• Test Results for the Following:
  Ammonia Level? 0
  Nitrite Level? 0
  Nitrate level? less than 0.5
  Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? pH 7.6
  Ph Level out of the Tap? 7.6
• Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 40 gallon about 3 months
• What is the name and size of the filter/s? Penguine ?? was rated for 200 gallons per hours. I don't know the other filter but it is rated at 400 gallons per hour but is adjustable and is turned down.
• How often do you change the water and how much? about 25% weekly
• [b]How many fish in the tank and their size? currently 1 @ Oranda X ~3", 1@ fantail 2", 1 @ Moore 1" 1 @ Oranda 1", 1 @ pleco ~ 2", (1 @ ryunkin ~ 3/4 inche currently in Hospital Tank for loosing tail in filter)
• What kind of water additives or conditioners? None
• Any medications added to the tank? 1 Tbls Salt/gallon administered in 3=parts
• Add any new fish to the tank? no
• What do you feed your fish? 1-2 times daily
• Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt", bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Ich
• Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, ect..? Fantail is swimming arratically and seems as if she cant close her mouth and surface sucking air, Moore may have a pop eye (unsure)

So about a week ago my Ryunkin got its tail stuck in the bigger filter and lost the majority of it.
Then I notice that the larger of my fish had what I thought was Ich. Salt like crystals on his tail and dorsal fin.
I decided to treat with Salt and heat. Added 38 tablespoons of salt divided into 3=parts added over 24 hours. Added a heater and slowly raised the temp of the tank from 72F (room temp) to 78F over a period of 3 days to help speed the life cycle of the Ich.
Last night was the last night of salt additions to the tank. Everything seemed okay after the last part of salt was added. This morning all looked good also. When I got home from work I noticed that that there is a bunch of white stringy poo in the water, stuck to the filter and my fantail was acting odd...... as if it can't close its mouth. It has now begun to occationally started doing erratic speed swimming around the tank and hovers at the top as if to suck air. The Moore if veiwed from behind seems to have his left eye larger than his right. I don't know if that is normal for him as when he looks directly at you he looks like he always does. His eyes may just be disproportionate. I am concerned. I seem to have nothing but trouble with these fish as of late. It seems like it is one thing after another.

There had been a small ryunkin I had rescued, QTed, and added to the tank. After 2 weeks in the big tank he mistereousely lost his tail in the filter while I was at work. I moved him to the Hospital tank and treated for the damaged tail. It happens to be healing nicely, but I wonder if he is the carrier of the Ich into the main tank. He is primarily white and very small so I could have missed the signs of Ich which could explain how he got caught up in the filter. I originaly thought it was because he was so small and that filter has a strong suction to it, being that I had just cleaned the tank and usually have that pickup tube better protected so that it doesn't injure any of the fish.

Anyway, Do I have a bacterial infection -- white stringy poo??

Do I have a Salt OD?
What are the signs of a Salt OD? (40 Tbls = 40 gall -> I tryed to adjust for the diplacement)
Should I treat with Melefix and/or Primafix for white stringy poo?

Help would be appreciated! I also posted on Golfishparadise incase you read both...



[/b]

update........ the fantail is now acting as if it is choking. I watched carefully while he was swimming frantically and afterward he kinda like coughs up stingy slimy stuff (looks like mucus) and has developed red veining in its tail!!

Please any Ideas!! I don't want it to die!!

I can't really help on a plan for you and your fish but I believe a 40g would be 24 tablespoons at 0.3 16 tablespoons at 0.2 and 8 tbl spoons at 0.1 If I'm wrong somone will correct me ..I hope you are using UNiodized salt ? good luck

I just saw your last post ..do a water change right away to bring salt down to 0.1 until somone more experieced can help you are you sure he is not choking ?

if you can hold him and keep him calm ..bring his head out of the water and his mouth should automatically open and look in if there is somthing in there you can try and pull it out with tweezers but gently

I noticed you don't use conditioners this is a must it takes out metals and chlorine and stuff out of tap water to make it safe for fish

Have you had the fish in salt for one week with no water change zookey? 25% weekly is not enough when your fish are sick, pop-eye is a usually a symptom of high bacterial load in the water. I would start with a large water change and begin the salting VERY slowly again. Start with 40 level teaspoons (0.1%). Go up again at 3 X 12 hour intervals to avoid shock. You MUST keep a salt journal to avoid salt creep.

You have had 2 filter accidents. You need to cover the filter in a way that protects your fish ASAP. I am wondering why it is ripping of fins...are you sure it is not the pleco at night eating fins? What kind of pleco do you have there? What do you feed him? Plecs need constant round the clock 24 hour grazing and if it ain't there they will go for fishes fins and slime coat, I'm afraid.

Ich is brought on by stress. maybe the plec, maybe the accidents, maybe the new fish.

You have salted to one week only correct? That is not usually enough time to tackle ich. Have you done daily gravel vacs? The ich may come back if you don't leave the salt in for 6 days after you see the last ich spot. and do daily gravel vacs to catch the hatch outs and larvae.

As hi-D notes, Why are you not using a de-clorinating/de-chloramine product for your water?

