i dont understand much about water testing..when i'm cycling my tank with sammy in and i find the water levels aren't normal do i need to correct them?? or is this just a part of cycling and the freqent water changes will take care of it??

thanks

While you're cycling you want to do as many water changes as you can to keep the ammonia and nitrites down. The ammonia especially can be absolutely toxic to your fish. That may mean you have to do a water change everyday for a little while, but things eventually become stable. Check out some of the posts about cycling, they explain things really well

Hello

The water testing helps you know how much to change out. Doing 50% or so water changes when your ammonia reaches .5 is better than doing 80% or more when it reaches 1. You're striving for your ammonia to be as close to zero as possible. Using Prime during cycling is helpful to your fish and your cycle, because it will bind the ammonia in a way to be both safe for your fish, and still usable by the bacteria for the cycle.
You'll only see ammonia for a while until the first batch of beneficial bacteria are produced to turn the ammonia into nitrite. Nitrite is basically the same as far as water testing - but you can worry about that when the time comes.

I hope this made sense - as I just woke up and my mind is still foggy.

Oh - if you have anything from your current tank - like gravel or ornaments - they can help the cycle a bit, if they're transferred directly from the tank.

Debbie

Good luck!

I just read up on Ammo Lock and it looks good for now. Problem is it won't help when you get to the 2nd state of cycling - nitrites. If they don't have Prime, did they have AmQuel+ by any chance? AmQuel+ is actually superior to Prime - esp for someone who is cycling - because it doesn't lose its binding with the toxic substances (ammonia/nitrite) after 24+ hours, like Prime does.

If they don't have that either, then you'll just need to keep a close eye on your nitrite levels, do water changes, and consider salting if needed.

This is the second time cycling a tank has gone wrong..can fish be allergic to filters or something?? I started cycling my tank yesturday, i checked the water levels before i put sammy in and i checked them just after..i come upstairs an hour later and sammy is lying on the bottom almost dead! I immeadiately set up a tank of water and brought it up to temperature with hot water, i put him in it straight away and he's alot better now, i really thought this was it for sammy i was crying so much lol.

I'm sure he's petrified of them..the last time i put in a filter he went crazy i thought he was going to have a heart attack! so i threw it away, now this..maybe it was shock? because i tested the water again after he came out and everything was fine?? there was no chance sammy was just resting or anything..i know he was ill but i dont understand why?? I can't put him back in there until i know why this has happened...

Hello NicoleClaire - I've just been reading through your topics as I can see you are having trouble. Let's see if we can help you a little.
I think you need some help understanding how cycling works, so from now on, to save any confusion, let's keep all the water and cycling questions confined to this thread, OK? Don't start any new ones or the process might get de-railed.

I want to be sure I'm clear on the details, so let's re-cap on a few things.
You say your test kit is a pond kit? Can you tell us the brand name and which testers you have. ie ammonia, nitrite etc. ?
Are you sure you remembered to add the de-chlorinator to the water? Fish will become very sick fast if you put untreated water in their tanks. Chlorine and chloramine damage their gills and can kill them.
I think you are are the wrong track in thinking that the filter is either poisoning him or scaring him. It is likely to be a problem with the water not the filter. Filtration is essential for aquarium fish - without it there is nothing to process their high waste output, so you must persevere with it.
What is the make of the filter? Can you read the box and tell us how many litres per hour it pumps? It is important that the filter has a sponge or some kind of surface which the good bacteria can grow on.

I read in another thread that you are using ammo-lock to control the ammonia. This is a bad idea as it will stop your cycle progressing. The only way to manage ammonia and nitrite is by changing water whenever the levels rise. What you must do is to test the water every day and change water accordingly.

