Good morning....continuing with trying to get ammo levels down and decided to test the change water I had prepped last night for wc this morning. Tank readings this morning are ph 7.8, ammo .50, nitrite 0, nitrate 5.0. The change water read at pH 8, ammo 1, nitrite 0, nitrate 0. Do I need to be treating the change water for ammo besides chlorine and chloramine removal before putting it in the tank? Seems to me that since I've been prepping the wc the same way and discovered it's probably had ammo in it, then the ammo levels in the tank haven't been properly diluted all along...

Hopefully, somebody can advise me as I'm worried the tank reading this morning indicates a wc and the sooner the better. Should I be treating wc with Amquel+ before using it???

Thanks,
Carla

Chloramine is chlorine bonded to ammonia. If you have cloramines in your municipal water (and they are becoming the choice of most cities), then a straight dechlorinator (liquid or activated charcoal filter) will result in ammonia in the water.

If you use a water treatment that says it removes chloramines as well as chlorine, then you will have bonded ammonia giving you a false positive test. Bonded ammonia is harmless to fish. Ammonia does not naturally occur in municipal water, so any reading you get is from the chloramine breakdown.

In either case, the ammonia introduced by a 10% water change will be quickly dealt with by a healthy bio-filter, and you have nothing to worry about.

Chloramines in municipal water are a real pain in the a**. They trigger allergic reactions in some people and screw up our water quality testing, as home test kits do not differentiate between "good" and "bad" ammonia.

When in doubt, do the water change. If the water is properly treated, it will improve the quality of your tank.

Hi Carla,

I was curious what you use to treat your water with now? If you're not regularly using something that binds ammonia (like Prime or Amquel +), then you should. The cycle can still use the ammonia this way, and it is safe for Frank.
I believe Prime needs to be re-dosed after 24 hours, and I'm not sure how Amquel + works. (I have never used them - as my tank was cycled without fish)
I know there are others who use these, so maybe someone with more expertise on them can give their 2¢.

Debbie

Hi folks!

Thank you to all for the explanation and advice...makes sense to me now! I did go ahead with wc and treated cw with Amquel+ to be on the safe side - seems I was on the mark to do so...

To answer your question, Debbie, we've always used Big Al's Multi-Purpose water conditioner (hope I don't get in trouble for mentioning store name) with both tanks. It says nothing about being able to bind ammonia, but does remove chlorine and neutralizes chloramine. Directions on the Amquel+ are to use in well aerated tank and only one application in 24 hr period. There is plenty of movement of water from the filter cascade and a large bubble bar.

Until Frank got sick, I had NO idea about ammonia in the water nor it's consequences. Unfortunately, he's suffered most of them including burns on his fins, ulcer in his mouth, and a cheesy sore on his flank near his tail - all of which seem to have healed since getting on the ball with water conditions and treating with medicated food and Melafix. I've become absolutely paranoid about keeping the water as pristine as possible.

I welcome any suggestions as to what it best to use to treat the water before addition to the tank. For now, I will continue to treat the water with the Amquel+ and toss out the other conditioner since it doesn't seem to have all the necessary abilties. That being said, I'm sorry I didn't buy the big bottle of Amquel+.

Cheers! I'll keep you posted

You're doing great, Carla!
I looked up Big Al's water conditioner, and saw that it has aloe vera in it. That's very much like the API's Stress Coat that I used to use. I read in so many places that the aloe vera - while promoting the slime coat - also coats the fish's gills, making it harder for them to breath. Some people say it's great - others don't like it. I went the "better safe than sorry" route, and changed to a basic API water treatment that does everything the Stress Coat does, but without the aloe vera.
Keep up the good work, and the daily reports!

Debbie

Thanks Debbie!

We don't know what we would have done without all the experience and knowledge we got here from all of you. I should note that I was aware of what ammonia could do, I use it to wash the walls and stuff - just didn't know that it builds up in tank water and no clue that goldies produce so much of it! Once I discovered that, I was totally horrified and couldn't act fast enough to set things right.