Open mouth gaping is a sign of parasites or OVER salting. You should start from scratch with the salt and go up in 3 stages. Each stage is 12 hours apart.

Thanks Heidi.

Thank you hi-D and Trinket for your responses. I guess I was in an awful hurry as I typed last night.

I have only had one filter mishap...... the smallest Ryunkin (only ryunkin) lost his tail to the filter. The filter is adjustable and must have gotten the knob bumped or so I though. Normally that pickup tube is hidden in the base of plants ect but the larger of the goldies bulldogged some of the plants out of the way and the little fish got caught up by the tube. I now beleive he was the carrier of the Ich into the tank and was probably weakened by the Ich as well. I am sure the water conditions were not as good as normal when I added the new fish..... simply because the bacteria were not used to the extra fish waste of the ryunkin.

I don't use de-chlorinators because I have well water that has no chlorine or cholamide. I do use something for the metals ect..... just can't remember the name of it at the moment, that is highly recomended by many people in this area to treat well water. One of the people is a guy that works for the DNR raising wild fish fry for stocking the lakes in this area (he is my supplier since it is only available in Large bulk for treating very large holding ponds at hatcheries). I feel he is as close to an expert as there can be.

I started treating for Ich on Tuesday night @ 8:30pm. 1 Tbls per gallon (38 to take into account for dispacement, didn't want to take the chance of ODing on salt) divided into 3 parts to be added 12 hours apart. I did over a 50% water change prior to the salt on Tueday night adding 38 teaspoons salt to the aged water prior to adding to the tank. 12 hours later (8:30 am Wednesday) I hung a salt bag with another 38 teaspoons salt into the tank, then Wednesday night (8:30 pm) I did another 25 % water change adding the last 38 teaspoons salt plus 20 teaspoons to replace what was taken out with the water change. That should have made a full 38 tablespoons of salt to the tank. Thursday night @ 6:45 or so is when my fantail started "choking". They had only been in the salted water for 48 hours with 75% water change. There will be 25% water changes nightly as I vaccume my gravel and that water will be treated with 10 Tablespoons of salt. This should keep the salt in the tank at 38 Tablespoons for 38 gallons.

In fear and panic I beleive I saw "pop-eye" but I had taken pics of my Moore when I first got him and some since then and looking at the pics my Moore just has disproportioned eyes. I was just in a panic watching my fantail "choke" to death.

My pleco is fed with algea wafers and cucumbers (he likes them) along with the driftwood and the algea in the tank. He is a "dwarf mountain stream" pleco which look alot like the "Hill Stream Loach". He will only get approximately 4 inches in total body length. This type of pleco is bred at the local pet store I bought him from and the 5 year old parents are only 3.5" and 4" long. I had heard of plecos being hard on goldfish but the pet store assures me that these are NOT dagerouse to goldfish. (I know, sales ploy! Never trust a salesman!) I still make sure he is fed adiquately and watch him carefully.

Sadly Spot died this morning around 6:30 am. My husband did a necropsi(sp?) to see if she truely had an obstruction and what the obstruction was. She had apparently eaten a wad of blue stingy stuff. It was all coated in white slime and he wasn't even sure what it was, but said it wasn't worms of anykind. He said it almost looked like a string or fine (small) yarn, like from a carpet maybe. Our carpets are all beige so I still don't know what it was. I couldn't get myself to look at what he had found. He also said her stomach had nothing in it except for white slime (like the slime coat on a Northern Pike). Whatever caused her death had been there for some time but he thinks it may have dislodged where it had been and obstucted just infront of her stomach with a single peice of food that couldn't make it past causing the choking and spitting up behavior. He said there was a spot closer to her gills that looked like it had been irratated by something for some time.

Everyone else in the tank seems to be doing fine this morning other than my OrandaX. He is now the only "big" fish in the tank and looks lonely. The little oranda and the moore won't play with him and when he trys to play with them they run away. He is about 3 times as big as they are and I am sure it could be scary to be chased by something 3 times your size.

My only problem now is my Moore burned it's tail on the heater. I watched him do it this morning. He swims backwards alot and swam (backed) right into the heater and jolted forward. Now he has small bits of tail missing at the top center part of his tail. (they are stuck to the heater, I can see them). I am thinking I may add melefix or should the salt be enough to help that heal up quickly?

Hi-D --> What kind of fish is that in your avitar? I know it is some kind of goldfish (or so I think it is) can you tell me what kind?

S/He is really cute!

she /he is ssoooo cute, it isn't my fish I came across this fish on goldfish connection I'm not sure what it is but we may have come to the conclusion that it may be a cross of a lionhead and a telescope ...not to sure..

zookey, you sound to be on top of things now. I am so sorry about your moor and the heater, happened twice to two of my fish as well.
Once one fish wedged herself under it on purpose when she wasn't feeling well, silly fish Both times the burns have healed in salted water.

