thanks i looked for prime and they didnt have any that's the best place to go so i think i'm out of luck but i bought some ammo lock to get rid of ammonia if that will help?oh and i had to buy a pond water testing kit becase that was all they had..the man said it would be fine.will it??

I had to order Prime online because no stores in my area carry it, it may be the same for you. Other water conditioners usually work fine, you just need to use more. I've never used ammo lock so I can't really help you there.

The pond kit should be ok if it tests for ammonia, nitrite, pH and nitrate. Those 4 are the essential readings you want to get when cycling your tank.

thanks they didnt have that either..should i add the ammo lock now? or when the ammonia gets to be a problem?? what should the ammonia level be before i add ammo lock? how often do i check water levels??

thankyou

i've been cycling for 2 weeks and having ammonia issues too...i am new at this to, but what i can tell you is i have been dooing water changes everyday to keep the ammonia level as low as possible, i still haven't hit 0, but this morning down to .50...but i did a big water change and cleaned gravel. i have been checking ammonia, ph an nitrite once a day sometime after my water changes. that gives me an idea of where i'm at at what sort of water change i should do next. i was told most your beneficial bacteria are in your filter component (i have a bio-bag) so changing water and occasionally siphoning the gravel are fine...i bought ammo lock too as a back up in case it got out of hand and my fish showed signs of stress...but so far so good right now. my gravel was loaded with debris when i started swishing around it all flew out that's why i opted for a larger water change and better cleaning of gravel...i took my fish out of the tank into a holding place with air stone this time, normally i leave him in.

good luck with it all...it all can be very confusing...i am still trying to figure everything out. personally i don't think the ammo lock will harm anything because what it does is make the ammonia non-toxic to your fish..so it doesn't hurt him...but the ammonia will still be in the tank...and you should still get a reading when testing for it, however long it's in there...but it'll be in a non-toxic state...but still "beneficial" in the cycling process...it will still work for the stages of cycling..from what i understand...you'll have ammonia...maybe high at first..it slowly drops and nitrites will rise...then they will drop and nitrates will rise...you want nitrate but not too high of a number...you don't want ammonia or nitrites...from what i understand it can take 4-6 weeks to get the nitrates...if I am understanding this wrong, please someone correct me.

i've heard that u shouldnt use ammo lock while cycling cause the tank will not cycle when used with it, im not sure if thats true but thats what i've read

Hmm.. interesting. Like Shamu, I heard that you shouldn't use Ammo Lock when cycling a tank. I did a quick bit of searching, and found this API Ammo Lock.

I heard it was a chemical ammonia absorber that wouldn't allow the tank to cycle. It seems to be API's version of Prime. Does anyone here at Koko's use this product? What is our opinion of it?

Debbie

oh..that's a shame... thanks for all the info though

hmmm..that link seems to say what i was trying to say in my previous post. seems to me it's saying that it just makes the ammonia non-toxic to fish until it's broken down by the filter. "Locks up ammonia in a non-toxic form until it can be broken down by the tank's natural biological filter." That to me means it would still be fine to use during cycling cause it will still be going through the cycle process but ensuring that the ammonia won't harm your fish. Maybe I am wrong. Since I am new to this I don't have first hand experience either. I probably wouldn't use it though unless your ammonia is above 1.0...if below that then water changes should help ( although I have been sticking to water changes and it was hanging at 1.0 until this morning...i wonder what I'll get tomorrow). If you reach 4.0 then maybe i'd consider using it...but I would probably try a water change first...that is the best way so they say...less chemicals added the better. But in an emergency..like your fish is showing signs of ammonia stress then it might be useful.

oops - I'm sorry! Thank you Holly! I didn't elaborate on what my link said. I did say that it seems to be API's version of Prime, but I didn't explain.

Like you said, Holly - if your ammonia gets over 1ppm and you can't do a large enough change, or your number of fish quickly raises your ammonia level, then Ammo Lock would be good. It doesn't say how long it holds the ammonia there, maybe someone else knows? Prime is 24 hours, that's all I know.

It might be good all the time, but at a teaspoon per 10 gallons, that's quite a bit of product. I guess it's a personal choice.

I was surprised because I thought that it was a zeolite type of product.

I'm glad you caught that, it seems nicoleclaire thought I meant it was no good.

