Hi:
I'm hoping to get some specific advice on ridding our new tank of ammonia. I've read so many forum postings and advice articles, but I haven't found any advice that would help my specific case.

We set up our 29-gallon Top Fin tank on Jan. 7. Filter is Model 30, which came with the tank. We treated the water with StressZyme (6 tsp.) and 3 tsp. of StressCoat. On Jan. 11, we added 6 tsp. of StressZyme and 4 small plants (argentine swordfish). On Jan. 12 we added a Black Moor (Lucky) and a Calico Ryukin (Tiger Woods). They seemed disease-free and very happy.

On Jan. 14, we changed 10% of the water and added 1.5 ml of StressCoat. On Jan. 17, the water looked cloudy, and an ammonia test revealed ammonia between .25 and .5 ppm. We changed 25% of the water and added 6 tsp. of StressZyme. On Jan. 21, we did another 10% water change. After that, the ammonia level was at .25 ppm. By Jan. 24 the ammonia was back up to .5.

On Jan. 26 I did a 25% water change and another 3 tsp of StressZyme. Lucky had a few weird looking scales -- they were white or maybe just scratched. (He doesn't see too well, and it wasn't Ich because the spots were large and only 2 of them.) Afterward, I added 15 ml of AmmoLock. I knew that would mess up the ammonia readings, but I was feeling like the fish were in danger of ammonia poisoning.

On Feb. 1, we did another 25% water change and added StressCoat. On Feb. 2, we changed the filter and added more StressZyme. I didn't seat the filter properly, so the tank became very cloudy. On Feb. 4, I added more StressZyme and did a 25% water change. On Feb. 6, I did a 50% water change and added 58 drops of Crystal Clear to clear up the tank. I also added more AmmoLock and StressZyme.

On Feb. 10, the water had cleared up very well. I added more AmmoLock, and today (2/13) we did another 10% water change.

So, since AmmoLock keeps giving me these outrageous ammonia readings (8 ppm), I have no idea what to do about the controlling ammonia. The fish are very active, eat well (we feed them a little fish flakes twice a day), and seem very happy still. I don't have a nitrite/nitrate test kit.

Do I need a bigger filter? If I stop putting AmmoLock in the tank, will my ammonia readings decrease, or will the toxic ammonia return?

Thanks for any advice.

Hey sweetie and welcome to koko's! Can you test the water parameters and post them for us. They're EXTREMELY important in beginning to solve you issues. There's a few rules of thumb you should stick to when keeping goldfish.

#1 Fancy GF (Having 2 tails) need a minimum of 10gallons per fish. (You got that covered)
#2 In a GF tank you need 10x the gallons per hour of filtration for every 1 gallon of water. (Translation- you've got 29g tank so you need a filter that turns over at least 290 gallons of water per hour (gph)
#3 Always assume that a new fish is sick. Fish catch disease and parasites very easily in enclosed systems where new things are always being introduced to them. Like the pet store. They don't sterilize tanks between shipments.

Water changes are always a good idea in most cases. In a new tank that has fish in it you should be testing the water every day and changing it about once everyday to every other day depending on the test results.

Once your tank cycles the hard work stops but you should still change about 50% of the water twice a week.

Hello. I see Ryuu has welcomed you and covered some of the basics.
I would just like to add that what you are experiencing is New Tank Syndrome. When your first start up a new tank you do not yet have a bacterial colony to eat and convert your fishes toxic waste (ammonia) into more harmless waste (nitrate) This process is called the Nitrogen Cycle and usually takes about 4-6 weeks to establish.
During this time the only solution is to make large water changes every day to reduce ammonia (and later) nitrite levels.
It is not helpful to use Ammo-lock; the reason is that this product locks away the ammonia which, although keeping the fish ammonia-free, robs the filter bacteria of the nutrition they need to grow and so you will not be able to establish a proper colony. If you click on the links below my signature, you will be able to get a more in depth explanation of how this process works.
So my advice would be to forget the ammo-lock. Like Ryuu says, just test the water every day and change enough water to keep the readings for ammonia and nitrIte as close to zero as you can. It is very boring and time consuming for a few weeks, but at the end of it you will have a biologically mature filter to deal with the waste and will only need to change water once a week. The volume changed eventually should be guided by your nitrAte levels - 50% is a good target.
Do let us know if you have any other questions.