I'm very sorry that you lost your Spot. The poor silly fish... eating what he shouldn't have.
The blue stringy stuff - it sounds like the back of my carbon filter cartridges. I had one that I was surprised to see it falling apart. I wondered if you used these - and ever had the same problem?
I hope you're feeling better now. I wish you the best with the rest of your fish.
Little Spot

Debbie

Well back to problems. Friday night when I got from work my Moore had gotten stuck between a stump for my pleco to hind in and the back of the tank. I freed him but he could not hold ballance. He was also doing these horrible twitching things also. If I caught him in a net and brought him to the surface of the water he would do better as far as balance and staying upright. I also noticed that when he was free in the tank and would flip he would quit breathing and go all stiff so I netted him again, grabbed him by the tail and swooshed him in the water and it would ressesatate him. So I rigged my net with an office binder clip to the edge of my tank in hopes he could recover from what I thought was being trapped 1/2 on his side. I also noticed that my larger orandaX was doing that Twitching as if he couldn't control it. Almost like a whole boddy shiver. I remember reading somewhere that Nitrate or Nitrite poisoning could cause this. I did a quick parameters check on nitrItes and nitrAtes and one of them (don't remember now) were over 50!! I did an emergency water change of as much water as I had buckets to hold. I tryed to think of what had caused this and came to the conclusion that it must be the salt I used so I didn't salt the water again even though the fish should be in the salty water for another week for the Ich, but at the risk of killing the fish I will treat later for Ich.

So anyway the orandaX seems to have bounced back but is hanging at the surface of the water today, but the black moore now has stringy white poo and his left eye has clowded over. I think he has a bacterial infection that was intensified by the higher temps, salt, and or the bad salt. What is the best thing to do for PopEye or clowdy eye?? I did buy him a breeding basket to put him in so he is not forced to sit in a small net 24/7. He maintains his posture now but bottom sits in the basket and his eye is clowdy.

Any help??

Thank you for your concern....... I thought about that filter cartridge too but the one that has been in my tank (and all others from that box) are green. Normally they are blue or at least the replacements are but the ones I have used so far are green. I have had them start looking kinda fuzzy but never "fall apart" per se. I still keep thinking if I had not tryed to treat for Ich non of this may have happened. But all I can do now is try my darnest so the rest of the tank doesn't follow Spot.

Any ideas how to treat Clowdy eye/Pop eye??

Thanks.

hi zookey what kind of salt are you using and how much? ..popeye and cloudy eye can be a symptom ..wait till trinket or someone who has better knowledge than I gets on to advise you on meds but in the mean time keep your water pristine you can't put meds in if your water is not stable and we'll have to figure out what is exactly going on if you can post back water parems again so they know what is high nitrite/nitrate that would be a huge help for the helpers it's okay to do the water change to desalt ecspecially if your fish are reacting ..post back exactly how much salt was in and what kind..this will help also..I hope your fish get better soon .

I was confused about in your posts about salt - whether you were measuring out Tablespoons or teaspoons. What I'm reading from Trinket is that .1% salt would be 40 teaspoons for 40 gallons. Maybe it's a typo - I was reading that you were adding tablespoons (that is, 1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons.)

Good luck with your fishes, it's so hard to help them when they can't even whimper to tell you what's up.

I was using API aquarium salt. I was treating for Ich accourding to the directions is this article: http://koivet.com/html/articles/articles_d...h%20Information I had added 38 TABLEspoons to make a 0.3% salt solution. As per the article noted.

You say "popeye and cloudy eye can be a syptom" of what? They can be a symptom of what?? I don't know what they are symptoms of so how can I even come close to trying to solve my problem!! I am sorry, I have been serching forums and articles and have read that phrase probably 100 times today but no one ever finishes it and tells me what they are symptons of. A Bacterial infection? Tumors? Certain Death? WHAT!!?? Again I appologize....I should not take this out on you or anyone else... I just feel so bad that one of my fish is dead, my Moore is not looking very good, my OrandaX isn't quite himself, and my little Oranda (last fish in this tank) is having way to much fun body surfing in the bubble stream.

My parameters this morning:
pH 7.6
Amonia 0
NitrItes 0
Nitrates ~10

I did another 25% change tonight and will retest in the morning.

Friday I did an "almost complete" water change to get rid of as much salt as I could. I fear there is something wrong with the last box of salt.



As mentioned above I was treating for Ich accoudig to these instructions http://koivet.com/html/articles/articles_d...h%20Information. This same proceedure is recommended by our local fish guy. Old retired man who owned the only real Fish Store in the area for many years. Anyway yes I had 38 TABLEspoons of salt in a 40 gallon tank. I was actually UNDER salted for the 0.3% solution. I alloted 2 gallons of displacement for the rocks and decore ect. But when I did the almost complete water change last night I found I don't have 2 gallons of displacement.

I appreciate all of your answers and comments. I hope someone can help me figure out what is happening to all my fish!!

My mistake on understanding your salt post - sounds just right, since as you said you divided it. Glad the pop-eye was a false alarm!

Anyone can misunderstand something.

My problem now is: My moore may not have PopEye but his eyes are getting cloudy! He has flipped and stopped breathing 2-3 times. I have him in a breeding net so he doesn't go to deep in the water as this is one of the things that seems to trigger him to stop breathing.