Debbie

my bottle of ammo lock says to add every 2 days until ammonia is no longer detected. (this may happen only when your cycle moves on is what i am guessing) it says if your ammonia continues to be detected after 7 days (which if your doing this during a cycle obviously a cycle tanks longer then 7 days as I have learned)..anyway...if after 7 days the ammonia is still detected after you've been adding ammo lock every 2 days then it tells you to do a partial water change and check your biological filter and reduce feeding...basically all the things you'd want to try before using this and really this should probably only be used if your ammonia level is at a very high toxic number and all that isn't lowering it...it will help the fish during the cycle process...if after 7 days of using ammo lock your ammonia is still high then do a water change and all again...but i agree...it seems to be a personal choice on these sort of additives...some say use 'em, some say don't...some think they help, others don't...so i have found i have gotten conflicting tips in regards to all this water stuff...basically you gotta do what you feel comfortable with...that is the least stressful on the fish and keeps them happy and healthy during the cycling process and beyond. I am learning a lot and next time I'll be better educated on how to do this.

Ok...i am confused here...i keep reading posts from people saying that ammo lock isn't good during cycling because it gets rid of the ammonia that the tank needs in cycling, to feed the bacteria or whatever. But this is not true. The bottle and the website both say that ammo lock is a detoxifier. It does not take the ammonia out of the tank. It only makes the ammonia non-toxic so it doesn't harm your fish...to me this means it would be a good thing during cycling since you're likely to have ammonia issues in the beginning. I have been doing a lot of research on this ammonia issue since i am having issues and from what i can tell things like ammo carb and ammo chips (zeolite type stuff) remove ammonia...but ammo lock is not that. if you read the description of ammo lock on the website it tells you it puts the ammonia into a non-toxic state...but the ammonia is still there to feed the bacteria....so in my opinion...if your ammonia level is high during cycling and water changes alone aren't bringing it down fast enough that ammo lock is fine to use because it'll make life easier on your fish during this time..but not alter the cycling process. I just wanted to clear that up...that's how I am understanding what i've read about it. I just didn't want nicole to think that she was harming her fish for using it...i really don't think so.

You want to avoid using products like Ammo-lock from everything I've read. Also it will give you false testing because although it neutralizes the ammonia in the tank it is still present so your tests will show high levels of ammonia when you do your test so often people make the mistake of adding more in.

The best thing is if you're seeing it to go over 0.25 you need to do a water change. I've learned that water changes can solve almost everything - especially due to water params. I don't think ammo-lock goes away besides with water changes.

i am really trying to understand why people are saying the use of ammo lock is bad. i can not see the downside. it doesn't remove ammonia so your tests will continue to show you accurate readings because the ammonia will still be there....it just makes it non-toxic to your fish. from how i see it is that it's protecting your fish from the toxicity of high ammonia...you use it to help your fish while you figure out why it's so high and take steps to correct it. it doesn't say it neutralizes ammonia...it just makes it non-toxic. to me these are different meanings. perhaps people over use it because they don't fully understand what it does. it's important to follow the directions on the bottle..of everything. i have been doing water changes everyday (siphoned gravel a few times too, checked my filter too) to lower my ammonia and i am still not stable...so i am using ammo lock now to make sure it doesn't stress my fish until i can figure out how to get the ammonia down and keep it down.

i am really trying to understand why people are saying the use of ammo lock is bad

Holly - the reason ammo-lock is bad is that it prevents the cycle from progressing. The nitrifying bacteria which colonize the filter media need ammonia to survive; ammo-lock literally locks it away and the bacteria cannot utilize it and consequently die or just do not grow. Products like Prime, however, can detoxify lower levels of ammonia during cycling whilst still leaving it available to the beneficial bacteria.

i am using ammo lock now to make sure it doesn't stress my fish until i can figure out how to get the ammonia down and keep it down.

The only way to keep ammonia down is through water changes - no other way. Once the ammonia passes 0.25 -0.50 a water change is in order. You need to test the params every day and change volume according to the results. If the reading is 0.50ppm a 50% change will still leave it at 0.25, so 75% is a better volume. It is hard work for around 4-6 weeks but once the cycle is complete you can change the water once a week.
I hope this clarifies things for you

Pixie, that's *not true* according to the Ammo Lock information: "Locks up ammonia in a non-toxic form until it can be broken down by the tank's natural biological filter." That's what Holly is saying.