Thank you both VERY much for your good advice, and sorry for the delay in responding -- I had to go out of town. I had a feeling that AmmoLock was not really helping me much, but I was so worried that I would kill the goldfish before stabilizing the tank. I don't have a nitrate/nitrite test kit, so before I post those readings, I'll go out and buy one. More to come, and thanks again!

Hi again:
Just when I thought things were stabilizing, my black moor has come down with Ich. I guess the culprit is the high ammonia levels, which I thought I had been able to bring down. I bought a test kit for all water paramaters, and as of today, after a 25% water change, here are the numbers:

Ammonia: 4 ppm (but is that a false reading because of the AmmoLock? I haven't added AmmoLock since 2/13, though)
GH: 120
KH: between 30 and 40
pH: 7.0
N02: 3
N03: 20

On 3/1, N02 was 0, and I changed the filter because it had been 4 weeks since the last change. I didn't test the ammonia because I thought the AmmoLock would cause a false high reading. That day, we also bought a new fish, thinking the water quality was good (that makes 3 goldfish for a 29-gallon tank).

So. I've read that you shouldn't treat for Ich unless the ammonia level is 0. I plan on doing daily water changes (is 50% too much?) until the ammonia is 0, but in the mean time, will my fish die of Ich?

I'm so frustrated!
Thanks in advance for your help.

Hi goreysgold and welcome!

An ammonia reading of 4 probably isn't a false reading in a cycling tank that isn't getting daily water changes. As Pixie and RYUU stated, your fish are in New Tank Syndrome. This is a very tricky and dangerous time for your fish, and any stress or weakness will cause the ich to attach to your fish, as they are opportunistic parasites that are present in almost every tank.

Pixie or Olivia would be more experienced in advising you about treating the ich, but in order to get the ammonia down, you are going to have to do large daily, and sometimes twice a day, water changes. Temperature matched and ph matched to avoid any further stress to the fish. And once you lick the ammonia, then you get to fight the nitrites which are just as dangerous to your goldies as the ammonia. Sigh. It is a terrible pain in the , but once you get it cycled, you can relax and enjoy your pets knowing that they are in a safe and healthy environment.

I have a 30 gallon and when I was cycling I sometimes tested and did 2-3 wcs a day for a while, anywhere from 40-50%. It is monotonous and the testers are expensive, but after a few weeks of this you'll be able to let up some.

I'm sure Pixie or RYUU will be along soon and give you some feedback about how to handle the ich.

Good luck!

What do you have in your filter that you changed? The filter manufacturer's will recommend that you change the filter pad/cartridge every 4 weeks but that is usually totally unecessary. You were just doing what the directions said though, so don't fault yourself! If you only have a small amount of media (materials that grow good bacteria for your tank) in your filter and ytou change them, you are getting rid of all that good bacteria every time and restarting the cycling process.

What kind of media does your filter have in it? Usual things are sponges, filter pads, sometimes they will come with ceramic cylinders/noodles, there are other types too. To grow a really good colony of good bacteria you need lots of good media and that must never be thrown out, changed or washed with tap water. Chlorine in tap water kills good bacteria. Most filters, especially ones that come with tank set ups, do not have enough media for a good bacteria colony to grow, so you might want to pick up some ceramic cylinders/noodles to shove in there. If there is carbon/charcoal in your filter you will not need it, it is really only good for removing medications and takes up valuable space for good bacteria to grow-better to use that space for ceramic cylinders or otehr media. When your filter pad gets all mucky, simply pull it out and swish it around in a bowl of used tank water (or dechlorinated tap water). Once the pad starts actually falling apart, then you can change it out for a new one. This will save you a lot of money too! Anything else in the filter that needs rinsing should always be done with old tank water or dechlorinated tap water.

Another thing that will help while you are cycling, and save you money in the long run, is to buy some Prime water conditioner. It is pricier than some of the others but will take the place of StressZyme/Stress Coat and do much more for your fish. It is also very concentrated so you will use less and over time it will save you money. Prime will remove chlorine and make the water safe for your fish when changing water, and it also detoxifies ammonia and nitrites while cycling. It is AWESOME for cycling a tank. If you can't afford it now, you can keep using Stress Coat and Stress Zyme, but the Prime will help your fish more and only requires a small amount as opposed to several teaspoons each time.