You have any suggestions on what I can do?

zookey I know your very frusturated ..this happens to many of us a fish can only say so much ..cloudy eye in a symptom of either heavy parasite load ,bacteria infection ...and probably a few that I can't mention cause I just don't know ..trust me I DO KNOW how you are feeling when 1 symptom is for many things ..I hope someone can get to the bottom of things for you and one thing is your water is tip top and that is good I'm sorry I'm not a huge help but I'm here for support...... and dont feel sorry about being upset these are your pets and you have every right to feel at wits end..Trinket knows her stuff unfortanatly she can't be here at all times she did mention that it could be a parasite load did she not ? most fish carry flukes and it is hard to kill because they grow in many generations have you ever treated for flukes ..? ..there is a medication called Prazi and it is gentle and most people treat it to a fish they just bought beacuse it will most likly be carrying flukes ..some people even treat it yearly just as a percaution.prazi is that gentle ..I myself have used parasite clear tabs( contains prazi )as it treats flukes and many other things and found it to be helpful....I hope this may have helped a bit .

Hi zookey, as Heidi says I can offer support, but no expertise like Trinket can. Heidi also said Prazi is good, and it is supposed to be very gentle and effective against parasites. My experience - after a bunch of anti-bacterial meds (mainly for another fish) my small one was acting sulky, not eating well and even spitting out peas she tried to eat. Just wasn't right. I had been planning on using the Prazi - good for any time you bring in new fish, I'm told. So I used it, and much to my surprise she perked up within 2 days. I suppose I got lucky. So I don't know if that is the right thing for you to do right now, but you might want to buy some to have on hand if that it is what's recommended.

The full hame is "praziquantrel" but when I called around to pet stores, nobody had any idea what I was talking about, so I ordered it on-line. Only later did I learn (as Heidi says) that the Parasite Clear tabs contain Prazi also (along with other things) - and they did have that at my pet store after all. I've heard very good things about Prazi, and everybody says it's gentle. Only question I might ask is with the Parasite Clear tabs I think they have meds to treat other things as well, and I don't know if that would be a problem with other medications you might be using - though I think it's only the salt.

I can say that before my other problems developed, Trinket was recommending the Prazi and salt.

Hi-D and Lantern567:

Thank you for being here!! I know Trinket and the other Experts can't be online all the time and I do truely appreciate your support!! You talk of Parasite Clear tabs that you say work on flukes -- do they work on Ich to? I am asking because I have noticed my OrandaX is rubbing on the rocks and stuff. I know I didn't have the salt in the tank long enough to kill the Ich and would like to use somethng other than salt now since I had such a bad experience with it. The "funny" part of all of this is that it is my biggest fish (only) that shows any visable sign of Ich (spots, rubbing, ect) but the salt that was suppose to help him and not harm the other fish has triggered a chain reaction in my tank.

I found something called Gel-Tek Ultra Cure BX that says it is suppose to kill internal and external bacterial infections. There is also Gel-Tek Ultra Cure PX that is good for worms, flaggilites, heartworm.... ingredients include Praziquatrel. I know the store also carries Quick Cure for Ich and it covers alot of other stuff too. I guess I am just wondering if I shoulld go with one of these routes and skip the salt. No one here caries just Praziquatrel by name and nothing will get here any quicker than at least a week due to location and shipping time. I am just afraid i may not have a week to wait to treat with something.

Well the good news is......... my Moore is swimming around in the little breeding net today. He is not completely listless and just bottom sitting, so there is an improvement since yesterday, a BIG improvement from Friday night! I am concerned though it seens that both his eyes are kinda cloudy but only the bottom 1/2 of the eye. Yesterday the whole left eye was clouded over but now it is both eyes but only 1/2 cloudy. Could this be something caused by the Salt treatment and with enough clean water will kinda clean itself from his system?? I have noticed my small oranda seems a little down today but not really distressed in any way. I think she is missing her playmate (the moore).

I plan another 50% water change today to reduce more of the salt (should be very little left) so if I need to treat with anything I won't have it react with salt. I don't know if anything will but I would rather be safe than sorry. I know my little oranda just really enjoys water changes. She loves to play around my hand and have her little bitty wen rubbed. So if nothing else maybe it will just perk us both up a bit.

Well I just had my page long reply deleted by the internet- AAArgh.

Zookey, I don't know how long you have been keeping goldfish (not long I am thinking) but there are key symptoms and there are subsiduary symptoms. Pop eye is the latter, cloudy eye too. Hard to say what they indicate- just that there is something wrong.

Goldfish should not be getting sucked in to heaters and filters. Even if there are parts sticking out or not properly attached or whatever. It is weak and sick fish that are pulled towards both because their body is under attack from some infection that is weakening them.

Your nitrates at 50 after a water change is quite high- try to keep those down as weak fish are more sensitive.

Salt sounds on track. If your fish canot tolerate salt at 0.3% (Choking means this) then you can still break parasite life cycles with 0.2% for 2 days and 3rd day at 0.3%. Larval hatch outs will die at 0.2% and more mature forms at 0.3% so this routine will also work given the hatch out time frame of most parasites (3-4 days).

Twitching is a key symptom of slime coat irritation most usually parasites.

You should always quarantine a new fish for one month. New fish are carriers (they have gained immunity) to many disease that they display no symptoms for but can kill another fish with (your old fish).