I'm making a pet run tomorrow for supplies for our other "masters" and will get the API water conditioner (a big one). We did another water change tonight of 50% to cover for any spike there may be during the night. I'll test in the morning and see how things are and let you know.

Have a good night...

Carla

I just want to say quick that I use the API water conditioner in an already cycled tank. It might be best for you to stick with the Amquel + or Prime so that you have the dangers of an ammonia or nitrite spike covered for Frank.
Nothing beats water changes, as you know, but sometimes they can spike when you're not home or not expecting it. It's best to keep him safe.
Thanks for keeping us updated! I don't always reply when things are right - but I always check in on you!

Debbie

Thanks Debbie Not to worry, I had planned to continue with the Amquel+ until the tank cycles through since I know it's working to keep things under control and I've still got about 1/3 bottle left and don't want to waste it. I figured I was going to be in the store anyway and might as well pick it up so it's on hand.

Now, I know we discussed removing stones from the tank before, but when hubby was doing the vacuuming and wc last night, there was just too much gunk being stirred up trying to get through to clean it all - so we took out 2/3. With everything I've learned here, I knew I had put way too much in to begin with and it wasn't getting as clean as it needed to get - now there is just one layer of river stones, with some bare spots. It was still so messy after removing them, that we did another wc to help clear it. Have to admit it does look better. I can hear Frank tossing stones around as I type and I'm across the room

I think removing the stones along with the back to back wc was beneficial - water was good this morning with pH 7.6, ammo .25, nitrite 0 and nitrate 5.0 - 10. (the colour match is not at 5 and not at 10 but in between on the card) The tank is clear as well and Frank was doing his "feed me now" water ballet when I came over to check things. So, it seems we're making progress at long last.

Now for the really good news.....my gf who hasn't seen Frank for a couple of weeks dropped by and she said he's really grown and looks much more vibrant with his colour and activity. Since sick fish don't grow, this was a delight to hear!

Cheers! Have a great day and thanks for keeping check on us!

Carla

Hi Carla

If there was that much debris in the gravel, then removing some was a good move. It would just produce more ammonia in there. When I hear "river stones", I think of the large earth tone stones totally forgetting that there is gravel river stones too. Did you happen to put what you took out in a stocking or mesh bag? It would keep the rocks with the bb's in there, and still give you the cleaner bottom. It does seem like your cycle is just about there, though - with nitrates showing so strong! When you use media from another tank, sometimes you don't get nitrites. Let's keep our fingers crossed that this will be the case for you, also!

I'm so glad that Frank is doing so well that he has such a noticeable improvement! That's wonderful news!

I have to correct myself about my water conditioner. I thought it was API, but it's Top Fin that I use. Here is a picture of it. Really, any type is probably fine - so long as it removes the chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals.

You're doing a great job with Frank. I'm sure he appreciates the love and care that he gets from you! Good move with the extra water change after the debris was stirred up. Toxic gases can sometimes build up in deep gravel, so you removed anything harmful.

Debbie


The link didn't work... maybe that'll work..?

Hi Debbie

Yup, it was pretty disgusting! That kind of bottom layering is okay for the other tank as it has an ugf as well as the Aquaclear 50 running on it, but definitely not suitable for Frank and his requirements.....

I'm glad you mentioned the nitrites....I was wondering when I'd have a spike of them since this is part of the process and indicates what stage the cycle is at....the last time there was a reading for them was on March 26 at 8:00 a.m.and that was .25, they've been at 0 since then - can you tell I've been keeping a log as well as picking up the lingo??? . If I've learned correctly, they spike before the nitrates appear...

I also forgot to mention that I added another media sponge to the filter basket to give the bb more surface area to collect on. Don't worry, it was washed really well in the tank water we took out before I added it. As for the river stone/gravel we removed, it was put in a strainer and left to dry in a bucket - I can always use it in my houseplants for decoration and drainage.

