had a heater before) might have inadvertantly started something unintended.

Hey Pixie,

The sore on Major Tom's head is not "open", but rather resembles a skinned knee or the like. He held very still during administration of the HP.

I have three goldfish in a 40 US gal tank, so I think I'm stocked correctly, yes? During the major water change, I actually excavated the water via vaccuum so that the tank was as clean as possible. Yes, there is currently carbon (recently added BioZorb) in the filter -- I assumed that it was alright when I was only administering MetroMeds and nothing in the water directly. Should I continue a 25% water change daily? Or only do a water change based on the daily test readings? Tank is currently at 67 degrees - no heater running, so it fluctuates a little with temp of my home. But, I live in the Pacific Northwest, so it generally stays pretty cool. Temps matched perfect during the water changes - I'm a real stickler for that

Thank you again for taking the time and giving your expertise to me and my remaining fish. Very lucky to have your help. I owe you big!

Hi - it's way past bedtime here so I hope I don't overlook anything.

First I think it is likely one of the columnaris strains, so I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest Triple Sulfa (made by Mardel, like the Maracyns)
Columnaris can persist in water for up to 32 days when the hardness is 50ppm or more. The presence of carbon in the system increases the survival of this disease in hard water. With a PH of 7.4, your GH is likely to be more than 50ppm. Do you have a KH/GH kit? No matter if not - we'll assume it is above 50ppm. So, I'd pull the carbon out for now - it is not essential and many people here only use it to strip out meds after treatment.
In addition, the raising of temps accelerates the bacteria and also induces mating behaviour,
Unless you can see eggs, the cloudiness is most probably down to bacterial bloom as the cycle tries to re-boot.

Re stocking; the commons really need 20gals each and the fancy 10g - so technically you're a little over, but not too much of an issue at this point.

I think 25% is a good daily w/c target now that you have done a 100%, however do test every day in case levels climb above safe limits. By using Amquel you can detoxify the lower amounts between changes. Meds will not work with an ammonia presence, so you will have to juggle. Hopefully you'll get hold of some BioSpira which will solve your problem. If not, you could remove your filter media and use zeolite/ammochips for the duration of the treatment to solve this dilemma.
NB. The nessler kits (gold/brown colours) will give you a false reading - the AmQuel interferes with the colour reagent. Salicylate testers (yellow/green) will be accurate.

Glad you did the HP swab - well done. Don't repeat it; it's a one time treatment.

OK I'm seeing triple so I'll check in again tomorrow.

Hi Pixiefish et al,

I just wanted to give a quick updated. I purchased the Triple Sulfa yesterday as well as the Biospira. Removed the carbon from the tank and am continuing the MetroMeds. Major Tom's wen is still pretty gnarly. The affected areas have turned white and the deterioration is continuing. I will take additional photos this afternoon and send them along. He is moving around, seems very content. His tankmates, as well, seem fine. No behavioral changes.

I added AmQuel again yesterday since I was still showing an ammonia reading of 25. Am about to do another water test to check parameters again. The cloudiness in the water has pretty much dissipated. I would say it's slightly hazy, like after a water change, but not bad at all.

More updates in a bit. Thanks for checking in and for the guidance.

Just did testing. Ammonia remained at 25. I did a 25% water change (added back aquarium salt and 1 packet triple sulfa), tested again. Still at 25. All other parameters fine.

Does the AmQuel give a false positive reading in the first 24 hours? Should I continue to add every 24 hours? I need this ammonia down and am concerned about the toll of yet another major water change. Gen continues to show black spotting on her fins from ammonia burn healing. There was a new spot today I am hoping that Biospira will kick in soon

Larry - I just wanted to say that I am sorry that you are having trouble again so soon. I hope that everything gets straightened out quickly.

I use AmQuel+ and have found that the manufacturer has a number of useful articles on their website. Here is one that talks about AmQuel+ and water test kits:
http://www.kordon.com/kordon/test_kit_movi..._kit_movie.html

It says that if you wait 10 minutes after adding AmQuel+ that you should get accurate readings for ammonia and nitrites (i.e. lower values after adding). If you don't get results that make sense, the AmQuel people recommend replacing your test kit.

Take care.