I suggets you get some Prazipro from GoldfishConnection.com and keep up the salt until 6 days after the last ich spot is seen OR 2 weeks.

If you cannot get Prazi fast, get P>C tank buddy tabs but be prepared for some sycle tweaking and lossof bbs using that with salt. Praziqauntel straight is more gentle and with the salt covers for all the same things.

PC tank buddies will not kill ich no. You would still need the salt with them. The other meds you mention are forbacterial infections which are usually treated second/later if parasites are suspected. Dont use Ich clear products on weak fish, tehya re very strong.
the daily w/cs sound an excellent plan.

I am really really sorry about the net..... did same thing to me just minutes ago!!

I am new to Goldfish again after a while. I have had tanks before that ran successfully for 6-8 years before any illness/death occurred. So when after having fish again for 6 months or so and all of a sudden in a 32 hour period it seemed to have gone toxic has be very confused. Thanks for clarifying that pop eye and cloudy eye are subsiduary symptoms. I had always heard that pop eye was a desease in and of itself. I think it was suppose to be a bacterial infection--don't remember.



The one fish I have that was "sucked" into the filter was a very small fish > less than 1/2 inch body but probably was the carrier of the Ich to the tank so was probably weak and I thought it was just due to his size.. As far as the Moore who was "sucked" into the heater --> He does like to swim backwards alot, looks like moonwalking. The heater in the tank was a new addition and he appeared to just back into it by accident, but seeing that he is ill now I guess he too could have been weaker than normal.



The nitrates at that level were recorded at almost 24 hours after the waterchange. Since I got most of the salt out of the tank they are staying down. I think their sudden rise and the fishes weakened condition have something to do with all of my problems. I think there is something wrong with that salt.



My salt will be almost completely removed from the water by this evenings water change. I will have to start over and I am trying to decide if should use that same salt or use my canning salt. I am afraid that my nitrite/ate issues were caused by something in that salt.



I was under the impression that you needed to quarentine for 2 weeks which I did. I guess I should have kept him QTed longer.



I guess I will go ahead and buy Prazi online. No one in town sells the parasite clear tabs so hopefully they will be fine till it can arrive.




Thank you for all the great information and support!! I definately appreciate it all.

Just one more question for you........ How did you become such an expert?

Ok.....I lied....... just thought of a couple more questions....

Are the ich spots you see on your fish the adult parasite?
Can they be scraped off the fish without damaging the fish? (not that I want to just curriouse)

Can YAWNING be cause by Ich? If not what can cause Yawning?

Thanks again!! You ALL have been great!

Trinket is such an expert because she is actually a real goldfish. Truly.

Is the salt you are using either aquarium salt, rock salt, or kosher? You cannot use table salt or salt with any anti-caking agents.

Yawning can be a symptom of gill flukes. Almost all new fish from the lfs come home with them, and should be QT'd with Prazi because of that. But you have the Prazi on the way and that's what you would use to treat for flukes also.

Good luck and I hope your fish are better soon!

Trinket the goldfish....she'll love this ....lol..koko's has there own talking ,typing goldfish..

That's Trinket's picture in her avatar, right? She's so cuuuute!!

Yawning can be caused by ich, yes. It can be a symptom of other parasites as well - like flukes as Vickie said. It can also be lack of oxygen or poor water quality. Your test readings look fine, so that doesn't seem to be a problem.

I'm sure the goldfish - I mean - Trinket will be back to answer your other questions soon.
Good luck with your fish!

Debbie

Trinket IS really a goldfish?? That explains so much!!

Thank you ladies for the hummor you brought to this thread!! It made me laugh and I definately needed that!!!!

Just a quick up date as of tonight:

ET (the moore) is happily swimming around right side up in the breeding net I bought. He seems to have made a really big improvement from Friday night. Only thing now is the clouds on his eyes and still possibly pop eye.

Every one is eating and no one has white poo today. I fasted them since friday night since none of them would eat anyway. And since ET was up and about I thought I would just see what he would do with a couple of peices of food. He doesn't seem to see it falling but when it is on the bottom of his breading net he gobbles it right up. The other fish swim up underneath the net and tryed to eat the food too so I gave them some and they all seem to be back to eating. No one spit anythng back out and the two are sucking rocks now to get every crumb of what they were given.

Lil-O (oranda) was bottom sitting this morning but has been swimming ever since I fed her today...... so fasting makes her lazy. Spike (orandaX) is no longer hanging at the top of the tank but he likes to bulldog the breeding basket trying to free ET (Moore).

I plan to keep ET in the basket until I know what to do for his eyes as I don't think he sees really well right now. He used to target food falling really well but with his eyes 1/2 clouded over he seems to have lost that ability. And he stresses very easily when you try to catch him but so far seems happy to be in the basket so I will leave him there for now.

I netted Spike today and those spots I thougtht were Ich look more like white colored spots or freckles in the tail. I don't know what Ich really looks like up close but if it is a parasite I would think it would be raised up off of the fin...... ??? Any one tell me what it would look like if it were Ich? I am starting to think it is scars or something.