OK, I always talk too much-keep testing your water and try and get your ammonia and nitrites as close to 0 as possible, once nitrates start to show up that is a good sign that your cycle is taking hold and things will get MUCH easier.

Here are some great links to read since you are new to this and seem like you are willing to do what it takes to have healthy fish. Congrats on your new fish and doing such a good job!

Here are some important things to read on caring for goldfish:
10 steps to a healthy goldfish: http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/tensteps.html
All about goldfish: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=11275
Cycling the tank: http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/cycle.html

Also, on the ich, salt is usually the best thing to treat it with-but if your water conditions are poor it will be very hard to get rid of. You have to use salt with no additives, where the only ingredient listed is SALT. Kosher, ice cream, pickling, sometimes rock salts will usually work, just read the label. Aquarium salts are fine too but are more expensive. You want to add one teaspoon per gallon every 12 hours until you have done this three times, so the total salt is .03% in your tank. So for a 30 gallon you would add 30 teaspoons, wait 12 hour and add 30 more, then wait another 12 and add 30 more. Pull some tank water out with a bowl and mix the salt in it, don't pour directly in the tank or into the filters. It may take a lot of water to dissolve the salt. You will need to replace the salt everytime you do a water change, so once you have it at .03% if you take out 50% of the water, you will need to add back in 45 teaspoons to keep it at the same level. It helps to write down the salt amounts to keep track, because oversalting can be harmful as well. Warm temps help speed the life cycle of ich too, so if you have the cash, a heater can help, just be sure to raise the tempgradually and I think 80 F degrees is the max, but I would wait for confirmation on that. The last thing that will help is to vaccuum the gravel/tank bottom a lot to get the ich out of there. You want5 to vaccuum the gravel at least weekly anyway, the more the better with ich. If you can afford to buy a Python-type siphon this will help you immenselty with water changes and gravel vaccuming. NOTE: With Ammo-lock you may need to remove it completely before adding the salt-check the package. Some ammonia products release ammonia back into the tank when salt is added which could really harm your fish.

Oops, that second link I posted doesn't work, here is the correct link http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=11275

Sorry for yet another post-a few things I forgot:

Don't worry about adding anything for cloudy water, that is normal when the water is cycling and you get a bacterial bloom, you always want to add less to the tank rather than more. Changing out your filter may have sent you back a few steps depending on what you changed (although it is not your fault!), but you will be on the right track now.

I have never heard of not treating for ich when there is ammonia, although the water needs to be as close to perfect as possible for fish to recover, so that is sort of true. But I have never heard of not treating until the ammonia is gone, as I think that will be detrimaental to your fish since it will be awhile before your tank is cycled. So I would go ahead with the salt treatment I explained above, and please ask if you have questions (but check on the ammo-lock before adding salt, like I said above). :-)

Your next few weeks will be spent doing lots of water changes, probably at least daily, until your tank is cycled (0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 5-10 nitrates). If you get good media, don't clean out the filters (like i explained above), use a good water conditioner like Prime or Amquel Plus, and make life easier for yourself by getting a good siphon/gravel vaccuum (pythons that hook to the sink are even easier) it will be over before you know it and your maintenance level will go WAY DOWN and your fish will be on the road to a healthy life!

Hi again - you disappareared!

Everything Jen has told you is absolutely right. (where have you been, Jen?)

I think were a few basic wrong turns which lead to your current state of affairs; the first was not changing water nearly enough , the second was to keep using ammo-lock (interupts the cycle) and lastly changing out the filter and with it the bacteria which make the cycle work.
You need to do big water changes every day when cycling a tank - if the ammo is high, just change the water until it is as close to 0 as poss - don't add ammo-lock to deal with it. Sometimes this can mean you need to do a 75% or even more. If after a w/c you still have a reading of ammo 4 / nit 3 then you just need to change the whole lot!

You must, as jen said, raise salt to 0.3% immediately to deal with the ich - your fish are stressed and weakened from such high ammonia and will be succumb much more quickly.

It will be hard work, as you must always add back any salt removed during changes. Lots of water and salt changes for the next couple of weeks.
NB. Add an airstone for extra oxygenation and raise the heat to 80 to speed up the ich life-cycle.

Well there you go goreysgold!

You couldn't have any better advice that what you got from jen and Pixie!

Be sure and keep us posted on your progress or any problems, and again, good luck!