Well done for getting on top of the meds quickly.
Which test kit do you have? I posted about it in my last reply. Assuming you have a yellow/green one, the de-toxified ammonia still registers on the tester as it does not disinguish between toxic and harmless.
Do not worry that water changes take a toll - this is a fallacy; fish in fact benefit from large changes (provided they are temp-matched and de-chlorinated). It relieves them of toxicity. However, by using Amquel you should be able to de-toxify the lower amounts in order to juggle the meds.

Sorry for the delay in responding. Thank you for the updates on the testing -- I have a test that should be showing no ammonia (yellow/green), but it's still an issue in the tank and I am continuing to do water changes and add the AmQuel.

More pressing though -- the fish's wen looked to be stabilizing (was less irritated, though was turning white and seemed to be healing). Now it seems to be regressing and eating its way across the back of his wen, moving forward. There seems to be additional "rot" since last night and more small red bumps have surfaced.

The front of the wen seems to be separating as well. He has a new white spot on the front of his wen that wasn't there before...

I am on round two of the meds, but am getting concerned. Are we on the right track here? Anything I need to be doing differently?

Currently plan is to do a 50% water change today (to control that damned ammonia) and continue with the Triple Sulfa. Major Tom is still eating very well, very animated, no exhausted in the least. His bowel movements are normal and I am still feeding the entire tank MetroMeds. I just want to see my tank healthy again. This has been a very long three weeks.

Just did a 60% water change.

Ammonia still present at .5 now (yes, it's going up -- I guess I am fighting the initial cycle still).

Added AmQuel -- hoping it works because one of my fish continues to show ammonia burns on her back fins.

Added 1 tsp per gallon returned to the tank, temps matching. Tank is steady at 67 degrees.

Four doses of Triple Sulfa added (first day of second round).

All other parameters within normal ranges. pH at 7.4.

I have attempted some photos to show what is currently happening with Major Tom. These pictures aren't as clear as I'd like, but you can see the red spotting caused by the bacterial attack here in picture one (see inset). It is very "hamburger-like" back in there, across the entire back of the wen.




In the photo below, you can see where the wen is separating -- prior to this infection, there was no divide in his wen, so it has almost split into two halves. There's a whitish glow about the wen at this point.



Maybe these photos can help further explain the issues with Major Tom Sherman. Thanks, as always, for any help.

Deterioration continues. Is it possible that this could be a fungus instead of a bacterial infection? Does a fungus act similarly (will it eat through parts of the body)?

Wondering if anyone has any thoughts -- I am concerned because I think, in another week, his wen will be gone if things don't turn around. Continuing with AmQuel, water changes, Triple Sulfa. The pictures don't do it justice -- it looks really awful. One thing: it seems to be turning white now. Dont know if that is a med interaction or if it's good or bad...

IMPORTANT UPDATE: Also, is it possible for me to treat for other possible causes (fungus, parasites) concurrently? I'm just getting very concerned since everything we are doing is antibacterial (metromeds and triple sulfa) and nothing's giving. Biscuit, one of her tankmates, I just noticed has a VERY LONG WHITE THREAD TRAIL coming from her body. I will post a photo here in a couple of minutes. Generally, that's parasitic in nature, yes?

Still can't get a clear picture of the wen, but I was able to get a photograph of the white trail from tankmate Biscuit.




Thoughts? All she (and the rest of the tank) has had for almost two weeks is MetroMeds....

I would continue with the current treatment, Thequarry - stringy white poop like that also indicates a bacterial issue. The MMs will take care of that, and sometimes it takes the full 30 days for it to take effect. Wen still deteriorating, yes? Which one of your fish has this beautiful, long flowing tail?

Ranchugirl,

Thanks for the note. That's Major Tom Sherman's tail Quite the odd little fish. Yes, the wen is still deteriorating. 30 days, eh? Good to know. I was just concerned because I had no idea on the timelines and well, I just worry that I'm going to lose another fish. Would you say that I continue to purchase the Triple Sulfa? As of tomorrow, I will have gone through two entire treatments (two boxes) and the directions say to only repeat the cycle twice. Should I plan to purchase more today?

Thank you, again.

The 30 day treatment was in regards to the MMs - I have not used the Triple Sulfa before, so I'll leave that answer to Pixiefish.