Which means I treated with salt for no reason.... and Spot (the fantail that choked) and ET suffered the ill effects of salt for no reason. Overwhelming Guilt. (Hummor was greatly appreciated)

For now I am planning on doing lots of waterchanges and wait to see what is suggested by Trinket the goldfish with all the answers can tell me later.

Funny thing is -- ever since I treated with salt -- someone told me it could be deadly for my little dwarf pleco -- my pleco has been all over my tank all day today. I have seen him more this afternoon than I think I have seen him since I got him!! Maybe he had been ill too and that 0.3% salt bath that they had for a day did him some real good too. Could the salt have done something for the algea growth?? The pleco is way more active and friendly -- I stuck my hand in to retrieve the food container and my pleco came to my hand to check it out so just to see if he would do it, I held his algea waffer and he sat on my fingers while he munched away on his algea waffer. Normally he hides all the time and runs like he is terrified when I clean the tank. I am still watching him for signs of aggression towards my goldies, but I really don't think he started any of this.

Thanks again gals!! You are great support, I hope Trinket appreciates you. I know I do!!

To answer your question the salt I used to salt my tank had been API Aquarium Salt. That is what I have had on hand since I got these fish. I had to buy a second container when I decided to salt for Ich and I think there is something different about the salt in the new container. It is kinda yellow compared to the original box of salt. I just can't bring myself use it again. I think I may take it to a friend of mine at the University and see if he can test it and tell me the actual contents.

I am thinking of using the canning salt this next time around.... I am going to do a couple more days of water changes just to make sure I have all the salt out of my tank so I don't have a salt creep or salt OD issue.

Thanks for asking Vickielm!!

The yellow sounds suspicious for sure. Could it be YPS (Yellow prussiate of soda)? Wow, you have somebody who could do tests! Would be interesting to hear if you do it, what the results are.

I use that brand, too, but I'll check it next time I buy some for color.

Yes the parasites on the fish are the mature adults and they drop off and the larval forms hatch out in the gravel or on the bottom of the tank. There are non visible larval forms attached all over the fish and possibly in the gills too so scraping off the parasites is not going to eliminate the ich and would damage the slime coat which is the fishes protective barrier between itself and all kinds of bacteria and toxins in all water.

Yawning is the fishes response to the need to clear its gills. It can mean several things, all of them related to gill health.

And yes, it is true,....all the Mods and helpers are goldfish. We are between 5 feet and 6 feet large goldfish and as well as being able to talk and type...(our fins have evolved points with nails) ..we also HAVE BIG TEETH hehehehehe

Tinker please don't come after me with those BIG TEETH of yours!! I really had no intention to try to scrape off the Ich parasites. I understand the slime coat thing. I was just thinking about that last night when I was looking at the fish up close and his spots are completely flat to the fins. If what he has is Ich there would be no possible way to "scrape" it off the fin without making a hole in the fin.

OH, ABOUT MY SALT!!!!! I took the box of salt to my buddy at the university to see if he could test it and tell me if it was just pure salt. I explained the reason I wanted it tested, and he decided to have his class do a project on it. Each student was given a small container of the salt and a couple of chemical compounds to check for. Once one of them was confirmed he gave them new lists and they are still testing and compiling a list of everything they can find (that is deadly for fish). Once they had the first possitive result for toxins my buddy called me and told me to get home and remove my fish from the aquarium ASAP, they will be dead in less than 2 to 4 hours. I guess he didn't realize that I had already done MANY 80% water changes. The chemicals are common in cleaning agents such as Dishwasher detergent, degreasers, some laundry prespot stuff, and other stuff. He is going to continue to test the salt for other things to see if he can narrow down and define exactly what kind of cleaner contaminated the salt. He is also in the process of testing the container material (little milk carton) and the seams in the container to see if it was packed in the box or if the chemicals soaked in from the outside. He asked where I bought it and proceeded to call them imediately to have the rest of the stock pulled and marked that it should not be sold. Being a chain store they said they are pulling it imediately but that they need to contact the corporate office to find out the proper handling of the problem -- but until they are TOLD they have to put it back on the shelf they will refuse to refill the shelves with the current stock. My chemist buddy told me to remove anything from the tank that is porouse or could absorb the chemicals. so my BioWheel, filter cartridge, my rocks, decorations -- are all pulled. The biowheel and filter will definately have to be replaced, I don't know if my rocks can be successfully be detoxified or my decorations, or the sillicone sealant of the tank. The nice part of it is the store I bought the salt from has offered to replace whatever I bring in to them and that will include the aquarium.

My buddy also told me that it was my fast actions that saved my fish. He thinks it is amazing that I only lost one fish out of all of them. ::reminder: The fish that passed away is the one that choked on a piece of blue fuzzy stuff.::: He would like to do a "fin snip" of each fish for annalisys.... to see how much of the chemicals are in their system. We have decided not to do that since we don't need to add anymore undue stress on the fishes right now. They are currently living in a big plastic storage tub (given to me by the store for temporary housing) with an old filter that is not big enough but by tomorrow I will have a different cycled filter to add to the tub, my chemist buddy had goldies at home and is going to lend me a good filter to help filter the waste from the water........ he beleives the fish will continue to leach the chemicals back into the water as they detoxify themselves. He thinks we should treat the water with salt to help destress them and he thinks it will speed up the detoxification process. Hmmmmmmmm let me think, do I want to add salt again right now????? I really don't think so!! We will be doing 2-3 @ 50% water changes for the next couple of days to a week as he beleives that will be how long it takes to clear their system. He sadly thinks that the chemical exposer may have done some permanent damage to possibly their gills or maybe internal organs. He also thought they would have died already so he admits he may be wrong about the permanant damage too. I like a man that can admit he may be wrong!!