Cycling can be confusing, but really all it is, is growing a colony of bacteria in your filter which will process your fishes waste safely, so that you eventually only have to change the water every week to keep nitrate down. Cycling usually takes about 4-6 weeks. Here's an explanation of how it works:

Fish produce ammonia from breathing and pooping. Ammonia is poisonous and will burn the fishes skin, so the water must be changed whenever it gets to 0.25 - 0.50ppm. (If you add ammo-lock, the ammonia which the bacteria need to feed on is removed and they die off = your cycle is prevented from progressing.)
After a while, bacteria which like to eat ammonia start to grow in your tank. Once they eat the ammonia, it is turned into nitrite. Nitrite is also poisonous and prevents the fish from being able to breathe, so the water must be changed whenever the levels reach 0.25-0.50ppm. Products like Amquel or Prime are very helpful in making these low levels non-toxic but you may have to get your parents to order them for you if they are not in the fish shop.
After a while, different bacteria will show up which like to eat nitrite. These turn the poisonous nitrIte into harmless nitrAte. Once you are getting daily readings of zero ammonia and nitrite with some readings for nitrates, your cycle is complete. Then all you need to do is to change water each week to make sure that the nitrate is below 20ppm. You must vacuum the gravel when you do this to remove all the poop and uneaten food which will rot and make the fish sick.

Here's what I'd like you to do.
Test your tank water for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and PH. Tell us the exact numbers.
If you have a KH tester tell us the tank and tap reading. This is important to know, as sometimes there is not enough alkalinity to keep your tank PH stable.

The main thing to remember is that until a tank is cycled, ammonia and nitrite rise very quicky and can kill your fish. So at this point, testing and changing water every day is what you need to be concentrating on.

I know this is a long post - so can you read it over carefully and answer the questions I've asked? That way we can get you on track quickly. OK? Post back when you can.

ok thanks, it will take a while to test everything so i'll post back when i've done..i did add chlorine remover and i didnt use ammo lock.

thanks for the help, i'll get those water tests done

OK so it wasn't chlorine poisoning - that's good. Don't forget to say which test kit it is (brand name) and if they are drops or strips or whatever. Do tap and tank.

ok water is still testing but it was tetra pond testing kit and it's drops but i'm only using that for ammonia.

I'm using aquarium pharmaceuticals 5 in 1 water testing strips for everything else.

would it be possible to do a fishless cycle now that i've started?

well i've just gone to take another look at my tank and ive realised the filter isn't working properly...it's hardly moving the water at all anymore it's humming but the trickling noise has completely gone and hardly anything is coming out... could this be why sammy reacted badly? i dont know why he'd be ill just becuse it doesn't work though...

OK Tetra is good. I use them too. I'm not sure how the aquarium kit differs from the pond kit, though. The strips are less accurate so you might like to get some droppers as soon as you are able to.

You'd better take a look at the filter. Turn it off first. Which one is it? - you didn't say. See if there is an outflow switch which can be adjusted up or down. Best to say which brand and model it is and then we can get a better idea.
The filter is not what is bothering your fish unless there is a stray current - you'd be able to tell this as the water would 'sting' your fingers.
Your fish is most likely reacting to the uncycled environment. Post back all you readings for tank and tap as soon as you have them.

When you say, 'can you do a fishless cycle now you've started', I'm just wondering where would you put Sammy while you did it? I don't see that it would be of any help as he's already been living without a filter and does not have an ready-cycled tank to wait in.

Is there a chance he was just sleeping? Maybe he used to sleep in the middle or the top because there wasn't much current, but now that there is some current, he prefers to rest on the bottom where the current is less? Bottom sitting can be a sign of issues, but occassional bottom resting is perfectly normal. Is there more to it that makes you think he was 'almost dead' as opposed to take a nap?

I'd suggest you observe him for a while in the new tank, not leave for an hour and then make a judgement on a very short period of observation when you walk back into the room. Is he getting pushed around by the current? Look like he's having difficulty swimming? Avoiding it entirely? Or is he having so much fun playing in the bubbles that he's tuckered out by an hour later?