Holly, I think you are completely right, based on what I understand. The only thing I'll disagree with, is usually, with water conditioners, the bound-up ammonia will *not* measure on water tests. So adding something like Ammo Lock should indeed reduce your test results. At least this is true or AmQuel+ and Prime. If something about Ammo Lock says otherwise, then maybe its different.

In my opinion, that's actually a good thing, because you don't want to be measuring the bound ammonia, otherwise how would you really measure how healthy the water conditions were?

i am still not sure. There website says this "Works instantly, in both fresh and saltwater, to detoxify ammonia and remove chlorine and chloramines. Locks up ammonia in a non-toxic form until it can be broken down by the tank's natural biological filter. Eliminates fish stress and promotes healthy gill function. " Isn't this saying it does what you just stated it doesn't do? They are calling it an ammonia detoxifier. Prime states this " Prime™ removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime™ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank's biofilter. Prime™ may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity." Do they not do the same thing? The only thing I can see different is that Prime appears to be a total water conditioner also detoxifying nitrite and nitrate.

edit: just wanted to add that I am doing 25-75% water changes everyday depending on my readings...i have just not gotten below .50...but mostly it's been 1.0...but thank you for the tip about how much to take out based on the numbers....i was just sorta guessing at it...never really did the math.

Holly - I just answered this point on the other thread in Chemistry.
We do not recommend ammo-lock for a cycling tank for the reasons I explained there. It won't harm the fish but it will delay the cycle. It also gives very confusing ammonia readings, which will not be a help to Nicole.
Changing water is the best way to manage ammonia during cycling - the use of chemicals is best avoided. Why load the tank with ammo-lock when a water change sorts everything out?

sorry for double posting....i can't edit.

from API's website about what to do in cases of Ammonia problems.

"Overfeeding is a common cause of ammonia build-up. Make sure that all food is eaten within a few minutes. Sinking pellets and wafers should be completely eaten in 30 minutes. Uneaten food decomposes, adding ammonia to the water. To detoxify ammonia, use API’s AMMO-LOCK to instantly lock up ammonia. AMMO-LOCK does not remove ammonia, it simply converts toxic ammonia to a non-toxic form. Ammonia test kits will still test positive for ammonia, even though it is non-toxic. The biological filter will then consume the non-toxic ammonia, converting it to nitrite (Nitrite is another toxic waste material which must be tested separately) and then to nitrate. If the gravel bed is dirty from accumulated waste and uneaten food, use a gravel siphon to remove the debris. Changing 25% of the aquarium water will reduce the ammonia level. In an emergency, a daily water change may be required over several days. Filter aquarium water with API’s AMMO-CARB® or AMMO-CHIPS® to remove ammonia and improve water quality."

i too responded in the other thread.

from API "Overfeeding is a common cause of ammonia build-up. Make sure that all food is eaten within a few minutes. Sinking pellets and wafers should be completely eaten in 30 minutes. Uneaten food decomposes, adding ammonia to the water. To detoxify ammonia, use API’s AMMO-LOCK to instantly lock up ammonia. AMMO-LOCK does not remove ammonia, it simply converts toxic ammonia to a non-toxic form. Ammonia test kits will still test positive for ammonia, even though it is non-toxic. The biological filter will then consume the non-toxic ammonia, converting it to nitrite (Nitrite is another toxic waste material which must be tested separately) and then to nitrate. If the gravel bed is dirty from accumulated waste and uneaten food, use a gravel siphon to remove the debris. Changing 25% of the aquarium water will reduce the ammonia level. In an emergency, a daily water change may be required over several days. Filter aquarium water with API’s AMMO-CARB® or AMMO-CHIPS® to remove ammonia and improve water quality."

I know it's not specifically saying anything about during tank cycling...i have put a question into them about that. But just wanted to make sure it was clear what Ammo Lock does in fact do. But you need to follow the directions. Use every 2 day, for no more then 7 days before doing another water change, service filter, reduce feeding. Ammo Lock is meant as a temporary solution until you can control the ammonia.

Hey there - Fred and Holly. I've read your posts and will check with API whether the 'locked' ammonia is actually available to the beneficial bacs or not. That way we'll have a definitive answer.