So now I know it was the salt......... and if by being "obsessive and way to cautious" (as my hubby calls me) saved the lives of my little fishes, I will continue to obsess and err in favor of safety for as long as my fishes will choose to keep me as their human.!!


THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP AND SUPPORT! I will let you know what comes of the salt carton and if it was contaminated at the plant or if it could have gotton contaminated in shipping some where. THANKS AGAIN!!

oh my gosh zookey !!!!!!that is crazy !!!! I use coarse salt ..now that I think about it why would anybody give a dang about actual aquarium salt .maybe it is safe to assume it is better to use uniodized salt used for human consumption ..but then again think of all the recalls of all things lately ..food ..toys for kids ..I need not to go on ..good call on the salt ..you thought it looked strange you should be proud of yourself .sorry you had to lose a fish through the ordeal..I hope you get to the bottom of things. was this the API salt ? I hope you make some phone calls and keep the box ..just incase

Yes this was API salt. Like I said though my Chemist buddy is analizing the box and seams to see if it is the falt of API's packaging department (a cleaner used on the machinerey) or if something got spilled on it in trasportation to the local store. We have called API and talked to the ....... somebody -- name and number by the phone........ they were very appreciative and asked for some number stamped in the carton - I assume it tells them when and where it was packed. We told them what we were doing and they said they deeply appreciate it but they want to run their own tests as soon as I can ship it to them with our findings. Very nice person and very compationate about the trouble I have had. I will keep you all updated!!

Thanks again for all the advise, help, and emotional support!!

Wow what great detective work!! I also use kosher (coarse) salt when I need to salt, but who ever knows what is in anything these days.

Great job and you should be proud of yourself. I would definitely make sure API is informed of what has gone on here.

Zookey, that is incredible. You know, it reminds me of a few months ago when I was trying to get a filter from Pet ~ Smart. They didn't have the size that I wanted on the shelf, and said to call the next day because they'd be getting a shipment that morning. I called and they said it was in, but not on the shelf. After several days of this, I asked why it wasn't on the shelf if it came in - and they said that they had a little accident in the storage or shipping room, and things fell over/broke and it was a mess back there, so they needed time to clean it up.
Since they're SO careful there, I could imagine how easy it would be for chemicals to get all over other products. How sad for people who trust the stores to sell safe products for their pets.

Yes, please keep us posted as to what they find! You've probably saved a lot of fish by having them pull that from the shelf! Good job!!

Debbie

My fish seem really active and quite happy today! My chemist buddy was really surprised to see them swimming this morning! He also said I was lucky I had only used "a little" (about 8 or 10 teaspoons) of this salt instead of an entire dose as that it would have killed the fish almost instantly.

ET's eyes seem a little clearer but I am wondering if he has lost some of his site...... hard to tell. I will be feeding them the medicated food when it comes just to be on the safe side and who knows maybe ET and Spot did have some kind of bacterial disorder along with the bad salt. That could explain why it affected ET so differently than Spike or Lil-O... I am just happy they are all still with me!!

The salt was API Aquarium salt (they have been notified) -- and my chemist buddy has determined that the contaminant was one of two household cleaners...... that pretty much rules out the factory as they would use Industrial Cleaners which commonly have one chemical that the salt tested negative for. It is almost certain that the contaminant came into the container during shipping. So please don't all rush out and replace your API salt!! This is more than likely an isolated incident!! I suggest that if you open a new box of ANY KIND of salt and it looks any different than what it normally does just use caution and watch your fish for ANY sign of change in behavior.

I may end up with a 55 gallon aquarium set-up as the store only sells 30 gallon and 55 gallon tanks. It would also include 1 new filter box that holds 2 biowheels (advantage for the goldies). The store has made this decision at the Corporate Level!! The corporate office also has permanantly pulled their current stock of the salt and will be returning it to API so that it can't be resold anywhere else. They were also instructed by the corporate office to do a local recall of the salt so no one else will have issues with it. I really have to thank the department staff person who went above and beyond his possition to contact Corporate without going through his dept. head (who I have heard is a jerk and cares/knows nothing about fish). I don't know what would have happened with the salt if he would have gone through "propper" channels.

So for all of you who like to BASH Wal~Mart ...... I would like to let you know that the bad things that we associate with the chain has alot to do with the individual store and the employees -- because our store and its employees really do an outstanding job. I do understand that our store and our employees may be the exception to the standard but I have to appreciate them!