You can decrease the current by make sure the tank is pretty full, so that there's not too big of a splash from the filter. An inch (2-3 cm) drop or less should still stir the water plenty but not cause too much current. How big of a drop/splash was it making? Some filters you may be able to turn them down - while this makes for less filtration, it may be a good way to get him used to it at first, if that really is the issue.

i'm pretty sure he was ill... he was lying still in his side, at first when i put my fingers in the water he didnt move afterwards he moved a little, after i took him out he was flashing a tiny bit but calmed down pretty soon. He was fine with the filter it wasn't too strong the filter is a interpet internal power filter PF 1. You can turn it down on mine too, it was right down already lol i have the filter working again now but i'm not sure if it's doing it correctly, i have nothing to compare it to so i'm not sure. I had to clean the filter pads and for some reason i did itn the tank water, i wasn't thinking..is it still safe to put him back in? test results are GH 60 KH 80 PH 7.5 nitrite 0 nitrate 0. I haven't finished the ammomia yet i have to wait for the water to come up to a certain temperature and then it's quite complicated. and to do a fishless cycle i would put him in the tank he's always been in before i got this one
thanks

I can't explain the behavior, but the parameters sound fine (pending the ammonia result). The KH is a bit low, but that shouldn't be any different than his other tank. We struggle with that a bit too - you might be a good candidate for crushed coral, since you GH is low too (low GH is not a problem, but since crushed coral will raise KH & GH, having low of both makes you a good candidate for it - in our case, we have low KH but high GH, so I don't want to use 'cc' because it would make our GH ultra high). But that's not your primary concern right now.

One thing to do, if you haven't done so already, is take those measurements on the water he's currently in. Are they the same, or at least close? They should be. And if so moving shouldn't be an issue. The only other parameter I can suggest to look at is temperature (got a thermometer of some kind?). If that's the same too, then you have the same water in both within reasonable bounds.

When asking about washing the filter pads in the water, where these brand new pads? Or were they already running in the filter? If the latter, you didn't put anything in the water that wasn't there to begin with, and it'll come back out with some filtration.


Something just came to mind to me. To rule out whether we're looking at a water issue or a 'filter-fear' issue, what about moving him to the new tank without the filter there? If he's been in a filterless tank for all this time, an hour or two to get used to his new environs without a running filter shouldn't be an issue. Then, put the filter in, but don't turn it on - see if he's even just afraid of 'that big thing'. If he's still ok then, turn the filter on low, and watch him. Slowly increase it every once in a while. Watch how he reacts.

If his behavior seems off after turning the filter on, turn it back off. See if he improves. Experiment like this - trial and error - and see what causes problems or doesn't - so you can really nail it down.

The thing is, fish don't usually get 'ill' so quickly, unless there's something really bad in the water like chlorine, or high high levels of ammonia or nitrite or nitrate, or a big swing in conditions. It seems like you've ruled those out for the most part.

yes the water he's in now is exactly the same as the tank including temperature. I'm going to try your idea it's good but because the water has started cycling won't there be beacteria in the water that could harm him if i turn it off? (in my head it sounded good now having just said that i sound like a crazy lady...) The water is getting cloudy too..i dont know why i have suspicions my filter isnt very good.

thanks

look, i dont know what to do anymore. I'm that scared something will happen to Sammy. I probebly sound a little pathetic even with all you that love fish but i've basicly grown up with Sammy and if anything happened to him i'd never forgive myself. I want him to be happy in a nice fitered tank, i really do but i'm just too scared, i've taken the filter out now maybe i'll clean the tank out and start again, maybe not. Maybe i'll do a fishless cycle. I'm just so confused right now and i dont want to do anything that could harm him, i ask my mother what she thinks but she can't help me, i have so many things i'm supposed to be doing right now he's in a small tank that i need to atleast clean. i've been crying for ages because i want to do what you guys all suggest because loads of you are experts and know way more than me, but i feel that i can't take that chance he's so important to me and no offence but even though i know you're right i can't trust you with his life. I want to just leave it not give him a filter and carry on doing what i was doing for the last 8 years, but then i think how about if these last 8 years weren't happy ones for Sammy? and that he doens't actually have a good quality of life. Right now nothing is getting done. I really need to make a desicion but it's hard for me because i really am scared of change however big or small. I just wanted to let you know how I feel and that I really don't know what's best for Sammy anymore...

yes the water he's in now is exactly the same as the tank including temperature. I'm going to try your idea it's good but because the water has started cycling won't there be beacteria in the water that could harm him if i turn it off? (in my head it sounded good now having just said that i sound like a crazy lady...) The water is getting cloudy too..i dont know why i have suspicions my filter isnt very good.