Thanks, Ranchugirl.

Pixiefish, should I go for a third round of the Triple Sulfa? I'm out as of this evening -- but can run and pick some more up tomorrow.

All three fish are starting to act a bit lethargic. Nothing terribly noticeable to most people, but since I know them well, they seem to be bottom-sitting more than usual. Their poor systems -- it's been almost a month of meds nonstop... But Major Tom's wen still needs treating...

Thanks for any guidance. I just want them well and appreciate the help.

Anyone with thoughts? Should I do a third round on Triple Sulfa? Switch meds? Help!

Thanks for any assistance.

Does it mean that if there are brownish bits (not ammonia burns) in the wen that things may be growing back? Is this a positive sign? A sign of something else?

I have purchased yet another box of the Triple Sulfa and started round three today. (They had one day off).

I was hoping to hear from someone on the board (Pixiefish? Other mods?) I am unable to send private messages on the board due to restrictions I guess and I am feeling a little lost. The other two fish are still doing some bottom sitting, but are generally okay. I guess I just need to know if I am overdosing my animals or if I should try some other type of antibiotic.

Am continuing with quarter water changes daily and AmQuel as necessary. Salt added back with each water change. Continuing MetroMeds.

Please respond. I'm sorry to have so many needs as a new poster here, but I worry about these fish and want them well again. I really don't want to go back to my LFS and ask them for advice since the last time I did that I lost a 7 year old fish.

One of my other fish is now developing popeye.
Can someone please respond?

I guess I will go to my LFS and get their advice

I'm going with the Maracyns, moving off the sulfa.

Tank murky from the maracyn, fish exhausted.

Quarry, I am so sorry that nobody has responded to your posts lately! Pixie is off at the moment, so I'll try my best to figure out what to do next.

Which Maracyns are you using I, II or Plus? The fish with the popeye is not the one with the deteriorating wen, is it? The Maracyn will help with the popeye, especially if you use Maracyn II, which is specificially for dropsy. Your fish doesn't have dropsy, but the Popeye treatment is essentially the same one - Maracyn II, medicated food (preferably Metromed), and higher temps of around 84 degrees with additional oxygen supply.

The tank will often get cloudy from the Maracyn treatment - that is perfectly normal. However, your fish shouldn't get exhausted from it. Are all of them a bit more sluggish, or just a few?

In regards to the brownish spot on the wen, it shouldn't be anything bad. Whenever my fish (and I had one years ago with Hole-in-the-head disease) developed brown on its wen, the deterioration had stopped. How is that going - nothing new falling off, eating away?

Again, I am very sorry you felt all alone here - that usually doesn't happen. Your fish problems are just as important as all the others in the 911 section.

If I may peek in here a second to mention that I've read that the Maracyn II medication needs to be used in the dark - no tank lights - as the light deactivates the medication. I'm not sure if it includes the other Maracyn products, or just the Maracyn II.

I've been reading your thread, but with limited fish knowledge, I felt it best to leave it to the "professionals". I do wish you the best of luck with your fish, though!!

Debbie

Debbie, thank you for reminding me of the darkness of the tank - completely forgot abou that!

Larry - How are things? I am sorry you don't feel like you've gotten as much assistance this time around with your fish health concerns. It seems like a lot of the experts haven't been around as much as usual lately. I have not posted because I am not knowledgeable enough to help. I have been concerned about you, however. I hope that everything is okay with you and your fish! Let us know.

Hi The Quarry. I hope you'll post soon with an update summary and I'll check back here in case...I am so sorry you were left crying in the woods

We have had 3 Mods on vacation this last few weeks (Pixie was one of those) and they are all returning next week. That's the unfortunate way of an internet board. Too much help or not enough at any one time.

I skimmed through this thread and may have missed a lot but I believe personally you may have had the wrong water meds (no progress) and am unsure why the whole tank is being treated...I thought it was only one fish here...but anyway. That stringy poop..stress too can cause it and nothing is more stressful than medication in the water unless its spot on.

If its just the beautiful orange and black oranda wen problem, I would be tempted to try clear fresh, perfect water + light salt + a topical application. But I am waiting to hear back from you if any of the other fish have any other symptoms, behavioral or other...

How are things now, Quarry?