EDIT TO MY EARLIER POSTS!!!! I just realized I am abreviating the brand of the salt and maybe I shouldn't be. The salt I was using is made by Aquatic Pets International not Aquarium Pharmaceuticals!! I didn't even think about it until I noticed the Aquarium Phamaceuticals name on an amonia test I have. Sorry for any and all misunderstandings on the maker of this salt!! I wanted to go back and edit my other posts but I am unable to. Any chance a mod can do that? I don't want to mislead or misinform anyone in any way!!

I'm really glad they are doing somthing !!!even though I don't belive large corporate stores should carry live animals I do belive that most Wal~marts do go above and beyond for their customers..and that they would be able to pull the strings for recalls and to make things happen ..(don't poke the giant ) My husband works as a millwright at Breyers icecream and they do back flips for nnnnnn a very important contract they can't afford to lose .I'm glad your fish are doing better ..I would put some stress coat in to portect them a bit and to sooth .your fish may start to develope black spots if they were burned by the chemicals .don't be alarmed this is an indication of healing ..I know I probably don't need to tell you this but after such an ordeal keep your water sqeeky clean to prevent any secondary infections your fish will most likly be extra sensitive to anything for a while.. good luck !!!!!!

yep a mod or a helper should be able to do that ..don't worry ..

I thought about adding something for their slime coat but my chemist buddy said that I shouldn't so that the fish can "leach" out the chemicals in their system and not have it trapped close to their scales/skin by the slime coat. I am using a water conditioner......... from the DNR buddy........ that is suppose to help wild fish battle with pollution and parasites. I wonder if that helped protect the fish from the chemicals alittle in the first place??

So far there doesn't seem to be any markings on the fish that would make me think they were burned in anyway.....but it has only been a about a week (give or take a day or two).

Beleive me, I have been watching my fish like a hawk since all of this started!! Just ask my husband!!! He thinks I am "obsessive" now!!

it's a healthy obsessive ...thats what I say to my husband anyways

A Healthy Obsession. I will have to remember that the next time he starts his $#*!.

I've said this before ..My hubby has many hobbies from dirtbike racing ,building bikes and drag cars ..his hobby or hobbies are far more exspensive than mine so he really can't say much ...all I have to do is raise an eyebrow ...

FYI -- Tonight my Moore's eyes are almost completely cleared of any fog. As far as his Popeye goes. I am still not sure if the eye is actually protruding abnormally or if his eyes have always been disproportionate. I have medicated food on the way to feed them all just as a precaution after their ordeal and I bought some of that JumpStart, vitamin enriched food for helping fish get over illness, also. I figured it really couldn't help to build them all back up a little. I do know that the Moore's eye does not look like any picture I have ever seen of popeye (other than protruding) there is no swelling or white stuff or inability to move it, it just sticks out a bit further than the other. He has apparently sustained some sight loss. I don't know if that will improve with time but I will keep watching. He can no longer seem to target food at feeding time, but the large Oranda X will nudge the Moore to the food so he at least has a chance to eat. The moore on the other had will "bite" anything that comes close enough to his mouth checking to see if it is food. (not as much toningt as it has been in the last days could be the site is clearing more as the clouds are clearing, I don't know) The other fish don't seem to mind being "bit". They actually don't even seem to notice. No fin damage is being done.

Everyone else seems to be healthy and happy. YAY!! YAY!! YAYA!! YAY!!

Hooray !!!!! I wouldn't worry about the eyes being not equal my one celestial is that way same with my daughters fish it's just the way they are ..

Today my Moore's eyes are completely clear of any clouding!! And apparently he can see normally again. He targets his food and has quit "tasting" anything near him. He has also taken up the game of "chicken". He will race across the tub at full speed (which isn't really that fast for this moore) toward the other fish and veer off just before a collision can occure. The other fish just sit really still while he does this. He gets tired of it after a little while and everyone goes on with fish life as normal in a plastic tub.

I think I may be loosing my pleco, though. He just isn't himself after all of this. Today he won't suck the side of the tub and won't even eat the algea tabs. I put him in a floater to make sure the Goldies weren't snarfing his algea tabs but he is just not interested. He also has a large spot on top of his body infront of the dorsal fin that looks like the skin will shed. I am wondering if it is a chemical burn from the stuff in the salt. He is just really not looking very good. I guess we just keep doing what we are doing and see if he perks up or not.

Thanks again to all of you who helped me out and held my hand while my tank had such troubles. I do really appreciate you all!

Can Moore eyes become "dislocated" per say? I was watching my moore last night I think he was sleeping - just being really still - he turned his eyes and the one kind of sucked back into his head a bit. (that is the eye I thought was popeye). So when he was stuck between the oranment and the tank could he have banged his eye or head and caused his eye to become dislocated?

Well whatever, he is fine now!!!!!!!

Thanks again.

By the way....... any mod that reads this......... you can move this to the non 911 section. My emergency has finally come to an end. I do appreciate everyones help and understanding.

I'm so glad that things are going better for you and your fish!
I don't know anything about moore's eyes, so I can't offer any advice or opinions there.
Keep up the good work!!

Debbie

All I know about their eyes are they are bulgy!!

Hey thanks to whomever moved this out of the 911 listings! I really appreciate all of the help I got and the support from all of the members here!!