I think you're confusing cycling a little bit... the cycling bacteria is *good* bacteria. Its what you want to accumulate and it consumes bad byproducts like ammonia and nitrite. Not there there isn't bad bacteria around too, but that's true regardless of whether you're cycled or not, and that what your fish's immune system should be for, just like ours. If the tank is properly rinsed out and prepared, there shouldn't be any more bad bacteria than in his current tank.

What could harm him since the tank is not cycled is the ammonia - or nitrIte - but you've already shown that's not there yet through the test. It will accumulate from his waste, but not in an hour or so unless you have the poopiest fish in the world!

Cloudy - assuming you mean white-cloudy - is not unusual in a new tank. Its typically considered a sign of the good bacteria starting. Keep the measurements, watch his behavior in response to the new tank and then the filter, and then the filter being turned on and make your own judgements.

Its possible your filter is no good - it looks like a UK brand so I can't chime in there. If you see that adding the filter is really what causes him to act weird (and stay in the room with him for a while after each change to observe), then you could consider a different filter/brand.

thanks for all your help but.. i'm not sure but i think i might get rid of the water, give the tank a very big clean out and cycling the tank fishless, what do you think about this?? and as i only have a small spare tank, i was thinking i could put him in a plastic container whilst it cycles? the trouble is it wouldn't be see through so would this be cruel?

p.s i think i do have the most poopiest fish in the world...

p.p.s i have a little theory... if i put dirty tank water into the cycling tank freqently would it make it cycle faster? (when the fish is not in there)

thanks

Whether you put him in a plastic container or in the new tank, they'll both be going through a cycling process. The ammonia will build up in the container like it would in the tank, and need testing and water changes. By the time the fishless tank is cycled, the container would be, too.
Personally - I'd say to put him in the tank to and cycle it with him in there. You can wait to see what others have to say.

I would like to make a comment. You keep making new threads, and like Pixiefish told you, things will get lost in it all. Try to stick to a single thread for asking questions instead of making new ones. It's harder for people who try to help when all of your information is scattered in the forum.

Debbie

ok sorry i know this is getting confusing i just post for un-related topics but it sort of all comes back to the same thing in the end lol

and i added hot water to bring the tank up to temperature.. could this be a reason why he was ill?

one reason you stressed him out with the sudden temp. change...kinda like jumping in a cold swimming pool

OK Nicole - time to take a big breath, stop panicking and calm yourself down. If all your energy is going into panic there is none left for thinking clearly and reading instructions. OK?
So far, you've posted a million worries, but meanwhile I still don't know what your ammonia reading is - do you see what I mean?

Nothing is going to happen to your fish if you stick with what we're telling you. We've all had the experience of setting up and cycling a tank and will not steer you wrong - we want you to enjoy your fish and be happy rather than panicking all the time. Try not to scour 50 different forums for advice as you will inevitably get conflicting advice and become confused and unsure.

First of all you need to understand that adding the filter and beginning a new cycle is going to be fine - just follow the steps we give you and answer any Q's as clearly as you can. Filters should not terrify fish; I think it is you who is the one frightened of the filter, not your fish - am I right? The thing most likely to harm him is placing him in a small, unfiltered space where there is not enough oxygen and ammonia can gallop above safe levels - keeping him with a filter and regular water changes will keep him safe. Repeat this 5 times!
Forget the fishless cycle - stick with him in the tank.

Please follow these guidelines:
Stop 'cleaning' your tank all the time. The filter should not be touched until the cycle is complete - otherwise you are disturbing the bacterial colony while it is trying to grow. (These are the good bac's and you don't want to 'clean' them away. Bad bac's are what build up when a tank is not changed-out for extended periods - rotting food and poop etc.))