I'm crossing my fingers, too, that we're almost done with the cycling. Thanks for all the encouragement!

Cheers for now and have a great day!

Carla

Ooops! Saw the pic of water conditioner after I posted....I recognize it well as I've seen it on the store shelves....I'll get some to have on hand when the Amquel+ runs out.

Carla

I'm glad that you're keeping a log! I did that too! I've gone back to look at it many times while helping people or encouranging them, or what have you. "Mine did took this long! Stop worrying" type of thing.

The stones will be pretty around plants. I wish I could grow plants, but they die of fright when they see me. My daughter and son in law just went on vacation this past Saturday, and along with her two cats - she brought me 3 plants to tend to. I sure hope they're still alive when they get back!! I've watered them with fish tank water, so at least they're getting fed well.

More media is always a plus! I've seen it said many times on here to pack it full of whatever you can! You've been studying up quite a bit, so you've probably seen it too!

Fingers crossed for 0 ammonia soon!!

Debbie

Hi Debbie! I'd be waving at you, but don't know where the the little wavey guy is on here.

I'm not sure if I read about packing the media or not - quite possible I did and it got filed away with all the other info and it came to mind when I was doing a little inventory and organizing and saw I still had 2 new sponges for the Aquaclear 20 left.... Hubby likes to buy in bulk for all our pets and we had stocked up, then the Aquaclear 50 was on sale, so I bought it for the 20 gal and put the smaller one away. Good thing I didn't toss it!

As for my plants, they're getting fed pretty well too with all the water that's come out of the tank!

I did a 25% water change just to vacuum a little and I certainly got better results with removing debris now that most of the stones have been removed. I think in some cases, less really is more....

I'll read water after dinner and post results - I'm starting to look like a mad chemist with all my little test tubes, pipettes, syringes and notepad... .

Cheers!
Carla

My Hubby calls me a chemist when he's home and I test the water.

You can get more emoticons by clicking where it says "Show All" when you first click on the emoticon drop down menu. You'll be amazed at how many are in there!!!

Every so often, I either find new ones, or new ones are added! I love them!! Have fun looking through them!!

Debbie

Hi Debbie...well, I did find all the icons and then lost them... Oh well....

I have noticed people posting tap water results and temps...I should have though to do that earlier too....straight from the tap is pH 7.4, ammo .25, nitrite .25 and nitrate 5.0. Tank temp is always between 77 and 79 degrees....

Carla

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about water chemistry, but I'm baffled. You said these were your results straight from the tap, but the water you had ready for your water change yesterday had these numbers:


I wonder why there's such a difference in the nitrite and nitrate numbers from tap to treated...? The ammonia is more than likely due to the chloramines, and pH can fluctuate from tap to tank. Maybe a water expert can explain that one - I hope.

Let's hope someone peeks in.

Debbie

Good morning Debbie

I'm glad I posted the tap water results...I took them on March 21, and again yesterday. I did notice that I've had tank readings almost identical to what the water is straight from the tap.

My water results this morning were pH 7.6, ammo .25, nitrite 0, nitrate between 5 -10. Did a 50% water change and will test water again before I go in for afternoon shift.

Frank continues to do well, so I have to presume the water situation is under control while the cycling is still in progress. We were planning to get him a 30 gal tank, but hubby says there is more than enough room for a 55 gal and to start looking for one. I figure I should have one by mid April, and doing a fishless cycle, Frank can be in his new home by the end of May if all goes well.

So, that's my water report for now, I'll check back later to see if somebody has peeked in to comment on the tap water readings.

Cheers and have a great day!

Debbie,

I need to re-dose the water with Prime after 24 hours of the first dose? I normally dose the tap water with Prime once I filled the tank and I will use the water for w/c in a few days (definitely more than 24 hours). Is this going to be a problem?