PS - Hey Vickie - I forgot to say - I realised you didn't mean that she shouldn't treat ich with ammonia in the water, but that ich meds shouldn't be used with ammonia readings. And that is absolutely right.

Wow -- lots of good advice. Thanks to everyone for the great information! I had no idea that it would be this difficult to have fish -- we were just trying to appease our kids by giving them some kind of pet, since we're not interested in having dogs, cats, etc. But I've grown quite attached to our three goldfish, and so has my husband, so we'll do whatever is necessary to keep them healthy. I hope it's not too late...

Thanks again!

Hi again:
I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to give such valuable advice. I'm happy to report that, after many, many water changes and a jar of canning salt, we seem to be Ich free, and the ammonia level in the tank is 0 ppm! We followed your advice and added salt to the water (29 tsp. for a 29-gallon tank) and increased the water temperature to 78 degrees (I was too scared to go up to 80). Twelve hours later we did another large water change and added more salt (compensating for the water change + 29 tsp more). And in another 12 hours, we did the same thing. After that, we did a 25% water change every day, adding enough salt to keep the level at .03%. Every time we've done the water change, we've vaccuumed the gravel carefully. This is the sixth day with the salt, so tomorrow, we'll do another large water change and not add salt and reduce the water temp. to slowly get back to normal. Hopefully, that's the correct procedure. It seems to be working because there are no Ich spots on any of the fish, and they seem their usual, happy selves. (BTW, they never seemed lathargic during this whole process, and their appetites were as hearty as usual!)

Now, the other nagging question in my mind: what about the pH level? After buying a more extensive test kit, here are some readings:
GH: 60
KH: 0
pH: 6.5
N02: .5
N03: 40
Ammonia: 0

I guess I need to do something to increase the pH level in the tank, but I'm afraid of doing anything to mess up the balance. Thanks again for the help.

Hello!
I'm so glad that your fish are doing so well! Great job!
As for your tank readings, I'm no expert with pH issues, but there are a few threads in the "water quality" section in the "tanks" forum. I'm not certain - and others could explain better - but you have no KH, so it will be hard to keep your pH stable. You can get crushed coral to help with the pH, and you'll need baking powder to raise it. The coral keeps it stable. (Jack of Hearts is better at this than I am.... ) He uses a product called "Buff it Up" (I think...?) I'll pm him and ask him to double check my post.
Your no2 and no3 are a bit high, so you'll want to do a water change to bring them down. no2 should stay as close to 0 as possible, and no3 is best below 20. Since your no3 is at 40, a 50% water change would bring it to 20, so you might want to do a little more than 50%.

Keep up the good work!!!

Debbie

Which test kit did you use to get these readings?

Where do you live? In the Southeastern part of the US?

pH of 6.5 and a KH of close to 0 is a pH crash waitin' to happen.

A pH crash is when a pH suddenly drops 2 or more points. One point on a pH scale is 10 folds. So a 2 point drop means the water just became 100X more acidic. This will shock and possibly kill your goldies.

The ideal pH is 7.4, which is also the pH of their blood. You can use baking soda to gradually raise your pH. However, with your non-existent kH, it will not be able to sustain it. Baking soda will raise the KH for a while. You need to get some crushed corals to help sustain the KH and the pH.

Remember, the Baking soda raises your pH and the Crushed Coral helps to sustain the pH.

I use Buff it Up. I use it to raise my pH from 6.8 to 7.6, my KH from 35.8 to 89.5. It will sustain the pH & the KH rock steady for an entire week(which is the longest one should go without WCs anyway). The baking soda will raise the pH and the KH similarly but it will not hold it rock steady like Buff it Up will. If you use baking soda, you will need the crushed corals.

The pH of 6.5 is not good for Goldies but not life threatening. The combination of your 6.5 pH and your non-existent KH is what makes it so dangerous.

Thank you both for responding. I live just outside of Baltimore, MD. I don't know what that means for water quality in fish tanks. I used the basic nnnn API test kit to get my GH, KH, pH readings (the strip that you swish in the water and it gives instant readings). If I do a pH test using a stand-alone test (another API product), I get a pH closer to 7.0. We waited 7 days after we last spotted Ich on our fish to start removing the salt and lowering the water temp. so today I will re-test. I'll look into using Buff it Up. Thanks again!