Meanwhile I'm just a little worried that this discussion will de-rail Nicole's thread. She's struggling with all the instructions for cycling and filtration right now and she is only 13. My feeling is that if she uses the ammo-lock she will not be able to interpret the high ammonia readings it produces - I thought that by sticking to water changes and maybe Prime, things would be much simpler for her.

I may split this topic and we can continue our discussion under the title 'Ammo-lock'.

Pixie, good idea moving this thread elsewhere. What Holly & I quoted is direct from API's website (at least I'm sure mine is, and I'm pretty sure hers is too). I had the opinion of Ammo Lock that you are reflecting, until I read up on it on their website. Perhaps they reformulated it recently or something.

ok i'm just a little confused by this now lol from what i can understand ammo lock will stop ammonia from hamring fish but it will still be there until the filter removes it, but it stops the tank from cycling so it can't be used in a cycling tank just a completely cycled tank. Is this correct?

Hey fred - maybe you're right. I had always understood it to be a liquid version of ammo-chips.
Anyway, I have emailed API and asked for a detailed description of its effect upon ammonia. The agent present is sodium thiosulphate pentahydrate, so I want to know what the chemical chain reaction actually is when ammonia is present.
It would be good if it were like Amquel and Prime (slight differences, I know) but the thing I don't like about it is that the ammo readings are always high, which makes it hard to know what the tank chemistry actually is. I'll post back with any replies I receive.

So even ammonia that's non-toxic due to Ammo Lock will still show up as ammonia according to a drop test? If that's true, I agree I don't like that either.




Pixie is in the process of confirming part of this, but it appears that it will not prevent a cycling tank from cycling. But we're working on it. In the meantime, its simplest to just use water changes to decrease your ammonia levels. That's more work, but it will eliminate much of this confusion. Try that unless its far too much effort for you.

thankyou i'll do the water changes in the meantime

I know I'm not supposed to dredge up old post and I apolgise for that but can I ask if there is any development on the Ammo-lock cycling quandary???

I would be interested to know....

Yes, I finally received a reply from them!
It bears out Fred and Holly's earlier feeling that Ammo-Lock does indeed leave the detoxified ammonia available to the bio-filter and will not hinder the cycle.
I am just waiting for further information on the duration of its binding capacity and also whether, like AmQuel, it is test-kit sensitive.
I'll update once I hear.

I have some ammo chips in my filter just to help out a bit, im still getting an ammonia reading so im sure my tank is still cycling... i didn't put in all that it required for the 29gal tank because it wouldn't all fit in the filter, but it helps a little I guess...im STILL cycling tho

Well, Ammo-Chips are and Ammo-Lock are rather different in function, as it turns out.
Ammo-Lock will not inhibit the cycle but Ammo-Chips will; they lock it away and it cannot be used by the filter at all. I would discontinue the chips if you are trying to grow a cycle; you will be going nowhere fast otherwise.The beneficial bacteria need the ammonia to thrive and establish themselves. Take out the chips and just test and change water daily, as the results dictate. Anytime the levels rise above zero, change enough water to reduce the reading back down. You can use Ammo-lock or Prime or AmQuel to detoxify the lower levels.

Here is the rest of the information on ammo-lock from API: I've excised the relevant info from the email

It is similar to the AmQuel in its reaction to the nessler kit and its binding capacity. The reason for the 48 hour dosing is not due to the product losing its binding capacity but so that any further produced non-bound ammonia can then be locked into its non-toxic form. It is also important to remember that the product will only bind up to 3 ppm of ammonia per dose. If you have 6ppm you can double dose with the product to bind all 6 ppm to its non-toxic form. Hopefully this helps to answer any further questions you had on the product. If you need more assistance please let me know.

Just for the record, this information relates to ammonia control, ONLY - an escalating bacterial count will not be helped by the product; therefore ammo-lock should not be used as an alternative to water changes.

Thanks very much, it is interesting to know, and I wonder now why they don't make more of a point about it, I naturally assumed that it was some liquid zeeolite and would indeed inhibit the cycling process.... though wouldn't you know it, in the meantime I have sourced Amquel+ in the UK (good Ol' Ebay!)

Thank you Pixiefish...persistance pays off!

Yes, I had always thought the same and avoided it for that reason.
So now we have the option of AmQuel and Ammo-lock for permanent binding and Prime which will hold the ammonia for 24 hrs but thereafter allow it to revert to its toxic form if you have not removed it through w/changes.