Good Morning, Carla!
A new 55 gallon!! That'll be great!! A fishless cycle will be great for Frank, too!
I see that you have found the emoticon treasure trove once again!
Your nitrates are still a bit higher in the tank than from the tap, so that's a plus.
The cycle will grow to accommodate the ammonia in the tap water, so that isn't really a problem.


Vince - Just to clarify your post, you set out water in a separate tank that you use for your water changes, correct? Your cycle has probably already adapted for the ammonia as well, but if it would make you feel better, why not add the Prime just before you do your water change - instead of when you set it out?

I hope you both have a great day!

Debbie

Thanks Debbie. But I dont understand why Prime needs to be redose.. Does Prime removes the Chlorine and other chemicals from the water? or it just neutralized them? Neutralize means the same as remove as I assume.

I noticed there are some clear solidified substance sitting at the buttom of the water storage tank after I treated it with Prime. What are they? Residues from Prime?

Vince,

Prime removes the chlorine, but binds the ammonia - either ammonia in the water, or in the form of chloramine. It holds it so that it isn't harmful to the fish, but can be processed by the bb's. After 24 hours, the ammonia is released. I suppose it can only hold it for that long, or the "binding chemical" wears off.
I have no idea what the clear solidifed substance could be. I have never used Prime, so I have no experience with it. I'm sorry I can't help you with that one.
Perhaps if you started another thread - asking about the substance, someone might be familiar with it? I hope so, so you won't have to worry about it.

Debbie

there is a good thread on prime you can use search to find it ..the thread has loads of info

Hi Carla!
I haven't heard from you in a few days - and I'm getting worried about you and Frank!!
How are things going? I hope they're still going well!

I just wanted to check in! Take care, and say Hello to Frank for me!

Debbie

Is this ammonia harmful to the fish? I am just curious...

Like I've said before, I'm not experienced with Prime, so I can only go by my own personal opinions. It would probably be best to add the prime to the change water just before you change. Why subject the fish to the ammonia from the chloramines? If it's bound by the Prime, then it's safe for the fish. If it has been released because the 24 hours has expired, then you're exposing this to the fish... so I would think that it's potentially harmful, yes. Although your cycle will consume the ammonia, I don't know how long that process takes.

There are other threads on Prime that may have all of your answers - from people who use the product.

Debbie

Is everything okay there with Frank and everyone, Carla? I haven't heard from you for a few days...

Debbie

Hi Debbie! Thanks for asking about us...

My apologies for not posting the past few days. Work has been nuts and I've been getting called in plus my regular shifts and haven't had much time to post anything.

Frank continues to do well despite the tank not being fully cycled yet...still doing water changes. This morning the water read .25 ammo, pH 7.5, nitrite 0, nitrate 10. We've been doing a 50% change every other day, I just did one this morning after I tested the water. The ammo hasn't gone above .25 all week, the nitrites were 0, ph was steady at 7.6 and until this morning, the water was closer to 0-5 for nitrates - today they were a definite 10. I think we're in the home stretch...

Next weekend we're both off for 3 days and will get the new tank and start up a fishless cycle We don't mind the work of cycling with fish in the tank, but it's the worry the fish are doing alright through it all that's so stressful.

Hope you have a great day, and I'll post in a few days as now I have to get some errands done and then off to work!

Carla

Good Morning Debbie!

Good news, good news, good news....I think the tank has finally cycled Water readings last night were pH 7.5, ammo 0, nitrite 0, nitrates 0. This morning they read the same. So my question now is, how often do we test the water, and how often do we need to change it?

Carla

Hi Carla

Those pesky .25ppm of ammonia are finally gone!! My only thought is that you said your nitrates were 0, but they were almost at 10 the other day, so maybe it was just after a water change? Or maybe a typo? But I think you're about there, too!
When I put Dot in the big tank, I tested every day, and when that was okay for about a week I went to every other day, then every 4 days, then every week. Now I test about every other week.
I do water changes weekly. 50% to 75%, regardless of the readings. (My nitrates are usually between 5 - 10) I do a larger change once a month, unless I have things going on that kept me from doing a w/c (like this week). I just did a 75% today.
You can do them weekly, or smaller ones twice a week - that's up to you. If you go a few days in a row with 0 ammonia and nitrites, then you should be cycled!!