All you need to do, is to test the readings every morning and change-out water according to the results. Ammonia or nitrite above 0.25ppm = time to change some water. Cloudy water at this stage is a good sign - it indicates a bacterial bloom.

Try to match the temperature when you replace water. Use your little finger as a guide - it doesn't have to be exact just make sure it feels more-or-less the same.. If you need to warm water, use the kettle; the hot tap can sometimes have a high metal content. Always add the dechlor to the water before putting it into the tank.

I think what made your fish act shocked may have been to do with a PH or temperature difference. Fish particularly do not like changes in PH.
I would really like to know the PH and KH of the tank and the tap water Can you reply with these and the ammonia results? The KH is a measure of alkalinity and plays a role in holding the PH steady - this is why I would like to know your results for both, so I can compare.

So, no more panic decisions - just be calm, follow what we say and keep us posted

PS. I've just noticed you have started several other threads all on this same topic! - all this will do is confuse you more, as I said before. You just need to follow the advice and stick with it, hun.

Ammo-lock discussion now has it's own thread in this same forum (Goldfish Tanks - Water Problems, Questions about Water Quality) Please post any questions about ammo-lock in that thread. ta so muchly.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=68269

right sorry i've been away today, i'm calm now though and am about to test the water. But i have a problem.. i don't think my filter is working properly... it works but it sort of makes short bursts of air into the water instead of running smoothly, yesturday it stopped working altogethor and just buzzed, so i took it apart, and moved it and it started working again but again those short bursts, when i first got it for the first hour or so it worked perfectly and made a lovely noise btw lol. I might take it back to the pet shop and replace it, so i'll have to postpone the cycling for a few days and the i'd much rather do a fishless cycle it sounds...safe lol but i'll just worry about getting the filter replaced first.

thanks

i'm calm now though and am about to test the water"

That's good to hear Nicole. Test the tap and tank for PH and KH, then give us the tank readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

Well, the pet shop will be able to tell if there is a fault or a faulty connection in your filter. Do you have it positioned correctly? Not too high out of the water? The outflow nozzle should be level with the water to create surface splash.

Other than that - I want to clear up a misunderstanding I think you have of cycling. By doing a fishless cycle and putting him in another tank he will still be in exactly the same position as he is now ie. in a space without anything to process his ammonia. So there is nothing to gain by doing a fishless cycle - it doesn't help him at all. He is better off with you checking his water everyday and running the filter so that it can grow the right bacteria to keep him safe. It will take around 4-6 weeks.
What is dangerous to a fish is being kept without a filter and the threat of ammonia - and you have managed like this for 8 years.
All you are doing differently now is putting him in a larger space, adding a filter and checking the water readings every day. Don't you see that this makes him better off than before? So stop worrying about everything and just take one step at a time.

Remember you must test and do w/changes daily - did you change any yesterday or today? This is how to keep Sammy safe.

I'll wait for the water readings.........

Hey Nicole - how's everything going? You've gone very quiet. Please don't be scared off

Sorry i sort of disappeared lol i took out the filter, it really freaked me out and my mum was quite worried too so he went filterless again but i've decided since then to give it another shot so i've installed it again I didnt originally have a lid for his tank though because he has never jumped in the eight years ive had him and this was his first big tank and i never thought of getting a lid but because of a recent accident when my other new fish jumped out of it's tank and died I have decided to get a lid just incase so i'll need a filter for the oxygen anyway. I have the tank set up but i can't put him in until sunday when i have a lid for his tank.

What can i do to make it less of a shock putting him in the water? the temperature is the same so anything else? thanks

To ensure the water parameters are the same you can mix some water from the old and new tanks. Take several cups from the old and new tanks and switch them. Do it a few times in the few hours before you switch him. That will adjust the water in both tanks to be very similar.

thankyou i jut put sammy in about 20 minutes ago so far so good he seem to be acting perfectly normal

That's wonderful news!! Any pictures, by any chance?
Best of luck to your fish in his new home!!

Debbie