Debbie

Hi Debbie

The reading was for 0-5 for nitrates, but it wasn't really a match to 5. The good news is last night they tested at 10 and again this morning. The pH has remained at 7.5, ammo at 0 and nitrites at 0.

Your schedule sounds very good to stay on top of things and I will follow that. I'll keep you posted as to how things are progressing and about the new tank - no doubt I'll have questions again.

Thanks to all the help here, Frank has mended, we're better fish parents, and feel up to the challenge of taking on a bigger tank for him to have some friends.

Have a great day!

Carla

Well then, Congratulations on your cycled tank!!! It's so nice when it's worry free!!

I just (finally) bought a new fish to give my Dot a tankmate! It's in a quarantine tank right now. Tiny little bugger.

Once you get your new tank cycled, you can put Frank in there, and use the old one to quarantine your new one! Being already cycled makes it so much easier!!

Keep us posted! I'm so glad everything worked out so well for all of you!!!

Debbie

Carla -- Congratulations on your cycled tank!!! I bet that you are so relieved and happy!

All together, how many days did your cycle take? I have kind of been keeping an eye on your thread because I think that we started around about the same time -- I am on day 30 (not that I have been counting or anything ). I ask because I am getting SO IMPATIENT with the fact that I am still doing 25-50% water changes every day to manage my ammonia and nitrite, despite the fact that I only have 3 fish in 55 gallons. I am interested to know because I am hoping that I am almost there too!!!

Have a nice weekend & enjoy setting up your new tank!

Kristen

Hi Debbie....Yay!, Yay!, Yay! for us.... Again, thank you so much for all your help and encouragement

Not to worry, I'll be on here asking questions - Thursday we pick up the new tank set up - 36L x 19H x 13W approximately 39.5 gal capacity. As you know, we'll be doing the fishless cycle this time around, so I'll be swimming here constantly checking to make sure I'm doing things right. I think I'll be in the tanks and equipment and set up forum for a bit.

I'm excited for Frank and can't wait to see his reaction when he's in his new home.
Anyway, gotta scoot off to work, I'll see you out here later.

Cheers and have a great day!

You're funny!
You'll find loads of information on fishless cycling in the tanks & equipment section. Even my looooooong thread on my fishless cycle. There is also this bit of info off of the main page: Fishless Cycle
You know what you could do now, is put some extra media into your current filter that you could switch to the new tank when you start it up. That will help tremendously - as you know from Frank's current tank!
I was glad to help you out in any way that I could. I'm glad everything has turned out so well!!

Debbie

Good morning Debbie and Kristen! My tank readings this morning are good at pH7.6, ammo 0, nitrite 0 and nitrates at 5., so I think it's safe to say we're cycled for sure!

Yes, I was thinking to use some of the media from the other tank to put in the filter of the new one - see how well you guys taught me! Frank's filter is packed as much as it will take, so I will have enough to add to the new one and help it along.

Thanks Kristen for the congrats on our finally cycled tank. To answer your question, we started cycling on the last week of February - so almost 7 wks.....I know that's not what you were hoping to hear. Not sure how much of the thread you've followed, but basically hubby cleaned out - and I do mean "cleaned" as in bio wheel and all - Frank's 5 gal hexagon that he'd been living in on my desk with no problems for about 18mths. Frank got ammonia poisoning as a result and unfortunately, we didn't know what was causing him all his problems - bottom sitting, burned fins, gasping, swimming with his mouth agape all the time, and a cheesy like pimple near his tail, frayed fins, red streaks..... Turned out he had an ulcer in his mouth behind the gill opening.....we thought he swallowed a stone...anyway, all a result of poor water conditions.

Anyway, long story short, I ran around to fish stores and pet stores for help and got so much conflicting advice and put this in and that in etc....none of them were giving me the advice I was reading out here. We thought he was a goner and I started searching online for ways to humanely euthanize him and I discovered this site...which I can't say enough for by the way! So, I read, read, read and once I realized what was wrong - I immediately, put him in a little 2 gal of treated water with Melafix and zipped off to get him a 10 gal tank, ditched the gravel, and bought oodles of medicine, water conditioners, etc. We salted his new tank for a few days, then eventually changed all the salt out and started the Melafix and antibiotic food. Once we knew what caused his distress (basically us), we put everything we had into trying to make him better - my husband felt so bad and it didn't matter what needed to be done, we'd try it.

However, Frank didn't seem to be doing as well as I'd hoped and I joined up here so I could actually ask what we needed to do for him and this is where I learned WHY a tank had to cycle - I knew it had to, but I didn't know the whole process . I also discovered Amquel+ on here...thank goodness...No wonder Frank was slow to respond, although we had Frank in clean treated water, it still had ammo in it!!! With guidance from everybody here, we changed water until the cows came home, did water reads till we looked like mad chemists, and watched and dosed with medicine like ICU nurses - I think if we could have taken his pulse, we would have. This poor fish had to endure not only being ill, but also trying to heal in a tank that was cycling. Anyway, this thread got started because I decided to test the treated cw before I put used it and discovered it had ammonia in it - but it turned out that it would read as such because the Amquel+ binds the ammo - so it's still there, but doesn't hurt the fish. Again, I don't know what I would have done without all the knowledge people have shared here.

Okay, my long story short, is kind of long...but the point is hang in there! I have to admit, last week I was starting to wonder if the tank would ever cycle.... but it has at last! The result has been worth all the work - Frank is doing great, he's grown like crazy, and as a friend noted when she'd seen him first sick, and then two weeks later, sick fish don't grow. But as I've said before, I won't put another fish through cycling - it was more stressful worrying about him, than doing all the physical stuff.

Now, I don't know if this is a factor - but the last week before the tank cycled, I had done two wc of 75% to try and get rid of those low ammo reads and it seemed that the tank "kicked in" after that. I know that's alot in a 55 gal, but it might be worth a try???

Debbie, I'll be reading your loooong thread on fishless cycling - and I'll have questions. I've got this week to read, take notes, and get prepared before we pick up Frank's bigger pad. As excited as I am to get his new home set up, I'm not willing to rush anything. Frank is stable now, his present home is stable, and I'm sure he will be fine in there for a month or so.

Hang in there Kristen, I'm sure your tank will be cycled in no time, you're in the home stretch! I do have pics of Frank, but can't post them on here yet, but as soon as I can, I will do so.

Have a great day, gotta scoot to work now!

Carla

Yes! Give yourself a break from tank maintenance for a while! There's no water changing needed in a fishless cycle (for the most part), but there's the testing and adding of ammonia. You'll actually be seeing those test tubes DRY!! Imagine that!!

Sadly, I lost my new fishy. It wasn't in a "healthy" tank when I bought it, but my daughter insisted that I get it. I'd like to believe that it live a little bit longer with me than it would have if I had left it.

It sure seems like you know just what to do now for a cycle! But ask away if you have any questions at all. I'll help all that I can, and others will too, of course!

I'm so glad that you found Koko's to save Frank! I'll bet Frank is even happier!


Kristen, you'll get there! The only thing needed more than water changes is patience! If you have nitrites, then you're on the right path! Good luck!!

Have a good weekend!

Debbie

I'm sorry to hear your new fish didn't make it Debbie. I'm sure you did all you could for him, he just didn't get into your expert care in time.

Carla

Thank you, Carla. He sure got a lot more love here than he would have if I hadn't bought him.

Say Hi to Frank for me.

Debbie